Where enlightenment and illumination meet and are no different--

[firstandlast]

We, when we understand the nature of honor and worship; are capable of honoring and worshiping everything; but in order to do this we must understand the difference between enlightenment and illumination beyond their narrow spiritual confines and embrace all as spirit; that aspect which animates all other elements—

It is quite simple, enlightenment is a destructive process— It is to welcome Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill repute; it is to strip away the honor they were promised for fighting for our country, it is to strip them to the very core of their being after being sent into a manifested dark night of the soul; it is to make them realize whom they were to make their choices for regardless of decoration—

Illumination is the decorated soldier, it is the accomplished man; it is the PhD, it is the generated mark of accomplishment in the invisible land of personal history and trial— It is as simple as a sign post to understand what a person has done and meant in their life in a visible way so that others know how to treat them; the higher quality the mark, the greater the degree of truth it carries, the higher quality the relationship that is honored when it is recognized and respected, though such respect will be carried out by the choice of those whom recognize—

However, honor is relationship based; as is respect and worship— If you understand what something is to you, and this hold true in every way; than such is a higher quality of worship— You worship the ground by appreciating its ability to be that which you are able to walk upon, this is honoring it for what it is and its relationship to you; but as you move, such appreciation and relationships change and sometimes these go on unrecognized— For when I walk up the stairs to a second story floor, I appreciate the ground in the same way; and yet, I have not recognized what I am truly honoring if I have not realized that this ground has given me more ground; that this ground holds me up higher than other ground— This is something to be appreciated more, and yet; it doesn’t mar the honor of the floor below it; because without that foundation, without the ground I once walked upon holding the ground I walk upon now, such an honor could not arise in view; and thus each are exalted in relation to each other—

Illumination, highlights those subtle things in life and allows us to honor those things that do not even appear to exist without decoration; The two walls and ceiling coming into a corner, what corner would be there without such emergence of those things we recognize as what truly exists— You see, certain things can only be decorated; can only be understood through the relationships of other things relating to each other— How is such a thing practical? Well how can I talk to you about abstract ideas without a bunch of words that are not the concept itself, and yet pose the concept by their relationship and ability convey things beyond them merely by decorating a page or screen with some characters, that as far as we honor them have little meaning beyond the relationships we give them?

Illumination is illustration— Illumination is in decoration! illumination is in labels, is in taking a number things and treating them as a set; or taking a set and treating them as a number of things.. It is in the ability to navigate waters that would otherwise be unchartered without land marks of passage— Illumination is to take a seed and let it become a tree; and a tree to be many seeds and many more trees in the future— Illumination is in a question with an answer that has more questions and even more answers with even more questions— It is the invisible ocean of intelligence, consciousness ,and sense of being— Enlightenment is the clarity of a brilliant light! Illumination is that light into color, and the ability to move to and fro! Enlightenment is self-realization, illumination is the mastery of that self and its expression—

But more importantly, and more humanly; Enlightenment is the ability to really look at one's self and see form or another, and illumination is the ability to look at everyone else and see it in a quality that brings life a greater form that can be said is worth living— Not to strive for peace, and miss the mark; but to aim for higher joy and find peace—

[Baile]

It is quite simple, enlightenment is a destructive process— It is to welcome Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill reputeThat I disagree with. What you're doing here is taking one specific word, and twisting the meaning to accommodate and fit your thesis. Enlightenment is waking up. Waking up is not destructive. Yes, it destroys one's old paradigm. But it does not, for example, cause one to suddenly start thinking negative, destructive thoughts about Vietnam vets and such. The reverse is true in fact. One becomes enlightened and awake to the plight of others.Enlightenment is the ability to really look at one's self and see form or another, and illumination is the ability to look at everyone elseThis is a very good insight. I like that. That is the Middle Path; that is Tarot card IX. The hermit who carries the lantern of self-enlightenment, for the purpose of illuminating the world around them.

[firstandlast]

That I disagree with. What you're doing here is taking one specific word, and twisting the meaning to accommodate and fit your thesis.


