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Iamit
17-05-2017, 06:52 PM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality. Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now. There is nowhere else for those thoughts or feelings to arise. So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading. What a relief that is! Imagine having to work out whether you are in the now or not while you are falling over a cliff or enjoying your breakfast:)

Baile
17-05-2017, 07:14 PM
So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading.That's an interesting thought but you're misspeaking here I'd say. These paths aren't misleading. Rather and like all things, it is the human being, intellectualizing about these practices rather than simply living them, who misinterprets, misunderstands, and misleads. In the same way people blame the religion, when its the fundamentalist followers and their interpretation of the holy book who are at fault.

And yes, the present moment or now is the physical-material reality human beings experience. (Although we cannot say for certain that's the case with, say, an ascended master, who may in fact have evolved a different, alt-dimensional relationship to past, present and future.) But is it truly impossible to not be in the now? That's a question. A person suffering from the torment of deep regret, is living in the past. Yes, they are physically in the present, that is true. But it is also a reality that their mind, their psyche, and their emotional life, are all chained to the past. For all intents and purposes, that person IS existing in a past reality.

Iamit
18-05-2017, 12:12 AM
That's an interesting thought but you're misspeaking here I'd say. These paths aren't misleading. Rather and like all things, it is the human being, intellectualizing about these practices rather than simply living them, who misinterprets, misunderstands, and misleads. In the same way people blame the religion, when its the fundamentalist followers and their interpretation of the holy book who are at fault.

And yes, the present moment or now is the physical-material reality human beings experience. (Although we cannot say for certain that's the case with, say, an ascended master, who may in fact have evolved a different, alt-dimensional relationship to past, present and future.) But is it truly impossible to not be in the now? That's a question. A person suffering from the torment of deep regret, is living in the past. Yes, they are physically in the present, that is true. But it is also a reality that their mind, their psyche, and their emotional life, are all chained to the past. For all intents and purposes, that person IS existing in a past reality.

ISness (or Beingness) is The Now so to say that someone IS existing in the past is a contradiction in terms.

Its not possible to have it both ways. If it is accepted that there is only The Now then that applies to all manifestations whether it is an evolved master or someone chained in the past. Both occur in The Now.

So there is nowhere else to be and any practise that suggest there is somewhere that is not The Now which needs to be avoided, is advocating an impossible task. It is advantageous if that is the case for one is then liberated from the burden of having to work out whether one is in The Now or not, a most beneficial consequence of the concept.

If you are not saying that there is only The Now then the distortion does not arise.

SaturninePluto
18-05-2017, 12:29 AM
And yes, the present moment or now is the physical-material reality human beings experience. (Although we cannot say for certain that's the case with, say, an ascended master, who may in fact have evolved a different, alt-dimensional relationship to past, present and future.) But is it truly impossible to not be in the now? That's a question. A person suffering from the torment of deep regret, is living in the past. Yes, they are physically in the present, that is true. But it is also a reality that their mind, their psyche, and their emotional life, are all chained to the past. For all intents and purposes, that person IS existing in a past reality.

I am not understanding the logic at the end of your paragraph, where you stated a person suffering from a feeling of torment and deep regret is living in the past.

My own perception is that the experience which may have caused the regret would take place in the past as the past experience, but if within the present one still feels the torment or regret then the emotion and thought itself is taking place in the now or present, or even is still taking place in the now and present.

If one feels regret about the past Now, then the feeling/thought is indeed happening within one's present moment. To change that feeling/thought it would require one to become aware of the feeling/thought of regret in the first instance and actively switch to another perception or thought frequency of a differing emotion or thought- in the present moment to change it.

Time occurs simultaneously. The past becomes our future- at times past experience affects future choices yes? The future is our present, anything that occurs in the "future" will indeed come to a climax of occurring in the now and present. And the present and the now? It would seem indeed a gift. It is where we actively make choices and change how we behave, think, and feel.

The past experiences happened at the present at the time, not in the sense of the past, future experiences will happen within that present and now, and the now? The present moment? Our pasts are culminating and are futures are happening right now. Thought to form- and matter, in a cycle of present experiences. To change one's present might it be safe to assume one must become aware of it?

Those are merely my thoughts on the subject posted here.

They may not resonate with everyone, but in that sense nor should they have to.

Blessings.

naturesflow
18-05-2017, 12:34 AM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality. Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now. There is nowhere else for those thoughts or feelings to arise. So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading. What a relief that is! Imagine having to work out whether you are in the now or not while you are falling over a cliff or enjoying your breakfast:)

Yes very true. The present moment is an all inclusive moment of anything or everything as that now exists as.

Human concepts of time often confuse the present moment of now with their need to make it fit or be something, so you find people avoiding or containing the now and causing more confusion to its awareness of what just is right now as it is.

And so naturally you get people like Baile who will open up their own containment of the now, trying to ascertain it is you are misspeaking because their own mind has determined parts of another person contained are living in a past reality. Yet that is all connected to the current now as it is as a complete source moving as that in the now.

Reality is what the now is as a complete source of itself, regardless of time.

FallingLeaves
18-05-2017, 02:21 AM
Yes very true. The present moment is an all inclusive moment of anything or everything as that now exists as.

Human concepts of time often confuse the present moment of now with their need to make it fit or be something, so you find people avoiding or containing the now and causing more confusion to its awareness of what just is right now as it is.

And so naturally you get people like Baile who will open up their own containment of the now, trying to ascertain it is you are misspeaking because their own mind has determined parts of another person contained are living in a past reality. Yet that is all connected to the current now as it is as a complete source moving as that in the now.

Reality is what the now is as a complete source of itself, regardless of time.

as someone said to me recently, it is all a matter of where you put your attention :smile:

Ground
18-05-2017, 04:27 AM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality.
Of course if one believes in 'The Now' as one may believe in 'oneness' then a sentiment of 'reality' as true existence of 'The Now' may arise temporarily.
But that is only a temporary antidot to believing in past and future similar to watching a nice movie. As soon as everyday activities start and you get involved in conventional everyday conversation then past, present and future will arise again and 'The Now' bursts like a bubble and is revealed to be nothing other than a dream image.


Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now. There is nowhere else for those thoughts or feelings to arise.
That isn't quite correct since once a thought or feeling has started its starting point is in the past and it continues in the present and if it is not stopped it will continue in the future.

So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading. What a relief that is! Imagine having to work out whether you are in the now or not while you are falling over a cliff or enjoying your breakfast:)
Of course I know that the message you want to convey is that your path of auto-suggestive beliefs is the one and only path. :wink:

Iamit
18-05-2017, 10:04 AM
Yes very true. The present moment is an all inclusive moment of anything or everything as that now exists as.

Human concepts of time often confuse the present moment of now with their need to make it fit or be something, so you find people avoiding or containing the now and causing more confusion to its awareness of what just is right now as it is.

And so naturally you get people like Baile who will open up their own containment of the now, trying to ascertain it is you are misspeaking because their own mind has determined parts of another person contained are living in a past reality. Yet that is all connected to the current now as it is as a complete source moving as that in the now.

Reality is what the now is as a complete source of itself, regardless of time.

If The Now is regarded as the only reality then yes.

However there is not just one way that can be seen. It can be regarded as the only reality in an absolute sense (truth) or it can be a fictional reality within a fictional story about something called The Now that arises in the dream of difference. In the latter case it is not a truth but fiction because all that arises, from that non dual perspective, is an illusion of difference where there is no difference at all. As Kierkegaard would say it is not focussing so much on what is resonated with, but how it is resonated with.

This is simply to avoid The Truth Trap referred to in another thread and does not prevent a resonance with The Now because the idea that truth can be known has been transcended so whether it is the truth or not becomes irrelevant.

naturesflow
18-05-2017, 12:27 PM
If The Now is regarded as the only reality then yes.

However there is not just one way that can be seen. It can be regarded as the only reality in an absolute sense (truth) or it can be a fictional reality within a fictional story about something called The Now that arises in the dream of difference. In the latter case it is not a truth but fiction because all that arises, from that non dual perspective, is an illusion of difference where there is no difference at all. As Kierkegaard would say it is not focussing so much on what is resonated with, but how it is resonated with.

This is simply to avoid The Truth Trap referred to in another thread and does not prevent a resonance with The Now because the idea that truth can be known has been transcended so whether it is the truth or not becomes irrelevant.


Well certainly if you want to scrap everything, and live more present with what is, then really, it just is what is.

Baile
18-05-2017, 12:40 PM
I am not understanding the logic at the end of your paragraph, where you stated a person suffering from a feeling of torment and deep regret is living in the past.Regret is all about looking back into the past. If you're still unclear here, it's no doubt because you're using logic to try and decipher it. You need to engage using intuitive understanding. Or in Hermetic terms, apply wisdom that differentiates between relative truth versus absolute truth.

We live in the NOW. That is undeniable.
And yet someone psychologically locked in the torment of regret, lives in the PAST.
Both of these statements are realities of physical-material life. Both are true.

Iamit
18-05-2017, 04:48 PM
Well certainly if you want to scrap everything, and live more present with what is, then really, it just is what is.

Yes because if that is not done then one is left with the burden of wondering whether one is in The Now or not. Luckily it does not have to be done at all for The Now is the only option available for us to be in.

And thanks be for that. We have enough to concern ourselves with already like where the dog has taking my other sock:)

naturesflow
18-05-2017, 09:52 PM
Yes because if that is not done then one is left with the burden of wondering whether one is in The Now or not. Luckily it does not have to be done at all for The Now is the only option available for us to be in.

And thanks be for that. We have enough to concern ourselves with already like where the dog has taking my other sock:)


Indeed. There is only you in all that experiencing yourself with what is telling the story.

As it turns out the dog and sock is mine right now for me in the receiving and reading of your now moment.

Holy sock? Just think of it as your very blessed....:wink:

Iamit
18-05-2017, 10:39 PM
Indeed. There is only you in all that experiencing yourself with what is telling the story.

As it turns out the dog and sock is mine right now for me in the receiving and reading of your now moment.

Holy sock? Just think of it as your very blessed....:wink:

Blessed indeed.

I cannot utter a single word unless you speak:)

Gem
18-05-2017, 10:41 PM
Living in the past probably means that the mind is preoccupied with past events, so we talk of time in a psychological sense, but of course existence is present in terms of its conscious presence. If we contextualise that presence with time then we call it 'now'. If we contextualise that presence with being here, then we call it 'present'. Unsurprisingly then, the word 'present' takes on these two meanings - here & now

Seawolf
19-05-2017, 02:47 AM
The mind can be disconnected from the body, like being 'lost in negative thoughts' and becoms numb to body sensations. Shamanic cultures referred to this as becoming separated from the soul, which was usually in relation to some traumatic event. This is the basis for what we call psychiatric disorders today. It happens initially because the mind is trying to protect us from harm.

In modern times we use words like disassociation to describe this 'separated soul' phenonmenon. Usually we're not even aware we're doing it, until we start to practice getting back into the body with things like meditation.

Getting into the now is really about becoming aware of the body. Some people call it 'grounding'. This is the foundation of beginning to heal the past. The body stores emotional pain from the past, according to research.

wstein
19-05-2017, 03:22 AM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality. Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now. There is nowhere else for those thoughts or feelings to arise. So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading. What a relief that is! Imagine having to work out whether you are in the now or not while you are falling over a cliff or enjoying your breakfast:) Now is NOT the only reality, for most 'now' is the only part of reality they can affect. The point is to stay within the part of reality where you can take action (and affect things). To 'be' in other parts of reality is a waste of resources and a distraction from what you can do.

Best is to work out what is 'now' and live there always. That completely avoids the ineffective situation where you have to work out the now while in a crises situation.

As one learns/grows, their 'now' expands too.

Iamit
19-05-2017, 05:51 AM
Now is NOT the only reality, for most 'now' is the only part of reality they can affect. The point is to stay within the part of reality where you can take action (and affect things). To 'be' in other parts of reality is a waste of resources and a distraction from what you can do.

Best is to work out what is 'now' and live there always. That completely avoids the ineffective situation where you have to work out the now while in a crises situation.

As one learns/grows, their 'now' expands too.

Of course there may be some who do not regard 'now' as the only reality and believe one can somehow be 'in' the past or the future, that the past or the future are somehow happening now! There is a whole spiritual path based on that with a practise that claims to move one 'into' The Now from somewhere that is not the now.

Where is the the past and the future you call the other part of reality that is not the now? All that we can say about that is that we have our memories of the past and our imaginings about the future right here in the now but never actually experience either because by definition they are never happening 'now'.

Baile
19-05-2017, 09:17 AM
All that we can say about that is that we have our memories of the past and our imaginings about the future right here in the now but never actually experience either because by definition they are never happening 'now'.As is the case with almost every topic in this intellectually-overburdened Non-Duality forum, you seem intent in your singular interpretation, and show no interest in wanting to open things up to a spiritual dia-logue. Both Seawolf and wstein provided intriguing observations that could do that if one cared to, but alas.

"Shamanic cultures referred to this as becoming separated from the soul" as Seawolf pointed out, before wstein confirmed that "Now is NOT the only reality." Alas.

Iamit
19-05-2017, 10:47 AM
As is the case with almost every topic in this intellectually-overburdened Non-Duality forum, you seem intent in your singular interpretation, and show no interest in wanting to open things up to a spiritual dia-logue. Both Seawolf and wstein provided intriguing observations that could do that if one cared to, but alas.

"Shamanic cultures referred to this as becoming separated from the soul" as Seawolf pointed out, before wstein confirmed that "Now is NOT the only reality." Alas.

Its a familiar ploy. If there is disagreement, give up responding to the issues and attack the person who disagrees with you.

Sad.

naturesflow
19-05-2017, 11:02 AM
[QUOTE=wstein]Now is NOT the only reality, for most 'now' is the only part of reality they can affect. The point is to stay within the part of reality where you can take action (and affect things). To 'be' in other parts of reality is a waste of resources and a distraction from what you can do.

Best is to work out what is 'now' and live there always. That completely avoids the ineffective situation where you have to work out the now while in a crises situation.

As one learns/grows, their 'now' expands too.[/QUOTE

Why is Now not the only reality?

naturesflow
19-05-2017, 11:02 AM
Now is NOT the only reality, for most 'now' is the only part of reality they can affect. The point is to stay within the part of reality where you can take action (and affect things). To 'be' in other parts of reality is a waste of resources and a distraction from what you can do.

Best is to work out what is 'now' and live there always. That completely avoids the ineffective situation where you have to work out the now while in a crises situation.

As one learns/grows, their 'now' expands too.

Why is Now not the only reality?

slowsnake
19-05-2017, 11:55 PM
Hello,
I think in the now is really being content,satisfied with the/your status quo,like a Master who is neither happy or sad,wealthy or dirt poor,or is indifferent to suffering and pain, these ideas do not exist when you are " in the now "

Kind Regards Billy.

Shivani Devi
20-05-2017, 03:14 AM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality. Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now. There is nowhere else for those thoughts or feelings to arise. So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading. What a relief that is! Imagine having to work out whether you are in the now or not while you are falling over a cliff or enjoying your breakfast:)
I don't really think about being in the 'now'. I just let it all go with an affirmation:

https://156zni49nby62r9lbshm73b1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/the-past-is-history-the-future-is-a-mystery-today-6710-640x640.jpg

Ground
20-05-2017, 05:32 AM
Yes very true.
What you like isn't true because you like it. :wink:

wstein
20-05-2017, 06:16 AM
Of course there may be some who do not regard 'now' as the only reality and believe one can somehow be 'in' the past or the future, that the past or the future are somehow happening now! There is a whole spiritual path based on that with a practise that claims to move one 'into' The Now from somewhere that is not the now.

Where is the the past and the future you call the other part of reality that is not the now? All that we can say about that is that we have our memories of the past and our imaginings about the future right here in the now but never actually experience either because by definition they are never happening 'now'. First, time only applies to a tiny portion of reality. When I say there is more to reality than now, I am mostly referring to to parts out side of time, not so much to the 'past' and 'future'.

To get a better understanding about 'Where is the the past and the future', use 'here' as an analogy. You are standing on a road in a spot you refer to as 'here'. The rest of the road is still around at the same moment but as a human you don't have access to it. Sure perhaps you can remember being on different spots on the road you 'once' called 'here'. Likely you will be in other spots on the road you will 'then' call 'here'. But 'here' has no impact on the existence of the road, its only a spot you refer. The entire road exists independent of you or your label. If you happen to be near a hairpin in the road it might be possible to straddle the median and be in two spots on the road simultaneously. Still this has no implications on the presence of the entire road. 'Now' is exactly like 'here' but with one extra (time) dimension.

wstein
20-05-2017, 06:24 AM
Why is Now not the only reality? Because the 'now' of one thing (includes a being) is not the 'now' for another. Those other things are just as much a part of reality as each other.

In less abstract terms, I have a 'now' and you have a 'now' but they are not the same 'now'. Yet each of us has presence simultaneously. Still everyone's 'now' together is but a tiny portion of reality.

The universe is truly expansive, most of it essentially unoccupied (no 'things' there).

Iamit
20-05-2017, 11:12 AM
First, time only applies to a tiny portion of reality. When I say there is more to reality than now, I am mostly referring to to parts out side of time, not so much to the 'past' and 'future'.

To get a better understanding about 'Where is the the past and the future', use 'here' as an analogy. You are standing on a road in a spot you refer to as 'here'. The rest of the road is still around at the same moment but as a human you don't have access to it. Sure perhaps you can remember being on different spots on the road you 'once' called 'here'. Likely you will be in other spots on the road you will 'then' call 'here'. But 'here' has no impact on the existence of the road, its only a spot you refer. The entire road exists independent of you or your label. If you happen to be near a hairpin in the road it might be possible to straddle the median and be in two spots on the road simultaneously. Still this has no implications on the presence of the entire road. 'Now' is exactly like 'here' but with one extra (time) dimension.

Its a different point which does not relate to the now point but out of interest are you saying it is possible (for a person lets say) to be in 2 places at once?

Yes its clearer to refer to NOW as the present moment is time. So by definition of the terms being used it would not be possible to be in a past or future moment in time. The former has gone and the latter isn't here (or now:) yet so the NOW is all there is left available to be in unless you have in mind somewhere else in time that is available that is not NOW.

Why do I get the feeling that you are about to suggest just that:)

Interesting exchange. Thanks.

Iamit
20-05-2017, 11:28 AM
Hello,
I think in the now is really being content,satisfied with the/your status quo,like a Master who is neither happy or sad,wealthy or dirt poor,or is indifferent to suffering and pain, these ideas do not exist when you are " in the now "

Kind Regards Billy.

Worrying about your status quo would also occur in the present moment (NOW) you were doing that worrying would it not?

I don't mean to denigrate the practise that is advocated to get oneself into the NOW from wherever else one feels one might be (or have been told that they could be in), but merely to suggest to seekers that they are not somehow lacking if they have not achieved that yet and received the official stamp on the forehead which reads "permanently in the now".

Because there is a whole other view which suggests that the present moment (NOW) is all there is to be in and to be out of it is impossible, so none of us are lacking in that respect.

Shivani Devi
20-05-2017, 11:33 AM
There is really no such thing as the now.

Even if we break each second down to milliseconds and nanoseconds, every moment has either passed or is yet to come.

If there is such thing as the now, it will be to exist outside of time itself, where there is no past, present or future.

Such a state of awareness is only possible after one has attained samadhi.

A human Being
20-05-2017, 11:38 PM
There is really no such thing as the now.

Even if we break each second down to milliseconds and nanoseconds, every moment has either passed or is yet to come.

If there is such thing as the now, it will be to exist outside of time itself, where there is no past, present or future.

Such a state of awareness is only possible after one has attained samadhi.
Other schools of thought would say that there is only the now, and that time is a human construct.

For me, 'The Now' is the ever-present space of awareness in which all phenomena (ie anything that can be perceived) arise and fall away.

wstein
21-05-2017, 07:53 AM
There is really no such thing as the now.
Even if we break each second down to milliseconds and nanoseconds, every moment has either passed or is yet to come. Seconds and moments have to do with time. 'Now' has little to do with time. Now can be a moment in time, several moments in time, or a moment without time.

If there is such thing as the now, it will be to exist outside of time itself, where there is no past, present or future. Exactly.

Such a state of awareness is only possible after one has attained samadhi. For one in the Samadhi state, there is no now nor any time.

Shivani Devi
21-05-2017, 08:03 AM
As far as I understand it, those people who are saying to 'live/exist in the now', just means not to think or ponder too much about past events which may invoke feelings of regret or future events which may invoke feelings of worry...just surrender these thoughts and feelings to the 'there's nothing I can do about it either way' and let the grass grow by itself.

Iamit
21-05-2017, 05:56 PM
The words we use:-

Time
Past
Present/now
Future
....do have meanings.

Mind tries to use meanings to communicate thoughts or feelings to another mind which then attempts to relate them to its own thoughts and feelings. Back and forth it goes. Though not perfect by any means, the process may, in good faith, nevertheless achieve a feeling of mutual understanding.

We can probably agree about what we mean by the above words which would assist that understanding. For example if we can agree that NOW means somewhere between the past and future without having the difficult if not impossible task of screwing it down any tighter than that, discussion about whether there is anywhere else other than THE NOW which one can be in may be possible. For example enlightenment

Maybe someone can screw it down tighter than that? is only ever alledged. No one would ever know whether they or someone else was in that state or even know what its characteristics were.That may be a big enough subject for a separate thread.

:)

Gem
21-05-2017, 11:19 PM
The words we use:-

Time
Past
Present/now
Future
....do have meanings.

Mind tries to use meanings to communicate thoughts or feelings to another mind which then attempts to relate them to its own thoughts and feelings. Back and forth it goes. Though not perfect by any means, the process may, in good faith, nevertheless achieve a feeling of mutual understanding.

We can probably agree about what we mean by the above words which would assist that understanding. For example if we can agree that NOW means somewhere between the past and future without having the difficult if not impossible task of screwing it down any tighter than that, discussion about whether there is anywhere else other than THE NOW which one can be in may be possible. For example enlightenment

Maybe someone can screw it down tighter than that? is only ever alledged. No one would ever know whether they or someone else was in that state or even know what its characteristics were.That may be a big enough subject for a separate thread.

:)

Yep, it's easy - the now is this moment where existence is, as opposed to the past and future which aren't here now. It means the conscious experience is of 'this'. Question being, is one present with the present or are they somewhat distracted and unaware?

FallingLeaves
22-05-2017, 12:11 AM
Yep, it's easy - the now is this moment where existence is, as opposed to the past and future which aren't here now. It means the conscious experience is of 'this'. Question being, is one present with the present or are they somewhat distracted and unaware?

you mean I can't be 'present' with the 'past' and still be in the 'now'?

sometimes I think we do a lot of damage to ourselves with all these semantics....

Gem
22-05-2017, 03:01 AM
you mean I can't be 'present' with the 'past' and still be in the 'now'?

I remember Sailor Bob once saying, "If there is a past, I don't think about it". I dig that saying.

sometimes I think we do a lot of damage to ourselves with all these semantics....

To me it's like the question, am I presently consciously aware? Intellectually I know I am, so I'd say of course, but that's not the same as actually checking to find out.

self-realization
22-05-2017, 03:56 AM
Actually, the paradox lies in the fact that the present moment is not of time. It is beyond time and space and can only be revealed when the mind is quiet and there is nothing but the awareness of presence. When we try to understand it as the point between past and future, this is nothing but the mind's concept.

Ground
22-05-2017, 06:06 AM
With the past having ceased, future yet to come,
and no remaining in the present, the scope of natural mind
has no foundation or substance.

This expresses that fixation on 'the now' or 'presence' is a great error. It is driven by a sentiment of self being affirmed as truth.
Past is recollection in the context of a sentiment of self. Future is speculation in the context of a sentiment of self.
So it is about self which is being affirmed as truth by advaita but negated by buddhism.

Iamit
26-05-2017, 09:31 AM
you mean I can't be 'present' with the 'past' and still be in the 'now'?

sometimes I think we do a lot of damage to ourselves with all these semantics....

Yes words words words. But they do have meanings. NOW means the present moment so its not possible to be anywhere else. The past is gone and the future isn't here yet.