Creation is destruction, destruction is creation; it is all about the angle of approach and how it becomes experienced.. And in that so to with words--

I am never pointing to anything different but the movement through the same thing-- I wouldn't get so stuck on my personal translations that bring down inexplicable experience into practical theory--

[Baile]

Creation is destruction, destruction is creation; it is all about the angle of approach and how it becomes experienced.. And in that so to with words--

I am never pointing to anything different but the movement through the same thing-- I wouldn't get so stuck on my personal translations that bring down inexplicable experience into practical theory--No, this is not just about "angle of approach." You are taking a word -- enlightenment -- and specifically stating that an enlightened person becomes someone who, "welcomes Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill repute." That it is an erroneous statement and argument. An enlightened person, in their enlightened state, would have compassion and understanding for those vets. That is how enlightenment manifests as human action. Simple as that.

Creation is indeed destruction. And so with the creation of the enlightened view, the unenlightened view is destroyed.

[firstandlast]

No, this is not just about "angle of approach." You are taking a word -- enlightenment -- and specifically stating that an enlightened person becomes someone who, "welcomes Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill repute." That it is an erroneous statement and argument. An enlightened person, in their enlightened state, would have compassion and understanding for those vets. That is how enlightenment manifests as human action. Simple as that.

Creation is indeed destruction. And so with the creation of the enlightened view, the unenlightened view is destroyed.


I am talking about the vets becoming enlightened, not how people treated the vets as enlightened-- I am talking about how such they would have to look upon themselves and have the chance to understand their own decisions because of the destructive force that destroyed the illusion of the promise foretold when men rule without integrity, and the lack of compassion forces one to find compassion for themselves which will allow them to better look at others situations in the future; at the very least the chance to illuminate themselves in this manner--

[firstandlast]

No, this is not just about "angle of approach." You are taking a word -- enlightenment -- and specifically stating that an enlightened person becomes someone who, "welcomes Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill repute." That it is an erroneous statement and argument. An enlightened person, in their enlightened state, would have compassion and understanding for those vets. That is how enlightenment manifests as human action. Simple as that.

Creation is indeed destruction. And so with the creation of the enlightened view, the unenlightened view is destroyed.


I also would not define the process of enlightenment by the results often recognized from its process--

[running]

We, when we understand the nature of honor and worship; are capable of honoring and worshiping everything; but in order to do this we must understand the difference between enlightenment and illumination beyond their narrow spiritual confines and embrace all as spirit; that aspect which animates all other elements—

It is quite simple, enlightenment is a destructive process— It is to welcome Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill repute; it is to strip away the honor they were promised for fighting for our country, it is to strip them to the very core of their being after being sent into a manifested dark night of the soul; it is to make them realize whom they were to make their choices for regardless of decoration—

Illumination is the decorated soldier, it is the accomplished man; it is the PhD, it is the generated mark of accomplishment in the invisible land of personal history and trial— It is as simple as a sign post to understand what a person has done and meant in their life in a visible way so that others know how to treat them; the higher quality the mark, the greater the degree of truth it carries, the higher quality the relationship that is honored when it is recognized and respected, though such respect will be carried out by the choice of those whom recognize—

However, honor is relationship based; as is respect and worship— If you understand what something is to you, and this hold true in every way; than such is a higher quality of worship— You worship the ground by appreciating its ability to be that which you are able to walk upon, this is honoring it for what it is and its relationship to you; but as you move, such appreciation and relationships change and sometimes these go on unrecognized— For when I walk up the stairs to a second story floor, I appreciate the ground in the same way; and yet, I have not recognized what I am truly honoring if I have not realized that this ground has given me more ground; that this ground holds me up higher than other ground— This is something to be appreciated more, and yet; it doesn’t mar the honor of the floor below it; because without that foundation, without the ground I once walked upon holding the ground I walk upon now, such an honor could not arise in view; and thus each are exalted in relation to each other—

Illumination, highlights those subtle things in life and allows us to honor those things that do not even appear to exist without decoration; The two walls and ceiling coming into a corner, what corner would be there without such emergence of those things we recognize as what truly exists— You see, certain things can only be decorated; can only be understood through the relationships of other things relating to each other— How is such a thing practical? Well how can I talk to you about abstract ideas without a bunch of words that are not the concept itself, and yet pose the concept by their relationship and ability convey things beyond them merely by decorating a page or screen with some characters, that as far as we honor them have little meaning beyond the relationships we give them?