There are those who prefer something to do so are attracted to spiritual paths that offer that. They set up objectives for themselves, in this case the possibility to be in the past or the future so they have something to do called getting into the NOW. It is usually of great importance so are opposed to those who have a feeling that things are perfect just as they are despite some pretty awful appearances going on around us. I do not mean to denigrate something to do for those who prefer it but to then undermine those who resonate with perfection right NOW is a suspect, unhelpful, projection. One size does not fit all characters.

Non duality (some versions at least) supports the latter view.

iamthat
27-05-2017, 10:01 PM
This expresses that fixation on 'the now' or 'presence' is a great error. It is driven by a sentiment of self being affirmed as truth.
Past is recollection in the context of a sentiment of self. Future is speculation in the context of a sentiment of self.
So it is about self which is being affirmed as truth by advaita but negated by buddhism.

It depends what is meant by sentiment of self. Some advaitists such as Ramana Maharshi may refer to the Self, but this is very different to the idea of a separate self which has a recollected past and a speculated future. Buddhism and Advaita just have different labels for the same state.

Peace.

Iamit
27-05-2017, 11:49 PM
Yep, it's easy - the now is this moment where existence is, as opposed to the past and future which aren't here now. It means the conscious experience is of 'this'. Question being, is one present with the present or are they somewhat distracted and unaware?

At least the distracted and unaware state would be occurig in the now so we wouldn't have that to worry about.

:)

Gem
28-05-2017, 07:06 AM
At least the distracted and unaware state would be occurig in the now so we wouldn't have that to worry about.

:)

how would one know?

Iamit
28-05-2017, 03:13 PM
how would one know?

Yes you would have that doubt if you thought there was somewhere else to be other than the NOW. You would have to work out whether you were in that other place (wherever it is:) or in the NOW.

If one accepts however that we have flights of fancy, daydreams, distractions, memories about the past, and imaginings about the future, which all happen right NOW and do not therefore somehow remove us from the now, the problem is over.

Gem
28-05-2017, 10:58 PM
Yes you would have that doubt if you thought there was somewhere else to be other than the NOW. You would have to work out whether you were in that other place (wherever it is:) or in the NOW.

If one accepts however that we have flights of fancy, daydreams, distractions, memories about the past, and imaginings about the future, which all happen right NOW and do not therefore somehow remove us from the now, the problem is over.

Nothing to do with doubt, just how would one know if they were "distracted and unaware"?

Iamit
28-05-2017, 11:28 PM
Nothing to do with doubt, just how would one know if they were "distracted and unaware"?

If there is only the NOW one would not have to concern oneself with that question (what a relief:) in terms of whether one was in the now or not, because one would be distracted and unaware in the NOW.

Nowayout
31-05-2017, 01:57 AM
Now be good!

What is good???

Love is always thrown around like the end all to it all.

Peace is a much harder road, but hey.. I'm OK with love too.

The moments fall away
like grains of sand
As the day's fold
Into nights
Nights follow
the days

I best be on my
Way

Right NOW?

I have things to do...

Valerian
11-06-2017, 02:02 PM
Wholeheartedly echoing Baile's words.

Wish we had a 'bowing' icon, but then we can't have everything we want, only that which we need. :smile:

Valerian
11-06-2017, 02:08 PM
Regret is all about looking back into the past. If you're still unclear here, it's no doubt because you're using logic to try and decipher it. You need to engage using intuitive understanding. Or in Hermetic terms, apply wisdom that differentiates between relative truth versus absolute truth.

We live in the NOW. That is undeniable.
And yet someone psychologically locked in the torment of regret, lives in the PAST.
Both of these statements are realities of physical-material life. Both are true.

Echoing these words. So, so very true and beautifully expressed.

Gem
12-06-2017, 04:51 AM
I don't know, because when I do any hurtful thing to someone else, I regret it, and express such regret in apology, and folks are generally pretty forgiving because they know none of us is perfect, and all of us lose the plot and mess up sometimes.

Gem
12-06-2017, 04:55 AM
If there is only the NOW one would not have to concern oneself with that question (what a relief:) in terms of whether one was in the now or not, because one would be distracted and unaware in the NOW.

I'm not one to pretend everything could be other than it is, and the way things are is, people are distracted and unaware.

Valerian
12-06-2017, 11:09 AM
Yes, Gem, most people are distracted and unaware. I feel that given the interconnectness of us all, that our own being undistracted and aware helps the whole of humanity.

I've recently had trouble with new neighbours who are atheists and live their lives as the only one they will ever have. They have no concept of anyone else's needs or rights and go around obliviously upsetting people. As anger arose with me, I asked one of my Spirit Guides why they had moved in next to me and not someone who was on my own 'wavelength'. The response was that they had not been placed there to be a thorn in my side, but to benefit from being close to me. Hmmm another way of looking at the same situation! :smile:

Native spirit
12-06-2017, 03:08 PM
There is only one way to live and that is in the Now,you cant live in the past and you cant live in the future, so you have to live in the Now

Namaste

Gem
12-06-2017, 11:39 PM
Yes, Gem, most people are distracted and unaware. I feel that given the interconnectness of us all, that our own being undistracted and aware helps the whole of humanity.

Of course, if we're better able to have equanimity of mind, we're less likely to lose the plot and act in harmful ways.

I've recently had trouble with new neighbours who are atheists and live their lives as the only one they will ever have. They have no concept of anyone else's needs or rights and go around obliviously upsetting people

As anger arose with me, I asked one of my Spirit Guides why they had moved in next to me and not someone who was on my own 'wavelength'. The response was that they had not been placed there to be a thorn in my side, but to benefit from being close to me. Hmmm another way of looking at the same situation! :smile:

They'll probably return the favour.

Baile
15-06-2017, 04:22 PM
Echoing these words. So, so very true and beautifully expressed.Hey Valerian, thanks for that! Compliments always welcome. :smile: Heh, I had to re-read what I wrote. A couple weeks later and I have figure out what I was actually trying to say... Is that a bad sign?! (j/k)

youngnostic
12-07-2017, 01:46 PM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality. Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now. There is nowhere else for those thoughts or feelings to arise. So spiritual paths and/or practises striving to be in the now as opposed to somewhere else:) are misleading. What a relief that is! Imagine having to work out whether you are in the now or not while you are falling over a cliff or enjoying your breakfast:)


While I do agree with what you've written, I happen to paraphrase the "now" concept and call it the "eternal now consciousness" -- you see the subtle difference here? Instead of calling it the now, which is a beginingless constant, I call it a state of "consciousness" where you are aware of the present moment. Now the problem lays in the fact that if you have a goal for being in the 'now' and place a gap between the 'now' and the future where you receive the fruit of the now it is no longer the now... so it's a tricky concept... the key is not so much being concerned whether or not you are in the 'now', since, as you've already put, we are helplessly there, but rather being open to the idea of when you dismantle yourself from Time itself and settle spontaneously in the Eternal Now. It's a form of understanding where you see time as an illusion and you cannot help but embrace the Now for it is all there truly is.
Namaskar.

Iamit
14-07-2017, 01:25 AM
While I do agree with what you've written, I happen to paraphrase the "now" concept and call it the "eternal now consciousness" -- you see the subtle difference here? Instead of calling it the now, which is a beginingless constant, I call it a state of "consciousness" where you are aware of the present moment. Now the problem lays in the fact that if you have a goal for being in the 'now' and place a gap between the 'now' and the future where you receive the fruit of the now it is no longer the now... so it's a tricky concept... the key is not so much being concerned whether or not you are in the 'now', since, as you've already put, we are helplessly there, but rather being open to the idea of when you dismantle yourself from Time itself and settle spontaneously in the Eternal Now. It's a form of understanding where you see time as an illusion and you cannot help but embrace the Now for it is all there truly is.
Namaskar.

As long as the now is all there is, the despair of having to work out whether you are in it or not disappears. Resonating with a concept that totally trancends is a desirable happenchance dont you think? Otherwise there is always something to sort out/achieve before the feeling of disconnection can end.

Iamit
14-07-2017, 01:32 AM
I'm not one to pretend everything could be other than it is, and the way things are is, people are distracted and unaware.

Yes but they are not somehow outside of the now when they are distracted and unaware. So there is no elitest position of being in the now while others are not.

Iamit
14-07-2017, 01:34 AM
how would one know?

Because to be in the now is all that is available to us.

wstein
14-07-2017, 06:10 AM
As long as the now is all there is, the despair of having to work out whether you are in it or not disappears. Resonating with a concept that totally trancends is a desirable happenchance dont you think? Otherwise there is always something to sort out/achieve before the feeling of disconnection can end. The issue is not if you are physically in the now. The issue is that your metal focus and general awareness can be in/towards the 'past' or 'future'. Obviously this is not a very functional situation in terms of making the best choices (in the now).

Iamit
14-07-2017, 09:28 AM
The issue is not if you are physically in the now. The issue is that your metal focus and general awareness can be in/towards the 'past' or 'future'. Obviously this is not a very functional situation in terms of making the best choices (in the now).

Being in the now does not just apply to the body but also the mind, every aspect of being in fact. So both awareness and mental focus occur in the now no matter what the content of that awareness and mental focus may be.

no1wakesup
24-09-2017, 03:09 AM
The now which is claimed by most on the spiritual journey is not the now at all but more like a glimpse. Much like the feeling of the mist from the ocean but not the ocean itself. So this brief sensation is now labeled the now and serves as another mispercieved concept the mind can further intelectualize and simply continue to play with. If your measuring it or there is an experiencer claiming the experience of the now, that's not the now but only more time and a continuation of the story.

Iamit
28-09-2017, 02:36 AM
The now which is claimed by most on the spiritual journey is not the now at all but more like a glimpse. Much like the feeling of the mist from the ocean but not the ocean itself. So this brief sensation is now labeled the now and serves as another mispercieved concept the mind can further intelectualize and simply continue to play with. If your measuring it or there is an experiencer claiming the experience of the now, that's not the now but only more time and a continuation of the story.

Intellectualising gets such a bad press in some circles by those who profess a beleive in Oneness as all there is. Oneness as both ceryainly has a sens of humour:)

sentient
28-09-2017, 11:40 PM
I would wish to bring a mythological view into this discussion and tell a story about the "World Pole", where time and timelessness, essence and creation meet.
It is an awareness shift where time suddenly stops, yet seeing/witnessing movement, you realize you are in time as well.

Joseph Campbell had expressed this beautifully:
The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you’re doing in temporal sense …. this is the mythological experience.

In “mythological experience” the past, the presence and the future, and all phenomenal existence are but a "display" or "unfoldment" of the Source Dimension beyond time.

Nature Grows
29-09-2017, 02:51 AM
The beauty of hereness or The Now as some famously call it, is that it is impossible not to be in the now if the now is the only reality. Thinking or having feelings about the past or future happen in the now.

I have pritty much said those exact words before.

no1wakesup
29-09-2017, 02:49 PM
Intellectualising gets such a bad press in some circles by those who profess a beleive in Oneness as all there is. Oneness as both ceryainly has a sens of humour:)

Its not really bad press, just further misperception. As noted above, a mythological experience which usually prevails and hence has more experience to accumalate. So oneness, as a believable quality, is also part of that myth.

Iamit
01-10-2017, 10:48 AM
Its not really bad press, just further misperception. As noted above, a mythological experience which usually prevails and hence has more experience to accumalate. So oneness, as a believable quality, is also part of that myth.

As soon as you start separating things out as not Oneness manifest, the sense of nonduality is lost. Only when all and I mean ALL, including all aspects of self and what we see around us, is gathered into the fold of Oneness manifest, is the sense of nonduality completed and consolidated.

no1wakesup
01-10-2017, 04:54 PM
As soon as you start separating things out as not Oneness manifest, the sense of nonduality is lost. Only when all and I mean ALL, including all aspects of self and what we see around us, is gathered into the fold of Oneness manifest, is the sense of nonduality completed and consolidated.

From the perspective of a seperate self, cloked in identity and separation, its simply more meaningless belief. More story. That perspective can only see that which will confirm and allow to continue ones own personal and safe experience. The one who is reaching that conclusion has simpy added more to itself and identifying all other things, material and immaterial, as oneness with the universe. Thats not it... and is not realized until separation is no longer their. There is no you at all. Until that is realized there will continue to be more aersenal (knowledge) for the mind to believe in and so will keep mistaking a fully conceptual act for being IT.

Iamit
02-10-2017, 11:28 AM
From the perspective of a seperate self, cloked in identity and separation, its simply more meaningless belief. More story. That perspective can only see that which will confirm and allow to continue ones own personal and safe experience. The one who is reaching that conclusion has simpy added more to itself and identifying all other things, material and immaterial, as oneness with the universe. Thats not it... and is not realized until separation is no longer their. There is no you at all. Until that is realized there will continue to be more aersenal (knowledge) for the mind to believe in and so will keep mistaking a fully conceptual act for being IT.

All of that is already Oneness manifest. It is not even a problem that you dont include all of that as already Oneness manifest for it is already Oneness not including it! Absolutely nothing needs to change for complete connection to Oneness but if you want to feel that, all must be included so there are no longer those exceptions for you.,

no1wakesup
02-10-2017, 12:41 PM
All of that is already Oneness manifest. It is not even a problem that you dont include all of that as already Oneness manifest for it is already Oneness not including it! Absolutely nothing needs to change for complete connection to Oneness but if you want to feel that, all must be included so there are no longer those exceptions for you.,

Of course its already oneness. All from the same source. Yet, if it comes from a conceptual conclusion, something one in separation can agree, measure or believe in, then one only continues to thinks he or she knows. Most come to this as further belief...thinking and further maintaining just another illusion, another defined idea to hold on to. ALL the books you have read, all the practices, meditations you have done and teachings you have completed are utterly meaningless, once its realized. None of it has anything to do with what is as a primary function percieved by a separate position still their. It is all for the ego conviniently disguised as one of countless spiritual labels and modalities. Its as elementary as someone speaking volumes about what it is to skydive yet never had jumped off an airplane.

Iamit
03-10-2017, 02:40 AM
Of course its already oneness. All from the same source. Yet, if it comes from a conceptual conclusion, something one in separation can agree, measure or believe in, then one only continues to thinks he or she knows. Most come to this as further belief...thinking and further maintaining just another illusion, another defined idea to hold on to. ALL the books you have read, all the practices, meditations you have done and teachings you have completed are utterly meaningless, once its realized. None of it has anything to do with what is as a primary function percieved by a separate position still their. It is all for the ego conviniently disguised as one of countless spiritual labels and modalities. Its as elementary as someone speaking volumes about what it is to skydive yet never had jumped off an airplane.

It is not he or she who thinks but Oneness! You say of course that all is already Oneness and then add a Yet or a But. Oneness is playing with itself:) Stop adding that Yet or But and your feeling of separation about those concerns will be no more. There is of course already no separation going on at all because it is already Oneness arising as those concerns. Include those concerns as Oneness arising and there is no longer any distance to be covered between them and the destination:)

no1wakesup
03-10-2017, 03:57 AM
It is not he or she who thinks but Oneness! You say of course that all is already Oneness and then add a Yet or a But. Oneness is playing with itself:) Stop adding that Yet or But and your feeling of separation about those concerns will be no more. There is of course already no separation going on at all because it is already Oneness arising as those concerns. Include those concerns as Oneness arising and there is no longer any distance to be covered between them and the destination:)

Imagine these words are addressed to no one in particular. So nothing to take personal.

Words are only apparant formalities. .None of it gives you oneness... simply more interpretation. No need to bark at the wall. Intelectualizing IT doesn't authenticate IT. Oneness is playing with itself, yet no one their to claim it. If that which is stated or percieved comes from a solid identification as still primary, its simply more illusion.

The apparant problem with waking up is that its usually confused with liberation. The apparant problem with approaching liberation is that their is no one there to be liberated. The first shift in awareness can be causal (still dual).. the final shift is always acausal (beyond the illusion of duality and non-duality) ..and never is made to happen.

Where you are in the conceptual path is respected. Nothing here you can agree with nor add or subtract... unless to sustain separation (duality).

God-Like
03-10-2017, 07:43 AM
Of course its already oneness. All from the same source. Yet, if it comes from a conceptual conclusion, something one in separation can agree, measure or believe in, then one only continues to thinks he or she knows. Most come to this as further belief...thinking and further maintaining just another illusion, another defined idea to hold on to. ALL the books you have read, all the practices, meditations you have done and teachings you have completed are utterly meaningless, once its realized. None of it has anything to do with what is as a primary function percieved by a separate position still their. It is all for the ego conviniently disguised as one of countless spiritual labels and modalities. Its as elementary as someone speaking volumes about what it is to skydive yet never had jumped off an airplane.

The thing is, 'Oneness' is a dual concept that derives from the intellectual aspects of mind .

Beyond duality / mind there is no concept / thought of oneness .

I agree that there is no separation but there is individuality .

Every life signature is different and yet fundamentally the same .

Individuality is the difference experienced / expressed .

Such individuals can say that the sense of their individuality is real or illusory, but the key point is that the sense of individuality of the mind allows one to have a sense of themselves that differs ..


x daz x

Iamit
04-10-2017, 01:21 AM
Imagine these words are addressed to no one in particular. So nothing to take personal.

Words are only apparant formalities. .None of it gives you oneness... simply more interpretation. No need to bark at the wall. Intelectualizing IT doesn't authenticate IT. Oneness is playing with itself, yet no one their to claim it. If that which is stated or percieved comes from a solid identification as still primary, its simply more illusion.

The apparant problem with waking up is that its usually confused with liberation. The apparant problem with approaching liberation is that their is no one there to be liberated. The first shift in awareness can be causal (still dual).. the final shift is always acausal (beyond the illusion of duality and non-duality) ..and never is made to happen.

Where you are in the conceptual path is respected. Nothing here you can agree with nor add or subtract... unless to sustain separation (duality).

There is no such reality as duality, only Oneness manifesting as the appearance of duality. So what you think you have to overcome already does not exist:) You dont even have to realize that for it is already Oneness not realizing:) There really is nothing to be done or realized:)

no1wakesup
04-10-2017, 01:44 AM
The thing is, 'Oneness' is a dual concept that derives from the intellectual aspects of mind .

Beyond duality / mind there is no concept / thought of oneness .

I agree that there is no separation but there is individuality .

Every life signature is different and yet fundamentally the same .

Individuality is the difference experienced / expressed .

Such individuals can say that the sense of their individuality is real or illusory, but the key point is that the sense of individuality of the mind allows one to have a sense of themselves that differs ..


x daz x

The fundamental key in every word spoken is its origination. In other words, is there still a who there as a position in identity speaking of the one, source, god, duality, nonduality, enlightenment, path, no path,.. etc? If so then meaning or significance is there conceptually for that which is still identified in a conceptual existence. If the one speaking still has his ego in place, then story and character still continue. The ego or slightest sense of individuality is never awakened, enlightened or liberated. It is pricisely that individuality which completely disolves once liberation is there. This conditioned persona and its experience is nothing more than as extended dream as expression

Many confuse a sense of individuality (ego identification) as necessary to carry on in this world. That simply more mind identification conviniently assuming such nonesense in order to sustain its own sense of self importance. What you are is an expression at best, yet that expression has taken on some sort of primary significance. And since one can not be without a psychological and tangible sense of self for more than a milli-second, most retreat back to what is a common illussionary/conditioned existence. However now, we can build a more vast body of spiritual understanding and from this resigned and compromised new stage, we imagine that a more sturdy and evolved absorption can take place next time around. All of this is a continuous cycle until that expession calapses at the original inception which gave birth to a conceptual and experiential world.

Again, it all boils down to a perciever or experiencer still their and thus under the dillusion that its a centralized and primary conduit of its own conceptual world. There is no you post liberation. And in this moment, the you prior to liberation is nothing more than a myth. Thats what fk's with the insatiable need for the ego to remain in the picture.

no1wakesup
04-10-2017, 02:05 AM
There is no such reality as duality, only Oneness manifesting as the appearance of duality. So what you think you have to overcome already does not exist:) You dont even have to realize that for it is already Oneness not realizing:) There really is nothing to be done or realized:)

Of course there is no such reality as duality except as illussion. Once individual identity/ perception collapses, its the one once again as it has always been. There is nothing you have to overcome because its not there to begin with. It is obvious. So there is no one in the now either.. neither a now to percieve. Yet all of that is usually more story for most who claim it.

God-Like
04-10-2017, 07:02 AM
The fundamental key in every word spoken is its origination. In other words, is there still a who there as a position in identity speaking of the one, source, god, duality, nonduality, enlightenment, path, no path,.. etc? If so then meaning or significance is there conceptually for that which is still identified in a conceptual existence. If the one speaking still has his ego in place, then story and character still continue. The ego or slightest sense of individuality is never awakened, enlightened or liberated. It is pricisely that individuality which completely disolves once liberation is there. This conditioned persona and its experience is nothing more than as extended dream as expression

Many confuse a sense of individuality (ego identification) as necessary to carry on in this world. That simply more mind identification conviniently assuming such nonesense in order to sustain its own sense of self importance. What you are is an expression at best, yet that expression has taken on some sort of primary significance. And since one can not be without a psychological and tangible sense of self for more than a milli-second, most retreat back to what is a common illussionary/conditioned existence. However now, we can build a more vast body of spiritual understanding and from this resigned and compromised new stage, we imagine that a more sturdy and evolved absorption can take place next time around. All of this is a continuous cycle until that expession calapses at the original inception which gave birth to a conceptual and experiential world.

Again, it all boils down to a perciever or experiencer still their and thus under the dillusion that its a centralized and primary conduit of its own conceptual world. There is no you post liberation. And in this moment, the you prior to liberation is nothing more than a myth. Thats what fk's with the insatiable need for the ego to remain in the picture.



How I see it, is that there is only a reference of 'oneness' duality, non duality if there is someone/thing present that is relating to it .

There is however beyond all that and beyond someone that can relate to anything .

So where you speak about the origin of the word, one has to likewise speak of the origin of that which relates to the word .

Only the individual ego can renounce the ego or associate oneself as illusory or real .

It's all mind stuff whether there is the understanding had if it's all illusory or not .

Duality exists because you are able to become aware of the difference between being aware of yourself of the mind and being what you are beyond it .

That is the nature of duality ..

For those that say duality is an illusion makes no sense because it is the dual environment that allows one to distinguish / conclude their facts / opinions on the matter .

Non duality is a dual mind construct that points to beyond duality .

Oneness is duality because beyond duality there is no oneness .

illusions are dual in nature, duality isn't the illusion ..



x daz x

Iamit
04-10-2017, 11:03 AM
Of course there is no such reality as duality except as illussion. Once individual identity/ perception collapses, its the one once again as it has always been. There is nothing you have to overcome because its not there to begin with. It is obvious. So there is no one in the now either.. neither a now to percieve. Yet all of that is usually more story for most who claim it.

Good, then the waking up you referred to earlier is not a requirement for it is already Oneness asleep! So what you think is required for that waking up, namely the collapse, is also not required for it is already Oneness manifest as the individual identity/perception:). Also it is not necessary to bother about whether One knows something intellectually or has embodied it, for Oneness is both, each the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none:).

If there is only the illusion of difference where there is no difference whatsoever then that illusion is all there is to talk about and possible patterns or dynamics within it. Why try to go beyond the dream? Wherever you go will only be more dream, like the concept of Oneness itself:)

One such illusory topic is The Now. Most of us know what we mean when we use that term, namely the present moment in between the past and the future. Using that definition then there is nothing present but The Now and nowhere else to be, for the past is gone and the future is not here yet. What a relief, otherwise we would have to be bothered with working out whether we were in The Now or not:)

r6r6r
04-10-2017, 12:43 PM
( = concave-convex ergo a simple duality.

Occupied space Universe is all connected as oneness, yet it has numerous dualistic opposities, starting with;

1} Finite occupied space Universe{ somethingness } >< Macro-infinite non-occupied space nothingnesss,

2} convex{ positive } gravity ( ) >< concave{ negative } dark energy )(,

3} matter >< anti-matter,

and this list goes on and on.

Non-duality exists in only two ways;

1} as a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept,

2} consideration, only the macro-infinite non-occupied space, in-of-itself, that exists beyond our finite, occupied space Universe.

All other talk of non-duality has not rational, logical common sense that I can find.

r6

7luminaries
04-10-2017, 04:45 PM
How I see it, is that there is only a reference of 'oneness' duality, non duality if there is someone/thing present that is relating to it .

There is however beyond all that and beyond someone that can relate to anything .