Illumination is illustration— Illumination is in decoration! illumination is in labels, is in taking a number things and treating them as a set; or taking a set and treating them as a number of things.. It is in the ability to navigate waters that would otherwise be unchartered without land marks of passage— Illumination is to take a seed and let it become a tree; and a tree to be many seeds and many more trees in the future— Illumination is in a question with an answer that has more questions and even more answers with even more questions— It is the invisible ocean of intelligence, consciousness ,and sense of being— Enlightenment is the clarity of a brilliant light! Illumination is that light into color, and the ability to move to and fro! Enlightenment is self-realization, illumination is the mastery of that self and its expression—

But more importantly, and more humanly; Enlightenment is the ability to really look at one's self and see form or another, and illumination is the ability to look at everyone else and see it in a quality that brings life a greater form that can be said is worth living— Not to strive for peace, and miss the mark; but to aim for higher joy and find peace—

the path as i see it is the merging of the male and female. when that happens it becomes a love/joy that is beyond the mind and body. but is experienced in the mind and body. its irreversible and what is going on in the mind or body does not stop its lovemaking.

personal experience, personality, and preferences is a part of ones identity. all of which is ok with the love/joy. where there is like an ego breakdown is in recognizing this phenomena. until it is so it can be chaos in the mind as the lovemakimg intennsifies everything. until one surrenders to what is in the power of the divine.

[Jyotir]

Hi firstandlast,

Suggesting that enlightenment is the conscious reception of illumination.

~ J

[naturesflow]

We, when we understand the nature of honor and worship; are capable of honoring and worshiping everything; but in order to do this we must understand the difference between enlightenment and illumination beyond their narrow spiritual confines and embrace all as spirit; that aspect which animates all other elements—

It is quite simple, enlightenment is a destructive process— It is to welcome Vietnam vets home with disgust and ill repute; it is to strip away the honor they were promised for fighting for our country, it is to strip them to the very core of their being after being sent into a manifested dark night of the soul; it is to make them realize whom they were to make their choices for regardless of decoration—

Illumination is the decorated soldier, it is the accomplished man; it is the PhD, it is the generated mark of accomplishment in the invisible land of personal history and trial— It is as simple as a sign post to understand what a person has done and meant in their life in a visible way so that others know how to treat them; the higher quality the mark, the greater the degree of truth it carries, the higher quality the relationship that is honored when it is recognized and respected, though such respect will be carried out by the choice of those whom recognize—

However, honor is relationship based; as is respect and worship— If you understand what something is to you, and this hold true in every way; than such is a higher quality of worship— You worship the ground by appreciating its ability to be that which you are able to walk upon, this is honoring it for what it is and its relationship to you; but as you move, such appreciation and relationships change and sometimes these go on unrecognized— For when I walk up the stairs to a second story floor, I appreciate the ground in the same way; and yet, I have not recognized what I am truly honoring if I have not realized that this ground has given me more ground; that this ground holds me up higher than other ground— This is something to be appreciated more, and yet; it doesn’t mar the honor of the floor below it; because without that foundation, without the ground I once walked upon holding the ground I walk upon now, such an honor could not arise in view; and thus each are exalted in relation to each other—

Illumination, highlights those subtle things in life and allows us to honor those things that do not even appear to exist without decoration; The two walls and ceiling coming into a corner, what corner would be there without such emergence of those things we recognize as what truly exists— You see, certain things can only be decorated; can only be understood through the relationships of other things relating to each other— How is such a thing practical? Well how can I talk to you about abstract ideas without a bunch of words that are not the concept itself, and yet pose the concept by their relationship and ability convey things beyond them merely by decorating a page or screen with some characters, that as far as we honor them have little meaning beyond the relationships we give them?