So where you speak about the origin of the word, one has to likewise speak of the origin of that which relates to the word .

Only the individual ego can renounce the ego or associate oneself as illusory or real .

It's all mind stuff whether there is the understanding had if it's all illusory or not .

Duality exists because you are able to become aware of the difference between being aware of yourself of the mind and being what you are beyond it .

That is the nature of duality ..

For those that say duality is an illusion makes no sense because it is the dual environment that allows one to distinguish / conclude their facts / opinions on the matter .

Non duality is a dual mind construct that points to beyond duality .

Oneness is duality because beyond duality there is no oneness .

illusions are dual in nature, duality isn't the illusion ..


x daz x

Nice post Dazzer.
Agreed. In mystical terms this can also be represented as ascending and descending the ladder. Per Jacob.

So to just basically restate what you are saying (as I understand it :D)...

Meaning, for the purposes of this conversation, it's wherever we choose to locate the focus of our multidimensional consciousness. Will the momentary focus be more at the individuated "end" of the spectrum (where ultimately we are physically embodied for our lifetimes) or at the unity end -- where ultimately it points to What Is beyond all that we know as oneness.

Since we can expand individuated consciousness, we can bring awareness of unity or oneness ever more fully into our waking lives...and this is the work of our lifetimes. But as Buddha said, it's not wise to dwell there, in the emptiness (in our current form)...as dwelling there is not the work of our lifetimes. In other words, incarnation is the time for growth (integration, grounding, expansion, and channeling of consciousness), we hope. Continually ascending and descending the ladder, to ever greater degrees.

Peace & blessings Daz :hug3:
7L

7luminaries
04-10-2017, 05:43 PM
Non-duality exists in only two ways;

1} as a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept,

2} consideration, only the macro-infinite non-occupied space, in-of-itself, that exists beyond our finite, occupied space Universe.

All other talk of non-duality has not rational, logical common sense that I can find.

r6

Yes...agreed. What Dazzer was also saying, as I understand it.
Or....Wherever you go, there you are (a timeless Buddhist saying, also a book title by Jon Kabat-Zinn).

I agree that for us, this is mainly about location or focus of consciousness, and beyond that we cannot say much more.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

sentient
04-10-2017, 09:00 PM
Believable aspects of stories.

Words can only ever be but mere pointers to the actual “experience” of Nonduality, and so the stories serve as mere pointers as well.

Oneness or Noneness? Which word is more believable?

Another story:
There is a children’s story about the sky falling, but we do not actually believe that such a thing could happen. The sky turns into a blue pancake and drops on our head – nobody believes that. But in maha ati experience, it actually does happen.


Now I don’t think that the above story is believable, because a well-known Buddhist teacher Trungpa had said it, nor the mention of the maha ati “level”.

But "the sky turning into a blue pancake and dropping on our head", now there’s a recognizable hence believable pointer-expression of the new dimension beyond time and space :biggrin:
And that story can be especially helpful & significant for the Eternal Blue Sky – Tengri believers.

r6r6r
04-10-2017, 10:30 PM
7luminaries---Yes...agreed.
7L, it is the only rational, logical common sense conclusion. Since humans cannot get out of our finite, occupied space Universe, they can never experience macro-infinite non-occupied.

Most of the other comments Ive seen regarding what non-duality, lack rational, logical common sense. I'm always open to rational, logical common sense explanations.

We only see and experience a finite, occupied space Universe. Those who claimed otherwise never offer any shred of rational, logical common sense in association with the viewpoint.

What Dazzer was also saying, as I understand it.
Lots of mystical double/talk, that, lack clarity. imho

Or....Wherever you go, there you are (a timeless Buddhist saying, also a book title by Jon Kabat-Zinn).
Finite, occupied space Universe.

I agree that for us, this is mainly about location or focus of consciousness, and beyond that we cannot say much more.
Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L
My consciousness is focused is on conceptualizing then converting the concept to text via my finger-tips.

r6

God-Like
05-10-2017, 07:19 AM
Nice post Dazzer.
Agreed. In mystical terms this can also be represented as ascending and descending the ladder. Per Jacob.

So to just basically restate what you are saying (as I understand it :D)...

Meaning, for the purposes of this conversation, it's wherever we choose to locate the focus of our multidimensional consciousness. Will the momentary focus be more at the individuated "end" of the spectrum (where ultimately we are physically embodied for our lifetimes) or at the unity end -- where ultimately it points to What Is beyond all that we know as oneness.

Since we can expand individuated consciousness, we can bring awareness of unity or oneness ever more fully into our waking lives...and this is the work of our lifetimes. But as Buddha said, it's not wise to dwell there, in the emptiness (in our current form)...as dwelling there is not the work of our lifetimes. In other words, incarnation is the time for growth (integration, grounding, expansion, and channeling of consciousness), we hope. Continually ascending and descending the ladder, to ever greater degrees.

Peace & blessings Daz :hug3:
7L

I understand what your getting at regarding J's Ladder and also buddhas reflections, what's more to my point is that beyond duality there is no-one there that can ascertain anything . There is nothing there to ascertain . Only what you are is present that has no self awareness of itself in reflection of anything else . All these knowings of self and the world, love, consciousness, oneness is mindful and is dual in nature .

Illusions are born in the mind and are dual in nature . Duality is not illusory . Without a dual environment one cannot discern what is real and what is not .

Non duality would present self and the world without any difference . There would be no realness, oneness, separation, illusions to speak of nor would there be the ability to recognise or associate or acknowledge what you are with anything else .. i.e. there would be no self reflections had .

There would not even be the knowing of I am You and You are Me and all is One .


x daz x

Nameless
05-10-2017, 12:28 PM
This is to the original poster and the subject at hand. Sorry I didn't have time to read through the whole thread, but thought I'd add my 2 cents, although these points may have been made, so I apologize in advance. Not trying to sidetrack the thread :)

The past is the past and we can't change it (at least most of us believe we can't change it, let's just say) and the future hasn't happened yet, so we are always living in our Now.

You can't change the past from the past and you can't change the future from the future, so you only have the Now. From this "point of power" you can change the past and project what future outcome would be better to have, but you can only do those from the Now.

So the Now really is the only place that counts.

To me, when living in the Now and not thinking about a past event or a future event that might occur, I am noticing only myself and what's around me. And trying to stay present in the present and not dwell in the past or future is a muscle that can be learned, like anything else.

When you are present in your Now, you can notice things you might not notice when you are thinking about past/future.

It is a slippery slope to stay present, because are brains are just wired to make connections for us. If I am driving in my car and turn on the radio, this is when I notice it the most. It could just simply be a commercial, and that reminds me of something in my life and I starting thinking about that something, now not paying attention to the commercial, and I'm supposed to be driving, so I've split my attention and I'm focused more on thinking about that connection that my brain has nicely served up, than driving my car.

If I hadn't turned on the radio, I could be in Appreciation. Of the beautiful cars that are driving along side me, the amazing trees that I am passing, the pedestrians, the sky and what it's doing - the sunrise in the morning with the sun coming over the horizon, painting the sky a vivid color scheme.

So it's not that I am not in the Now, it's just harder to appreciate what I am doing in the Now if I am hijacked by the radio LOL. I can appreciate my car and how I love driving it.

The more I can appreciate and find joy in what i am doing each moment (for there is Joy in each moment if I look) I get more bang out of my day.

If you have kids, you understand this process. Kids are in the now all the time (young ones anyway). Be around a kid for an hour, and that is being in the Now.

So I find, what it means to me to be in the Now is to appreciate where I am in each moment, be childlike and find the wonder of the moment and what I could be doing with it, instead of letting my brain hijack my day with patterns of habits or patterns of thought.

Sometimes I do very well with it, and sometimes my brain hijacks me and I go down that path. The trick is to not allow that to happen, and if I was more conscious of what I am thinking and I can catch these hijack moments and stop them fast, and tell myself, that's not what I am doing here, and get back to appreciating what I am doing, the more I do this, the easier it becomes, but to catch yourself thinking takes a bit of doing and is something I have to practice.

So it's something to strive for. Because Joy is everywhere and abundant and my search is to try to find the joy in each moment and uncover it.

For me, it usually happens easily in the morning, when my day is bright and shiny and new. I'm trying to learn how to stay in the momentum of that. And when I can stay present, I find things I never would have found if I wasn't present, but sidetracked.

It's a nice thing to try, and why not give my brain a break from all those connections LOL?

no1wakesup
05-10-2017, 12:51 PM
Good, then the waking up you referred to earlier is not a requirement for it is already Oneness asleep! So what you think is required for that waking up, namely the collapse, is also not required for it is already Oneness manifest as the individual identity/perception:). Also it is not necessary to bother about whether One knows something intellectually or has embodied it, for Oneness is both, each the other and the One Love in Action dreaming difference where there is none:).

If there is only the illusion of difference where there is no difference whatsoever then that illusion is all there is to talk about and possible patterns or dynamics within it. Why try to go beyond the dream? Wherever you go will only be more dream, like the concept of Oneness itself:)

One such illusory topic is The Now. Most of us know what we mean when we use that term, namely the present moment in between the past and the future. Using that definition then there is nothing present but The Now and nowhere else to be, for the past is gone and the future is not here yet. What a relief, otherwise we would have to be bothered with working out whether we were in The Now or not:)

Saying all of this, as you are is not an agreement, belief or even something you can accept from someone still sleeping or identified with a separate self.

If u find contentment and relief where you are now then wonderful. Agreeing or accepting that makes it no less illussion. And thats fine... thats just how the universe is presently unfolding in your own individual experience. As someone going through an intelectual understanding believing in that which is non conceptual.... as it

If you were to erase the perception of future and past there would be no now. Now is not a measurement between futur or past, only another concept.

no1wakesup
05-10-2017, 12:59 PM
The thing is, 'Oneness' is a dual concept that derives from the intellectual aspects of mind .

Beyond duality / mind there is no concept / thought of oneness .

I agree that there is no separation but there is individuality .

Every life signature is different and yet fundamentally the same .

Individuality is the difference experienced / expressed .

Such individuals can say that the sense of their individuality is real or illusory, but the key point is that the sense of individuality of the mind allows one to have a sense of themselves that differs ..


x daz x

The key point if anything at all, is the identification one has as individual and separate which will continue to unconsciously soothe and enable that dillussion to continue. The mind identification loves to believe that. Just another way it keeps its current experience safe.

7luminaries
05-10-2017, 04:35 PM
7L, it is the only rational, logical common sense conclusion. Since humans cannot get out of our finite, occupied space Universe, they can never experience macro-infinite non-occupied.

Most of the other comments Ive seen regarding what non-duality, lack rational, logical common sense. I'm always open to rational, logical common sense explanations.

We only see and experience a finite, occupied space Universe. Those who claimed otherwise never offer any shred of rational, logical common sense in association with the viewpoint.

Lots of mystical double/talk, that, lack clarity. imho

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

And by heaven and earth, I mean our finite occupied-space universe :biggrin:

However I agree that converting that illumination or mystical apprehension into a linear, rational explanation of things is not easily done!


Finite, occupied space Universe.

My consciousness is focused is on conceptualizing then converting the concept to text via my finger-tips.

r6

LOL, hahaha!!!...it's all good :biggrin:
That too is a necessary and good aspect of actively focusing or being present in the now, each in our own way.

Presence and engagement ...these are key.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

7luminaries
05-10-2017, 04:55 PM
I understand what your getting at regarding J's Ladder and also buddhas reflections, what's more to my point is that beyond duality there is no-one there that can ascertain anything . There is nothing there to ascertain . Only what you are is present that has no self awareness of itself in reflection of anything else .
Yes, elevating the physical realm by continually ascending/descending (per Jacob) is the same as knowing the emptiness but not dwelling there. What they were demonstrating is what you say. We must be in the world whilst also dwelling on higher octaves in order to elevate this realm, to bring it into the higher octaves. Such that ideally there is no difference, or no difference that obstructs or limits or causes needless hardship, trauma or suffering. This is the realm where the lion finally lies down with the lamb. (I think it's now a wolf and not a lion...mandela effect).

As you say, if we are not present to the physical realm in our individuated consciousness, we cannot be a part of these awarenesses, illuminations, and their tangible manifestations. On the other hand, even whilst present in the self, we can always grow and expand our consciousness, our presence.

All these knowings of self and the world, love, consciousness, oneness is mindful and is dual in nature .

Illusions are born in the mind and are dual in nature . Duality is not illusory . Without a dual environment one cannot discern what is real and what is not .

Non duality would present self and the world without any difference . There would be no realness, oneness, separation, illusions to speak of nor would there be the ability to recognise or associate or acknowledge what you are with anything else .. i.e. there would be no self reflections had .

There would not even be the knowing of I am You and You are Me and all is One .
x daz x
...and that would be a real shame :hug: as you're a rather nice gent to know, all told.

It's funny, the existence of the reality of duality (as you've noted), or of the finite occupied-space universe per r6, paradoxically is exactly what points to the illusory nature of this reality...the part about separation being an illusion at the level of the soul and of our "higher" consciousness (or, rather, just who really are, at centre).

We need to be in both spaces, really, to get it. To be in the higher octaves whilst being in the physical. This is IMO what being here now or being love now means for us. It doesn't mean returning to the amorphous soul soup of non-duality :biggrin: (boring hahaha). It means being aware of the amorphous soul soup through awareness of unity...which as you say points beyond. And it means existing in unity and in relationship, in order to manifest and exchange love and experience, seems to me.

Peace & blessings Dazzer :hug3:
7L

r6r6r
05-10-2017, 05:24 PM
7luminaries--And by heaven and earth, I mean our finite occupied-space universe :biggrin:

Without definitions for heaven we cant know for sure what is meant. As is the case many times in many disscusssion here and in any group/forum.

Heaven can be all extratterrestrial events beyond Earth, ex the space between moon and Earth that is filled with EMRadiation and other fermions and bosons, the moon, galaxies, clsusters of galaxies etc untill at last we come to the finite, yet dynamic boundaries of Universe.

However I agree that converting that illumination or mystical apprehension into a linear, rational explanation of things is not easily done!

Nor is explaining how the mysteries of quantum entanglement occurs.

I have my ideas but thats for another thread. :wink:

r6



LOL, hahaha!!!...it's all good :biggrin:
That too is a necessary and good aspect of actively focusing or being present in the now, each in our own way.

Presence and engagement ...these are key.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L[/quote]

7luminaries
05-10-2017, 06:10 PM
Without definitions for heaven we cant know for sure what is meant. As is the case many times in many disscusssion here and in any group/forum.

Heaven can be all extratterrestrial events beyond Earth, ex the space between moon and Earth that is filled with EMRadiation and other fermions and bosons, the moon, galaxies, clsusters of galaxies etc untill at last we come to the finite, yet dynamic boundaries of Universe.

r6, hello!
There is interaction in my understanding between the 4% (finite visible material universe) and the 96% (dark, anti, and/or other unknown matter and/or energy)...but it lies in the realm of the mystics and/or what many term other dimensions. I loosely refer to that as simultaneous location of consciousness in the "higher octaves" because of the melodic reference to the music of the spheres. But we may each all this what we like, of course.

This interaction has to do with illumination and other "communication" or resonance between our own true presence or centre (which we may conceive of as our presence in the higher octaves, or as our higher self) and consciousness as it is present in other realms -- particularly transcendental beings who can multilocute (i.e., be in "many" places at once). But that's also for another discussion.

Nor is explaining how the mysteries of quantum entanglement occurs.

I have my ideas but thats for another thread. :wink:

r6



Yah very true - that one too is a topic in itself!

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Iamit
05-10-2017, 11:16 PM
This is to the original poster and the subject at hand. Sorry I didn't have time to read through the whole thread, but thought I'd add my 2 cents, although these points may have been made, so I apologize in advance. Not trying to sidetrack the thread :)

The past is the past and we can't change it (at least most of us believe we can't change it, let's just say) and the future hasn't happened yet, so we are always living in our Now.

You can't change the past from the past and you can't change the future from the future, so you only have the Now. From this "point of power" you can change the past and project what future outcome would be better to have, but you can only do those from the Now.

So the Now really is the only place that counts.

To me, when living in the Now and not thinking about a past event or a future event that might occur, I am noticing only myself and what's around me. And trying to stay present in the present and not dwell in the past or future is a muscle that can be learned, like anything else.

When you are present in your Now, you can notice things you might not notice when you are thinking about past/future.

It is a slippery slope to stay present, because are brains are just wired to make connections for us. If I am driving in my car and turn on the radio, this is when I notice it the most. It could just simply be a commercial, and that reminds me of something in my life and I starting thinking about that something, now not paying attention to the commercial, and I'm supposed to be driving, so I've split my attention and I'm focused more on thinking about that connection that my brain has nicely served up, than driving my car.

If I hadn't turned on the radio, I could be in Appreciation. Of the beautiful cars that are driving along side me, the amazing trees that I am passing, the pedestrians, the sky and what it's doing - the sunrise in the morning with the sun coming over the horizon, painting the sky a vivid color scheme.

So it's not that I am not in the Now, it's just harder to appreciate what I am doing in the Now if I am hijacked by the radio LOL. I can appreciate my car and how I love driving it.

The more I can appreciate and find joy in what i am doing each moment (for there is Joy in each moment if I look) I get more bang out of my day.

If you have kids, you understand this process. Kids are in the now all the time (young ones anyway). Be around a kid for an hour, and that is being in the Now.

So I find, what it means to me to be in the Now is to appreciate where I am in each moment, be childlike and find the wonder of the moment and what I could be doing with it, instead of letting my brain hijack my day with patterns of habits or patterns of thought.

Sometimes I do very well with it, and sometimes my brain hijacks me and I go down that path. The trick is to not allow that to happen, and if I was more conscious of what I am thinking and I can catch these hijack moments and stop them fast, and tell myself, that's not what I am doing here, and get back to appreciating what I am doing, the more I do this, the easier it becomes, but to catch yourself thinking takes a bit of doing and is something I have to practice.

So it's something to strive for. Because Joy is everywhere and abundant and my search is to try to find the joy in each moment and uncover it.

For me, it usually happens easily in the morning, when my day is bright and shiny and new. I'm trying to learn how to stay in the momentum of that. And when I can stay present, I find things I never would have found if I wasn't present, but sidetracked.

It's a nice thing to try, and why not give my brain a break from all those connections LOL?

If you set up a state, any state, as preferred thats fine as a mere preference. But if the preferred state is regarded as THE state of enlightenment, realization, or liberation, then the point is missed in nondual terms, that Oneness is already arising as unenlightened, unrealized, and imprisoned and seekers are mislead that there is somewhere to get that increases connection with Oneness when such an increase is impossible.

Nameless
05-10-2017, 11:56 PM
If you set up a state, any state, as preferred thats fine as a mere preference. But if the preferred state is regarded as THE state of enlightenment, realization, or liberation, then the point is missed in nondual terms, that Oneness is already arising as unenlightened, unrealized, and imprisoned and seekers are mislead that there is somewhere to get that increases connection with Oneness when such an increase is impossible.

No offense, but I have no idea what this means. My brain just can't decode it. Maybe you could dumb it down for me LOL. I mean no disrespect, it's just sometimes I try to stay away from the very esotericness of some of the postings on SF, because I just don't understand what they are trying to say. It's maybe my High School education rearing it's head again.

Let's see if I can figure it out - ....puts my thinking cap on....

A preferred state of being - me in Joy! Trying to find the Joy in my day? Yes, I prefer that state of being, but can't always find it, but it is something that does happen, but if I don't allow Joy into my life, no one else can do it for me, so Joy is always an inside job. I think that is what you are talking about. But it's only MY preference, of course, from living life without looking for the Joy for so many years, just the day to day, and yes, there was Joy, but there could have been so much more had I allowed myself more. So, live and learn.

I still have no idea about the next part. I, personally, am not looking for a connection with Oneness (I assume you mean All That Is?), so I guess that is why I can't make heads or tails of this. Personally I believe we are all connected to the Oneness - which makes it "Oneness" and I don't believe we have to seek it out, it just is. We're all a finger on the hand, so to speak. I don't believe we can disconnect from that.

But I appreciate your attempt at getting knowledge into this noggin. You just had no idea it wasn't going to happen. :D

God-Like
06-10-2017, 08:01 AM
The key point if anything at all, is the identification one has as individual and separate which will continue to unconsciously soothe and enable that dillussion to continue. The mind identification loves to believe that. Just another way it keeps its current experience safe.

Only of the mind can one identify oneself .

You see if there is a dual reflection of the mind and an awareness of that which reflects and is reflecting then one cannot help but identify with that .

If one associates everything that is self of the mind as illusory then so be it, but it will have to be a dual reflection nevertheless .

The duality of experience isn't illusory, because it's the discernment made that requires duality .

One has to have the comparison of what is real, which can only be known in or of the dual mind environment .

The so called illusion is born in or of duality .

Do you see that is the case?


x daz x

God-Like
06-10-2017, 08:11 AM
It's funny, the existence of the reality of duality (as you've noted), or of the finite occupied-space universe per r6, paradoxically is exactly what points to the illusory nature of this reality...the part about separation being an illusion at the level of the soul and of our "higher" consciousness (or, rather, just who really are, at centre).


Just homing in on this aspect ..

I don't see this reality as illusory . It is an environment for what we are to experience individuality . One can realize Self beyond this reality and continue to see everybody else as one and the same but yet unique and different at the same time .

The reality is not illusory, it is how you perceive things within the reality which is subject / open to scrutiny .


x daz x

Moondance
06-10-2017, 10:44 AM
Non-duality exists in only two ways;

1} as a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept,

2} consideration, only the macro-infinite non-occupied space, in-of-itself, that exists beyond our finite, occupied space Universe.

All other talk of non-duality has not rational, logical common sense that I can find.

r6

Hello r6

It's a bit crowded over here so I've started a new thread as a response to this.

Moondance
06-10-2017, 10:49 AM
Of course it’s always now. When a speaker refers to 'being in the now’ they are merely making the distinction between the sense of being present with experience as it happens and being lost in thought (rumination about the past/future anticipations.) They are not (usually) making a metaphysical/ontological claim.

We can be presently aware of the present moment or presently oblivious to the present moment.

7luminaries
06-10-2017, 01:55 PM
Just homing in on this aspect ..
Originally Posted by 7luminaries

It's funny, the existence of the reality of duality (as you've noted), or of the finite occupied-space universe per r6, paradoxically is exactly what points to the illusory nature of this reality...the part about separation being an illusion at the level of the soul and of our "higher" consciousness (or, rather, just who really are, at centre).
I don't see this reality as illusory . It is an environment for what we are to experience individuality . One can realize Self beyond this reality and continue to see everybody else as one and the same but yet unique and different at the same time .

The reality is not illusory, it is how you perceive things within the reality which is subject / open to scrutiny .

x daz x

Hey there GL/Daz.

I completely agree with this, and I agree that this material reality is key to our experience of both individuation (experience of self) and separation (the illusion). This is absolutely critical IMO, I agree...it's why we're here. I will unpack that a little more. Nor can I disagree that how we each perceive things within our environment (at whatever level) is unique to each of us. That too is absolutely true and critical really...I'll say more about that. It's the other piece I will unpack.

I completely agree, actually, with what you're saying. I was just trying to emphasise the separation aspect, but I didn't explain what I meant. So here goes...

We are individuated in this reality. That is, we experience our unique consciousness amidst the collective and amidst the greater All.
But it's more just an emphasis I was trying to make on the part about separation. Individuation does not equal separation. We are individuated (thank God :D) but we are never separated.

Separation doesn't actually exist. Not from our "higher selves" (these are in fact just who we are at centre, pure and unvarnished). Not from the Whole. And not from one another (hahaha...and yes, for those who may find this bothersome, I'm sorry to have to say it :tongue:). We're not the same, but as U2 said, we are all one, and we get to carry each other.

The illusion of separation is by no means wasteful, of course. It serves a crucial purpose. It allows us to continually exercise our option to choose, over and over, day in and day out. Will we choose today to live and act and be in alignment with who we are at centre, and rise to a place of authentic love and morality and being? OR will we choose today to go another way -- so that we can experience the violent perpetration of say, oppression, torture, rape, or murder ...or perhaps the perpetration of graft or theft or ??? ...upon others?