Illumination is illustration— Illumination is in decoration! illumination is in labels, is in taking a number things and treating them as a set; or taking a set and treating them as a number of things.. It is in the ability to navigate waters that would otherwise be unchartered without land marks of passage— Illumination is to take a seed and let it become a tree; and a tree to be many seeds and many more trees in the future— Illumination is in a question with an answer that has more questions and even more answers with even more questions— It is the invisible ocean of intelligence, consciousness ,and sense of being— Enlightenment is the clarity of a brilliant light! Illumination is that light into color, and the ability to move to and fro! Enlightenment is self-realization, illumination is the mastery of that self and its expression—

But more importantly, and more humanly; Enlightenment is the ability to really look at one's self and see form or another, and illumination is the ability to look at everyone else and see it in a quality that brings life a greater form that can be said is worth living— Not to strive for peace, and miss the mark; but to aim for higher joy and find peace—


Peace is a the hall mark of deeper inner change. What is illuminated to bring one to that space is often the process of life and self awareness, so yes I agree.
The unfolding of life as peace will define itself in peace of what is and then can continue to love and be joyful as their own presence.

For me that is enlightening, to come to know through this process of life that I can become/be all that. And it is all connected to itself and life as all this.

[naturesflow]

the path as i see it is the merging of the male and female. when that happens it becomes a love/joy that is beyond the mind and body. but is experienced in the mind and body. its irreversible and what is going on in the mind or body does not stop its lovemaking.

personal experience, personality, and preferences is a part of ones identity. all of which is ok with the love/joy. where there is like an ego breakdown is in recognizing this phenomena. until it is so it can be chaos in the mind as the lovemakimg intennsifies everything. until one surrenders to what is in the power of the divine.


The path of merging the male and female would be what I consider as the illumination of yourself coming into awareness of yourself as complete in loving presence, which is very enlightening to the whole.

[naturesflow]

Dribbled another post again..:)

[firstandlast]

Peace is a the hall mark of deeper inner change. What is illuminated to bring one to that space is often the process of life and self awareness, so yes I agree.
The unfolding of life as peace will define itself in peace of what is and then can continue to love and be joyful as their own presence.

For me that is enlightening, to come to know through this process of life that I can become/be all that. And it is all connected to itself and life as all this.


I would say in greater joy one is more able to find peace at any point, but that peace is not the hallmark of an illuminated community which can enjoy all aspects of being regardless of form, and this includes war and blood thirsty vengeance-- But as such things are still sensitive to the heart that emerges here and are unable to be imagined as desirable things (and this is a misalignment with ourselves creating it in the first place)--

The path of merging the male and female would be what I consider as the illumination of yourself coming into awareness of yourself as complete in loving presence, which is very enlightening to the whole.

The merging of male and female is a topical understanding of coming into recognition of androgyny learning to dance with androgyny; we could not ever claim for there to be a disbalance, between the two unless what was included in our focal point was something of exit point; that is to say if you put oil and water together in equal ratio, they would always be in balance and there would be no account for what moves it; thus we are only talking about reconciliation of one thing, one spectrum into a greater spectrum-- That is a greater cohesion that is capable of now dealing with the greater spectrum of being which is not defined at all by male or female principles but in accordance to spirit, which is androgynous upon androgynous--

However, what I am talking about I deal with directly as an entirely different way of being (where as recognizing the oneness of the two aspects of a single being prepares one for the next set of teachings that will emerge from the ancient teachings which resonate with our orbital pattern or cyclic time spiral at this time are just a foundation of an ever changing thing), and as such is not discussed truly, because unless you have the right experiences nothing of such subtle natures would be yet relevant; and people are struggling enough with what is going on as it is-- But I find it worth mentioning that such topics as they are often approach are just the peak of another wave upon themselves and there are always greater peaks to be reached; but the next one prepares us for the eternal way or eternity in much more rational and realistic expectations in order to deal with things so beyond us we must be able to have the ability to deal with these things in representational form, thus male and female just being the light and shadow of one aspect of being if we remove the preconceived notions of what light and shadow means to us truly--

[naturesflow]

I would say in greater joy one is more able to find peace at any point, but that peace is not the hallmark of an illuminated community which can enjoy all aspects of being regardless of form, and this includes war and blood thirsty vengeance-- But as such things are still sensitive to the heart that emerges here and are unable to be imagined as desirable things (and this is a misalignment with ourselves creating it in the first place)--

I agree. If I hear you right your talking about taking the "self you realize" through yourself illuminated, moves it -self into the greater world as the realization where ever that may be and still hold your presence in all that. What you shared about the sensitive heart is that regardless of how enlightened we may think we are, there is always a process of entering into that space that can signal our humanness and affects via sensitivity and empathy.