The illusion of separation is how we forge the mettle (metal) of our character, our soul. And once we have more than just the barest awareness of this context, we add the huge weight of sentient awareness behind those day-to-day choices. We now knowingly indulge in graft or exploitation or rape or harm of others...and thus against lovingkindness...no matter what else we may tell ourselves. Or, we now knowingly choose the path of authentic love of others equally to the self, and self, to others.

To your point, I agree. It's very real. The choices we make are very real. They are timeless, as are the intentions behind them. They can be redirected or healed through different choices and different intentions. And the sum of these intentions and choices made manifest in word and deed is who we are in the eternal, timeless, non-dual sense. Living in alignment with our centre is how we bring unity and non-duality into this waking world. That is how we know who we truly are (timeless) within this particular time-bound incarnation.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Iamit
07-10-2017, 10:56 AM
No offense, but I have no idea what this means. My brain just can't decode it. Maybe you could dumb it down for me LOL. I mean no disrespect, it's just sometimes I try to stay away from the very esotericness of some of the postings on SF, because I just don't understand what they are trying to say. It's maybe my High School education rearing it's head again.

Let's see if I can figure it out - ....puts my thinking cap on....

A preferred state of being - me in Joy! Trying to find the Joy in my day? Yes, I prefer that state of being, but can't always find it, but it is something that does happen, but if I don't allow Joy into my life, no one else can do it for me, so Joy is always an inside job. I think that is what you are talking about. But it's only MY preference, of course, from living life without looking for the Joy for so many years, just the day to day, and yes, there was Joy, but there could have been so much more had I allowed myself more. So, live and learn.

I still have no idea about the next part. I, personally, am not looking for a connection with Oneness (I assume you mean All That Is?), so I guess that is why I can't make heads or tails of this. Personally I believe we are all connected to the Oneness - which makes it "Oneness" and I don't believe we have to seek it out, it just is. We're all a finger on the hand, so to speak. I don't believe we can disconnect from that.

But I appreciate your attempt at getting knowledge into this noggin. You just had no idea it wasn't going to happen. :D

In my previous answer substitute your state joy for enlightenment and apply the rest of the post.

Basically the point being made is that there is no state that is not already Oneness manifest so nowhere to get in terms of connection to Oneness. If you are already feeling that total unavoidable connection then consolidating that feeling would not be relevant for you. Some however resonate with the idea that there can be no disconnection but have trouble accepting aspects of themselves and what they see around them as Oneness manifest. There follows a period in which they gather in all that unacceptable stuff as Oneness manifest till the process of feeling connected is complete.

Nameless
07-10-2017, 12:31 PM
Thank you for your response. I understand it now. I was just listening to an Abraham clip, and it made it make even more sense. I do stuggle sometimes with aspects of what I respond to with emotions that I am seeing around me, even though I understand the All That Isness of all of everything, I do get buried in the weeds - sometimes I call it parenthood and not weeds and sometimes I call it work and not weeds.

I will share the clip - it's about 3 minutes in that a nice process for helping see it as "oneness" may help me, so thank you for sticking it out with me until I understood.

I really needed this right now. Reacting to life has been my motto lately, and I'm trying to turn that around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOCsGJENyW8

no1wakesup
08-10-2017, 02:35 PM
Only of the mind can one identify oneself .

You see if there is a dual reflection of the mind and an awareness of that which reflects and is reflecting then one cannot help but identify with that .

If one associates everything that is self of the mind as illusory then so be it, but it will have to be a dual reflection nevertheless .

The duality of experience isn't illusory, because it's the discernment made that requires duality .

One has to have the comparison of what is real, which can only be known in or of the dual mind environment .

The so called illusion is born in or of duality .

Do you see that is the case?

x daz x

Duality or a conceptual existence is not the issue. Its identification with the exterior reflection, confirming a solid center within, that one takes as ownwership. You are putting the cart before the horse (which is a very common thing to do in spirituality). Coceptual reality is not required an owner of experience. Spacial dissernment can be made without minds unconscious perpetual interpretation and personal measuring. Fundamental awareness is all which is needed. However, the owner will fight to keep that idea alive... or simply ignore it. The dual mind environment you speak of is fully anchored by the illussion of you, as someone separate intelectualizing the one, the infinite, source or whatever useless title its given. It is the act of separation attempting to understand non separation or oneness from the same conditioned playing field of separation. Thats not it. You are duality at its core, the very foundation of it, so all you can see and further conclude is its extremities and absolutes disguised as awakened or even enlightened. Identification begins to happen as soon as you uttered or sensed the evolving idea of me. Its all play. There is nothing good or bad about it, except if within the dream state of conditioning/identity.

Gem
09-10-2017, 05:29 AM
Of course it’s always now. When a speaker refers to 'being in the now’ they are merely making the distinction between the sense of being present with experience as it happens and being lost in thought (rumination about the past/future anticipations.) They are not (usually) making a metaphysical/ontological claim.

We can be presently aware of the present moment or presently oblivious to the present moment.
It's the triple meaning of 'present' where 'present' in its locale means 'here', and in its tense, means now, and it also means 'gift'. But when we speak of 'present' in a spiritual sense, we basically mean 'existent'. The 'gift', as it were, is being consciously existent. 'When' and 'where' that is possible is not a time and place per-se - but more like an acknowledgment.

God-Like
09-10-2017, 07:10 AM
Duality or a conceptual existence is not the issue. Its identification with the exterior reflection, confirming a solid center within, that one takes as ownwership. You are putting the cart before the horse (which is a very common thing to do in spirituality). Coceptual reality is not required an owner of experience. Spacial dissernment can be made without minds unconscious perpetual interpretation and personal measuring. Fundamental awareness is all which is needed. However, the owner will fight to keep that idea alive... or simply ignore it. The dual mind environment you speak of is fully anchored by the illussion of you, as someone separate intelectualizing the one, the infinite, source or whatever useless title its given. It is the act of separation attempting to understand non separation or oneness from the same conditioned playing field of separation. Thats not it. You are duality at its core, the very foundation of it, so all you can see and further conclude is its extremities and absolutes disguised as awakened or even enlightened. Identification begins to happen as soon as you uttered or sensed the evolving idea of me. Its all play. There is nothing good or bad about it, except if within the dream state of conditioning/identity.


Whatever you say is confirming your own conceptual identity within a dual environment that is referred to as mind .

You assume what you are of the dual mind believes in separation and entertains an illusory identification ..

These are just more concoctions / assumptions / beliefs made based upon an identity of what is not illusory or what is not a solid center within as you put it .

I am just illustrating the nature of the dual mind .. one cannot stand here and say they are entertaining a non dual awareness when that actual pointer is made within duality in reflection of what they are .

You say Duality or a conceptual existence is not the issue .. and yet without it you cannot conclude what you have ..

What you say is not the issue is the actual foundation of our experience ..


x daz x

God-Like
09-10-2017, 07:16 AM
Hey there GL/Daz.
Individuation does not equal separation. We are individuated (thank God :D) but we are never separated.


Yes I agree with this .

Just because as individuals we entertain our own point of perception doesn't mean that all individuals see others as separate from what they are ..

A dual environment doesn't equal a perception of separation ..

Duality can encompass a sense of oneness .


x daz x

no1wakesup
09-10-2017, 01:48 PM
Whatever you say is confirming your own conceptual identity within a dual environment that is referred to as mind .

You assume what you are of the dual mind believes in separation and entertains an illusory identification ..

These are just more concoctions / assumptions / beliefs made based upon an identity of what is not illusory or what is not a solid center within as you put it .

I am just illustrating the nature of the dual mind .. one cannot stand here and say they are entertaining a non dual awareness when that actual pointer is made within duality in reflection of what they are .

You say Duality or a conceptual existence is not the issue .. and yet without it you cannot conclude what you have ..

What you say is not the issue is the actual foundation of our experience ..


x daz x

That which percieves in you is the issue. Its simply a mask now pretending its on a spiritual path or journey.. and writting these words which are utterly meaningless. All if it, more story to relate and cling too.

No assumptions or beliefs anywhere. Your experience is possible and only filters through an experiencer. You as experiencer are the root of separation and do not exist without the experience. You do not take, who you are still obliviously identified with, into that which has no other.

The foundation of your identity is made up of subject and object. That's how you became the center of experience... and your experience the landscape of linear time and space. Your illussion is made up of all of that, yet your fully fledged identity thinks its separate from it as a separate moving body. Once your identity is re identified as not only not primary... but all together a myth and story line, well then things will get interesting. Once that collapse unfolds you will look back at all the useless things you have written and warmly laugh

An identity soaked in duality will never realize a non dual state but will surely think more about it and claim, "thats it!!".

Where u are is respected.

r6r6r
09-10-2017, 03:10 PM
no1wakesup--That which percieves in you is the issue.
In you, out of you. A duality. There is no escaping duality, the pretending is that exists no duality.

Its simply a mask now pretending its on a spiritual path or journey.. and writting these words which are utterly meaningless. All if it, more story to relate and cling too.
A mask has two sides this side >(< this side and an edge ergo XYZ dimensions of occupied space.

Interestingly a similar icon{ tho not exactly the same as my concave-convex } is the Apple Macs logo associated with its 'Finder' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finder_(software)) program in the dock of Apples OS 10's screen.

Windows PC's Finder programs icon is a folder in folder holder and is called 'File Explorer' and in the 'Tasks Bar'.

No assumptions or beliefs anywhere. Your experience is possible and only filters through an experiencer. You as experiencer are the root of separation and do not exist without the experience. You do not take, who you are still obliviously identified with, into that which has no other.
Experiencer is 3D ditto the above XYZ. Also see four kinds of twoness.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s10/figs/f7310.html

The foundation of your identity is made up of subject and object. That's how you became the center of experience...
Another duality.

Once that collapse unfolds you will look back at all the useless things you have written and warmly laugh
Laughing is 3D phenomena. Ditto all of the above.

An identity soaked in duality will never realize a non dual state but will surely think more about it and claim, "thats it!!".
Ive identified two non-dualities.. The thing is they do not exist in isolation from the third, and the third is occupied space that in of itself has three primary types.

r6

7luminaries
09-10-2017, 03:35 PM
That which percieves in you is the issue. Its simply a mask now pretending its on a spiritual path or journey.. and writting these words which are utterly meaningless. All if it, more story to relate and cling too.

No assumptions or beliefs anywhere. Your experience is possible and only filters through an experiencer. You as experiencer are the root of separation and do not exist without the experience. You do not take, who you are still obliviously identified with, into that which has no other.

The foundation of your identity is made up of subject and object. That's how you became the center of experience... and your experience the landscape of linear time and space. Your illussion is made up of all of that, yet your fully fledged identity thinks its separate from it as a separate moving body. Once your identity is re identified as not only not primary... but all together a myth and story line, well then things will get interesting. Once that collapse unfolds you will look back at all the useless things you have written and warmly laugh

An identity soaked in duality will never realize a non dual state but will surely think more about it and claim, "thats it!!".

Where u are is respected.

Hello no1, I don't want to interrupt your exchange with Daz. Merely to add a few thoughts to the discussion.

With all due respect, this could be seen the essence of dualistic thinking, in that it is either/or and uses concepts like "never". In reality, we do experience both unity and individuation simultaneously -- and if we have not yet experienced this , we always have the potential to do so.

We are individuated, but we are not separate.
I quoted U2 above and I'll repeat it here...we are one, but we're not the same, and we get to carry each other. A beautifully succinct description of the both/and reality of our existence of individuation within unity. As well as a pointer or revelation as to how we manifest that simultaneous experience of individuation within unity.

If you read both the entire post #97 and Daz's prior post, you may have a better understanding of this both/and proposition of individuation within unity, and why this foundational construct (our material existence) for our tangible, manifest, engaged experience of the eternal in our day-to-day lives (in this "now" moment and place).
(You can refer to post #97 or go here: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1648292&postcount=97)

I would suggest neither consciousness nor existence are limited to an either/or proposition (of "either duality or nonduality", etc.). In my experience, as the heart-led consciousness expands (i.e., as the integrated, individuated singularity of the centred self comes into ever greater alignment with Spirit, or One), it is ever more a becoming, an expansion, and a metamorphosis into a "both/and" proposition, many times over. And that is because there are always the elements of awareness, engagement, acceptance -- and of course the conscious choice -- of the individuated consciousness that allow for expansion of consciousness within or by means of authentic love (which the mystics call the exchange of grace or spirit with self, with others, and with all that is).

With awareness and expansion of mind, and equally (cannot stress this enough) with awareness and expansion of heart, our consciousness becomes ever more imbued with clarity, acceptance, equanimity, expansiveness, and focus, within its singularity of centred alignment with One in authentic love. (In mystical terms, we could say the right and the left hands of God become equally empowered or illuminated within your individuated aspect of the divine Oneness.) Likewise, we become ever more integrated and at one with the consciousness of all that is (One), which is equally simply who we are at centre.

We start from a perceptual foundation of duality in our material 3D existence, and as we grow and expand our hearts and minds, we become (that is, we are in process of becoming) ever more aware of the illusion of separation and the integral connection, the foundational unity underlying and uniting all that is. And all the while, we manifest the unity within our individuated existence by taking conscious choices day-to-day on the ground (temporal individuation) to align our intention and our actions with who we are at centre (eternal/timeless unity).

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

7luminaries
09-10-2017, 04:10 PM
Yes I agree with this .

Just because as individuals we entertain our own point of perception doesn't mean that all individuals see others as separate from what they are ..

A dual environment doesn't equal a perception of separation ..

Duality can encompass a sense of oneness .


x daz x

Agreed. It can, and more to the point, ideally it will be so, and for every unique individuation of Spirit.

Realising our individuated connection to one another and to all that is, is among our most critical works of any lifetime. It is our reason for being, along with the equally great work of ever more knowing and consciously becoming (i.e., intending and choosing with great love, in alignment with spirit) who we truly are at centre.

These are two equally key aspects of the same greater truth, entwined and enmeshed with one other (so to speak). Knowing the reality of individuated self both within and as unity (each a unique fractal of One), and knowing the connection self and of all that is, as unity (infinite individuation as One).

Peace & blessings Daz :hug3:
7L

no1wakesup
09-10-2017, 04:53 PM
Duality is not the illusion, its the identication within that conceptual experience which is the misperception/illusion. You as the identified perciever/persona are the ultimate mask. The world is fine without the importance of you as a separate self. The nature of this physical reality will still hold to its nature without someone there to identify with it. Most on the spiritual path confuse awareness with a separate one still there in identity. That's all.

7luminaries
09-10-2017, 05:56 PM
Duality is not the illusion, its the identication within that conceptual experience which is the misperception/illusion. You as the identified perciever/persona are the ultimate mask.

No1, hello. I would say that if one thinks duality in the most limited and finite sense of 3D materiality is ALL that exists, then yes, that is an illusory perception/identification.

It still serves the critical purpose of providing a context for choice and thus growth of individuated consciousness.

However, this growth typically doesn't take off beyond a certain point without moving into an awakened, heart-led consciousness. Meaning centred in authentic love, or Spirit. ( I prefer to just say centred, or aligned with spirit, to designate the multidimensional consciousness and being that we are, individuated in unity. )

The world is fine without the importance of you as a separate self. The nature of this physical reality will still hold to its nature without someone there to identify with it. Most on the spiritual path confuse awareness with a separate one still there in identity. That's all.

I don't actually agree with the value assessment. When consciousness awakens, the universe fundamentally changes. It does matter. Self-aware sentience matters. Heart-led consciousness matters. Our contributions matter, IMO, at the most foundational level.

The world (in the sense of Oneness) is as it is in this moment, precisely for each of us and all of us as individuated consciousness (including various forms of collective consciousness) to ever more truly know and be who we are at centre. And not one of us is extraneous or replaceable. That IMO is an extremely dehumanising and dangerous position. Authentic love of each and all means every single one is the whole and is equal to the whole, in "worth" or "value". And every single one is no greater than all else and all others. That is why authentic love in being actively seeks and desires/wills the highest good of the others/all that is, equally to the self. AND seeks and wills the highest good of the self, equally to all else/all others.

Moreover, physical death does not mean any one of us ceases to be as consciousness, which is timeless. if even a single quanta of either energy or matter blipped out of existence, this entire universe ceases to be and "falls into" the next most compatible rung of material existence, which differs in its foundational existence by whatever is missing or lost. That is, in physical and metaphysical terms, the manifest truth of the value or importance of every single spec of What Is.

We are individually (as incarnated individuated consciousness) no less in spiritual worth or value than all that is. That too is an eternal truth.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

r6r6r
09-10-2017, 06:46 PM
There is Xx{ mom } and Xy{ Dad } and yes they are connected to each other minimally by gravity ergo as is all of occupied space Universe ergo the oneness every speaks of but none can be specfic as to what they actually mean by their comments.

So mom's X cell recieves either X or y from dad.

I.e. your or I are concieved as the new Xx or Xy incarnation, however, were still not and individual that is separate from the mom. The individual only comes after birth.

Individual (((Xx))) and individual (((Xy)))

(X) or (y) > ((Xy)) or ((Xx)) > (((Xx))) or (((Xy))) > potential access to concepts of Universe aka Uni-V-erse ( ^v )( v^)

( ) = gravity

^v^v = sine-wave reality

)( = dark energy

God-Like
10-10-2017, 07:42 AM
That which percieves in you is the issue. Its simply a mask now pretending its on a spiritual path or journey.. and writting these words which are utterly meaningless. All if it, more story to relate and cling too.

No assumptions or beliefs anywhere. Your experience is possible and only filters through an experiencer. You as experiencer are the root of separation and do not exist without the experience. You do not take, who you are still obliviously identified with, into that which has no other.

The foundation of your identity is made up of subject and object. That's how you became the center of experience... and your experience the landscape of linear time and space. Your illussion is made up of all of that, yet your fully fledged identity thinks its separate from it as a separate moving body. Once your identity is re identified as not only not primary... but all together a myth and story line, well then things will get interesting. Once that collapse unfolds you will look back at all the useless things you have written and warmly laugh

An identity soaked in duality will never realize a non dual state but will surely think more about it and claim, "thats it!!".

Where u are is respected.

Are the (supposed) meaningless words you have chosen just more stories soaked in an illusory identification?

Are you just adding more fuel to the same fire your trying to put out by what you say to others? .

I am not being disrespectful whatsoever just to be clear here, I am trying to establish how you are able to convey what you are saying without being soaked in the same identified self illusion .

Anything you say about anything will be a reflection of your own self identification ..

If your self identification is somehow beyond the dual mind reflection then I am all ears ..

Self identification is an interesting subject and many non dualists have a torrid time when one asks them things regarding their identification .

For some they will say no-one is here blah, blah, and yet they have self identified that as that ..

Your thoughts on that which perceives and masks and pretends to be on a spiritual path is riddled with so many identifications ..

Perhaps you don't relate to individuals that have realized what they are beyond mind and self identification to simply experience the physical plane without a mask or without pretending to be something there not?

A man that has realized God as an analogy has realized God is a man .

There is only God whether God has a face or not, or a name or not .. What is illusory about God named John or Pete?

Would you say God cannot be named John or Pete?



x daz x

no1wakesup
13-10-2017, 04:05 PM
Are the (supposed) meaningless words you have chosen just more stories soaked in an illusory identification?

Are you just adding more fuel to the same fire your trying to put out by what you say to others? .

I am not being disrespectful whatsoever just to be clear here, I am trying to establish how you are able to convey what you are saying without being soaked in the same identified self illusion .

Anything you say about anything will be a reflection of your own self identification ..

If your self identification is somehow beyond the dual mind reflection then I am all ears ..

Self identification is an interesting subject and many non dualists have a torrid time when one asks them things regarding their identification .

For some they will say no-one is here blah, blah, and yet they have self identified that as that ..

Your thoughts on that which perceives and masks and pretends to be on a spiritual path is riddled with so many identifications ..

Perhaps you don't relate to individuals that have realized what they are beyond mind and self identification to simply experience the physical plane without a mask or without pretending to be something there not?

A man that has realized God as an analogy has realized God is a man .

There is only God whether God has a face or not, or a name or not .. What is illusory about God named John or Pete?

Would you say God cannot be named John or Pete?



x daz x


if it is there for you conceptually, as constant and unbroken interpretation from a solid identity, then that will never be it. Nothing youve learned and aquired on your spiritual journey will ever be it. That perspective will always fight for its own importance and survival, just as its doing now. Where you are is respected.

God-Like
14-10-2017, 11:51 AM
if it is there for you conceptually, as constant and unbroken interpretation from a solid identity, then that will never be it. Nothing youve learned and aquired on your spiritual journey will ever be it. That perspective will always fight for its own importance and survival, just as its doing now. Where you are is respected.


How is it for you?

This is why I asked you, are your words as meaningless as mine, are they infused with your own sense of self identification?

What have you learned along the way that isn't it?

Is it part of what you have ascertained now in reflection of what you say?

My line of thought is drawn to understand those that say it's all a dream and an illusion but forget to address their own part in it ..

It's like saying whatever I say isn't it, but I will continue to say what I say lol ..


x daz x

no1wakesup
14-10-2017, 01:00 PM
How is it for you?

This is why I asked you, are your words as meaningless as mine, are they infused with your own sense of self identification?

What have you learned along the way that isn't it?

Is it part of what you have ascertained now in reflection of what you say?

My line of thought is drawn to understand those that say it's all a dream and an illusion but forget to address their own part in it ..

It's like saying whatever I say isn't it, but I will continue to say what I say lol ..


x daz x

Every word can be reflective or not and yet has no author.

My words are meaningful or meaningless from the point of your perception in identity. They are only for your story. Outside of that its just whats unfolding and a happening, yet happening to no one

The need to address my part is your assumption..lol. Your interpretation is yours, however you wish to compartmentalize it to fit and conform within your own spiritual needs and biography. All for ****s & giggles...entertainment at best. Spiritual quest, journeys, paths, ascentions, dismantaling ego... just more busy work for the ego to enable itself to stay away from its center. None of this is serious work.

At least conceptually, after you wake up from a dream you realize you were dreaming. With liberation, the one sleeping turns out to be a myth and imaginative all together. So there is no one there having a dream. And since you can't take that myth with you, it retreats as expected and settles into new beliefs and conceptual paradyms that keep it safe.

Where you are is fine. You can conceptualize being fine with understanding all is oneness all you want. But that all goes to **** as well once a final shift and collapse unfolds. Again, nothing said here is serious.

Be well.

God-Like
14-10-2017, 06:47 PM
My words are meaningful or meaningless from the point of your perception in identity. .


So what is the point in your perception based upon? Are you absent from conceptual wrangling based upon an identity that relates to what you think you are?

The assumptions you think are mine are also yours do you see?

I am just trying to get to basics upon what you say and how it is somehow absent from the conceptual stuff that is meaningless .

It doesn't matter where my point of perception is, if every point is conceptual .

The sage that has realised Self will still post realisation entertain a point of perception of the mind that engages with the intellect .

There is no point in ever comparing beyond mind realisation with what you are of the mind that is experiencing the flesh .

When someone starts to compare this with that, what is real and what is not, it is all conceptual no matter what .

My notion that everything of the mind is conceptual is a conceptual notion ..

Do you have something to say that isn't?



x daz x

no1wakesup
14-10-2017, 07:18 PM
So what is the point in your perception based upon? Are you absent from conceptual wrangling based upon an identity that relates to what you think you are?

The assumptions you think are mine are also yours do you see?

I am just trying to get to basics upon what you say and how it is somehow absent from the conceptual stuff that is meaningless .

It doesn't matter where my point of perception is, if every point is conceptual .

The sage that has realised Self will still post realisation entertain a point of perception of the mind that engages with the intellect .

There is no point in ever comparing beyond mind realisation with what you are of the mind that is experiencing the flesh .

When someone starts to compare this with that, what is real and what is not, it is all conceptual no matter what .



x daz x

Just for the f...k of it..if thats a reason which will do/suffice.

There is nothing here to convince you of... nor is there any attemp to win you over. What is said is said. If you intellectualize it then thats the experience. Thats fine. What is it that you want to do with it? There's absolutely nothing you can do with it. The moment you want something out of this, it is long gone conceptually.

Enjoy the weekend. Will back on next week.

youngnostic
21-10-2017, 08:08 PM
Exactly.
Once you recognize that wanting or seeking to be in the Now is of itself Duality rather than an appreciation or an Understanding of what the Now implies in which case Time loses its grip.. but as long as you are trying to unravel Time... as long as you are doing things for an imaginary self... then you are in Duality and thence not in the Now.