[naturesflow]

The merging of male and female is a topical understanding of coming into recognition of androgyny learning to dance with androgyny; we could not ever claim for there to be a disbalance, between the two unless what was included in our focal point was something of exit point; that is to say if you put oil and water together in equal ratio, they would always be in balance and there would be no account for what moves it; thus we are only talking about reconciliation of one thing, one spectrum into a greater spectrum-- That is a greater cohesion that is capable of now dealing with the greater spectrum of being which is not defined at all by male or female principles but in accordance to spirit, which is androgynous upon androgynous--

Yes I agree. I am aware of myself in all this in process, moving into what you refer to as non definable as a more complete awareness in me.

However, what I am talking about I deal with directly as an entirely different way of being (where as recognizing the oneness of the two aspects of a single being prepares one for the next set of teachings that will emerge from the ancient teachings which resonate with our orbital pattern or cyclic time spiral at this time are just a foundation of an ever changing thing), and as such is not discussed truly, because unless you have the right experiences nothing of such subtle natures would be yet relevant; and people are struggling enough with what is going on as it is-- But I find it worth mentioning that such topics as they are often approach are just the peak of another wave upon themselves and there are always greater peaks to be reached; but the next one prepares us for the eternal way or eternity in much more rational and realistic expectations in order to deal with things so beyond us we must be able to have the ability to deal with these things in representational form, thus male and female just being the light and shadow of one aspect of being if we remove the preconceived notions of what light and shadow means to us truly--

All makes sense to my listening, knowing self..thus far.

[firstandlast]

<3

Warm and fuzzy feelings thank you--

[running]

I would say in greater joy one is more able to find peace at any point, but that peace is not the hallmark of an illuminated community which can enjoy all aspects of being regardless of form, and this includes war and blood thirsty vengeance-- But as such things are still sensitive to the heart that emerges here and are unable to be imagined as desirable things (and this is a misalignment with ourselves creating it in the first place)--



The merging of male and female is a topical understanding of coming into recognition of androgyny learning to dance with androgyny; we could not ever claim for there to be a disbalance, between the two unless what was included in our focal point was something of exit point; that is to say if you put oil and water together in equal ratio, they would always be in balance and there would be no account for what moves it; thus we are only talking about reconciliation of one thing, one spectrum into a greater spectrum-- That is a greater cohesion that is capable of now dealing with the greater spectrum of being which is not defined at all by male or female principles but in accordance to spirit, which is androgynous upon androgynous--

However, what I am talking about I deal with directly as an entirely different way of being (where as recognizing the oneness of the two aspects of a single being prepares one for the next set of teachings that will emerge from the ancient teachings which resonate with our orbital pattern or cyclic time spiral at this time are just a foundation of an ever changing thing), and as such is not discussed truly, because unless you have the right experiences nothing of such subtle natures would be yet relevant; and people are struggling enough with what is going on as it is-- But I find it worth mentioning that such topics as they are often approach are just the peak of another wave upon themselves and there are always greater peaks to be reached; but the next one prepares us for the eternal way or eternity in much more rational and realistic expectations in order to deal with things so beyond us we must be able to have the ability to deal with these things in representational form, thus male and female just being the light and shadow of one aspect of being if we remove the preconceived notions of what light and shadow means to us truly--

male and female is just an idea forumlated in an attempt to explain a process imo. all that matters is one becomes the thing he or she was searching for. how it is interpreted doesnt mean anything of any value. unless somehow it helps somebody whom is in that process to help settle the mind i suppose. or for the sake of conversation such as now.

the only teaching once able to experience what some call the merging of shakti and shiva as i see it is in feeling. it certainly is a teaching imo. a very simple one.

[firstandlast]

male and female is just an idea forumlated in an attempt to explain a process imo. all that matters is one becomes the thing he or she was searching for. how it is interpreted doesnt mean anything of any value. unless somehow it helps somebody whom is in that process to help settle the mind i suppose. or for the sake of conversation such as now.

the only teaching once able to experience what some call the merging of shakti and shiva as i see it is in feeling. it certainly is a teaching imo. a very simple one.

You can nullify any thing in the murky waters of knowledge; and yet you would deny an entire history of mankind and its greatest love and story, and to me that is denial of the most highest, which is life as it is lived out; spirit as it imagines itself to be and thus experiences it--

Wisdom is not in knowledge itself--

I have been to places where all your ideas would fail you, where all your concepts of the way things work would could bring your explanations here into ruin, nothing here in terms of knowledge is but the temporal explanation of self as it stands and as it walks-- Until you can understand the lawless land, and what truly gives value; you weigh things upon a heartless ground, where your means to an end, desire the end of the means--

In a land where everything repeats, what is the one thing that does not?

[running]

You can nullify any thing in the murky waters of knowledge; and yet you would deny an entire history of mankind and its greatest love and story, and to me that is denial of the most highest, which is life as it is lived out; spirit as it imagines itself to be and thus experiences it--

Wisdom is not in knowledge itself--

I have been to places where all your ideas would fail you, where all your concepts of the way things work would could bring your explanations here into ruin, nothing here in terms of knowledge is but the temporal explanation of self as it stands and as it walks-- Until you can understand the lawless land, and what truly gives value; you weigh things upon a heartless ground, where your means to an end, desire the end of the means--

In a land where everything repeats, what is the one thing that does not?

your assuming some things. my path back to myself was through traveling back to where i started. in that was lifetimes of experience much of which was war. like living through a time machine. i agree its totally lawless.

whatever it is is not whats important. whats important is that whatever it is can not disrupt ones own joy/love. what is found is the joy/love supercedes the story. not by effort or desire. but that it just does. effort in the process. what is found is effortless.

[firstandlast]

your assuming some things. my path back to myself was through traveling back to where i started. in that was lifetimes of experience much of which was war. like living through a time machine. i agree its totally lawless.

whatever it is is not whats important. whats important is that whatever it is can not disrupt ones own joy/love. what is found is the joy/love supercedes the story. not by effort or desire. but that it just does. effort in the process. what is found is effortless.


That is not what I mean by lawless-- I have no past lives btw, so I do not know such an experience; I was born here, this is my first life--


And love does not supercede the story, the story is one of love; the story is an expression of love and no different--

You may find things through effort, and you may find the same things effortless and each one may appear eternal, this is what I mean by lawless-- One coexists with the other, and yet both are true and yet both can cancel each other out--

[running]

That is not what I mean by lawless-- I have no past lives btw, so I do not know such an experience; I was born here, this is my first life--


And love does not supercede the story, the story is one of love; the story is an expression of love and no different--

You may find things through effort, and you may find the same things effortless and each one may appear eternal, this is what I mean by lawless-- One coexists with the other, and yet both are true and yet both can cancel each other out--

love supercedes the story if its always there. the story is changing. the song remains the same. love in desire for something or getting something is a different kind of love. that kind is part of the story.

the story as i see it can be seen as an act of love. interpreting it the way i described in superseding it makes more sense to me. since its eternal and always. the story changes.

[firstandlast]

love supercedes the story if its always there. the story is changing. the song remains the same. love in desire for something or getting something is a different kind of love. that kind is part of the story.

And yet the whole story never repeats-- It never actually changes..


Also if love is not the whole story, it cannot be greater can it? But that I would say love is the whole story, and it is our inability to recognize love in all its forms.. Without that, we have no ability to mirror conditions with the unconditional--

This is not a knowledge based thing, and such; the story just sets us up for infinity-- The story is the next dimension of being, when that story coherently involves each personal story in a manner that is recognized--

[running]

And yet the whole story never repeats-- It never actually changes..


Also if love is not the whole story, it cannot be greater can it? But that I would say love is the whole story--

love is the whole story if is always there. again we are talking about two different things.

[firstandlast]

love is the whole story if is always there. again we are talking about two different things.


I am not--

If you look closely at what I have been saying, I don't separate anything, and yet I embrace the sense of separation--

[running]

And yet the whole story never repeats-- It never actually changes..


Also if love is not the whole story, it cannot be greater can it? But that I would say love is the whole story, and it is our inability to recognize love in all its forms.. Without that, we have no ability to mirror conditions with the unconditional--

This is not a knowledge based thing, and such; the story just sets us up for infinity-- The story is the next dimension of being, when that story coherently involves each personal story in a manner that is recognized--

if your trying or need to identify or do anything to experience or see love. that is not what im talking about. its effortless and you couldnt stop it if you tryed. in hate is love. in jealousy is love. its better understood imo by thinking of it as simply a byproduct of spirit releasing the body's natural intoxicating abilities.

[firstandlast]

if your trying or need to identify or do anything to experience or see love. that is not what im talking about. its effortless and you couldnt stop it if you tryed. in hate is love. in jealousy is love. its better understood imo by thinking of it as simply a byproduct of spirit releasing the body's natural intoxicating abilities.

Lol than how have you separated it from anything?

How could we have been talking about two seperate things? And really I do not mean this as an argument, I mean to point to the area you need to reconcile in yourself; your map is disorientated or warped by not being coherent in your vision-- This is standard, this is what I have had to do; this is part of the path to higher consciousness--

[firstandlast]

And just to point out what I mean to this; you point out a difference between effort and effortless; to me there is no difference between these two except for the story of the experience, or the way the story is experienced-- Effort does the same thing as the effortless or is part of the same thing that is both effort and effortless--

I enjoy both according to my intent and context within the story-- But when I say this to you, there is a difference between seeing it, being able to shift it or moving in and out of apparent control to shift it which is just different depths or layers of the story which is non-linear-- That being said, if you understand what I mean; it may only be a conceptual understanding and not an experiential understanding or functional understanding but a theoretical understanding-- And this is not where I speak to you from, I speak of the spherical art--

[running]

Lol than how have you separated it from anything?

How could we have been talking about two seperate things? And really I do not mean this as an argument, I mean to point to the area you need to reconcile in yourself; your map is disorientated or warped by not being coherent in your vision-- This is standard, this is what I have had to do; this is part of the path to higher consciousness--

lol. again what we are doing is interpreting some thing to describe it. how it is interpreted does not change anything. to me how im describing it is very easy to understand. the way your describing it makes it sound like you got to do a lot of unnecessary things that actually happen without effort. nor does it even matter do to that.

but whatever. it doesnt make any difference as long as what seems longwinded and unnecessary to me works for u.

[running]

And just to point out what I mean to this; you point out a difference between effort and effortless; to me there is no difference between these two except for the story of the experience, or the way the story is experienced-- Effort does the same thing as the effortless or is part of the same thing that is both effort and effortless--

I enjoy both according to my intent and context within the story-- But when I say this to you, there is a difference between seeing it, being able to shift it or moving in and out of apparent control to shift it which is just different depths or layers of the story which is non-linear-- That being said, if you understand what I mean; it may only be a conceptual understanding and not an experiential understanding or functional understanding but a theoretical understanding-- And this is not where I speak to you from, I speak of the spherical art--

ok. this love that you describe ever come and go?

[firstandlast]

ok. this love that you describe ever come and go?

What is coming and going but that which always is--

[running]

What is coming and going but that which always is--

is that a yes or a no?

[shiningstars]

Enlightenment is illumination. I can't relate to the vets comment.

shiningstars

[firstandlast]

Enlightenment is illumination. I can't relate to the vets comment.

shiningstars


Thank you for your input--

I used the vet aspect to reach a wider range of audience-- Though on this forum, I imagine it isn't the best example--

[shiningstars]

Thank you for your input--

I used the vet aspect to reach a wider range of audience-- Though on this forum, I imagine it isn't the best example--

If you mean there can be some pain involved, I agree - the way out is through and the destination is heavenly.

Thanks firstandlast.

[shiningstars]

What is coming and going but that which always is--

Agreed - transcendence.