Being stabbed in the back. [Archive]

Dwerg

05-02-2017, 04:25 AM

Before giving a response to this, please keep in mind I am emotionally strong and already knows most strategies for coping with extreme situations. The generally repeated advice is not useful for me as I've explored those options

Quick backstory:
My mother is destructive. Years of drug abuse, unstable relationships and now seems to be permanently broken (although part of me refuses the possibility of this, it's hope I guess). She has hurt a lot of people, in particular those closest to her (including me). I know she's hurting too, but all attempt and approaches of providing help and support has failed (including leaving her to herself). A lot of people still love her, always have and we hope she gets better for her own and everyone's sake. But we can't be a part of her life as it leads only to pain and suffering because of her actions.

Today:
She has seemed to become less toxic the past few months, I re-established contact (carefully) to give her a chance. She's well aware that lashing out at me or anyone close to me will result in that fragile new start breaking to pieces. Today she lashed out at my father with wild accusations and several threats, unprovoked. My mother and father are not together btw, they split when I was 2yo. I have healed the scars of the past, but my mother keeps ripping them open. She refuses to let go and move on to something better, she continues to hurt everyone. I really don't want to do this again, but it seems I have to put a ban on her for another extended period of time.

I am the person she cares the most about and is the most afraid of losing, I'm her son. I realized a couple of years ago (on my own) that she was abusive, it was a long and extremely painful process to detach myself from it and I received massive amounts of emotional abuse doing it. I have forgiven her this considering her condition and my understanding of her suffering, but that does not mean I will accept further abuse. It does not deem her actions OK. At the end of it I shut her out of my life 100%, I did not even respond to texts for one whole year. It took considerable mental discipline to not react to anything she said, but I pulled it off because I knew there was no other way. When I (on my own accord) got in contact again she was a lot nicer, she learned that I'm not joking about my boundaries.

It seems now that I have to go no contact again. She went behind my back threatening my father and shortly after acts all nice towards me. I find this to be obnoxious and completely unacceptable, especially since all that she said was blatant lies, hurtful and tried scaring my father into not showing me the texts. That last part was an obvious attempt to cover up something she knew I would dislike. In truth though she can't tell anything to anyone I care about without me knowing because everyone knows I can handle the truth no matter how harsh it is and they'll tell me right away.

I will handle this one way or another, I persevere. The world keeps turning and the sun comes back up. What I wonder is how would you handle this situation? Do you believe some people simply are incurable?

Please respond thoughtfully :smile:

naturesflow

05-02-2017, 05:01 AM

People will try to get to us one or another when they have no boundaries in themselves. Your mother shows that the boundaries are now forcing you to move more indirectly too as she is doing. She is not truly getting it, more changing the direction to still engage with herself in this way.

Boundaries set will continue to show us how strong they really are. So your learning obviously with your strongest link, becomes the strongest you can become in the face of her needs in this way with strong boundaries. Her need is apparent in this regard. Sometimes tough love cant be loving and reach out, but reach down deep in you to your own self love and know your deserve more, hence tough love for others who are not showing respect to your own deserving worth in you.

As children we sometimes take on the role of the parent when the parent cant give to themselves what they need. I call this tough love, tough until it learns deeper of itself to soften and know it doesn't require to be tough anymore.

I cannot say what is curable and incurable, people's pain bodies run deep sometimes, so deep in fact they don't face change as easy as others. You can only do what you need to do for you in the face of her in her ways of behaviour.

Your boundaries will bring out the worse and the best in others, sadly your seeing the worse, which is hard and sad to have to manage. I am sorry you are enduring this. I hope in time it brings to you a more peaceful harmonious situation.

I had a childhood friend once who I discovered was back stabbing me in ways that I was both shocked and upset over. We had shared much together throughout our lives, but the seed in her to bring others down was obviously stronger than our connection that I had thought would after all those years would have her value it. Sadly that wasn't to be. Ten years on I forgave her and brought her back into my life but very limited because to me her need to bring me down in my view of her and her process was still not fully aware and taking responsibility. That sense was confirmed by one of her work collegues later on where by he spoke of her behaviour in this way in the work place. So I am glad I trusted myself and let her go again. I understand why and how she is this way now from her own childhood. I can be aware of her and allow her to live her life and for me mine, if we meet up I am friendly and polite and just be myself, but I have no need to make it any more than that.. I leave the door open for a greater measure of change in others. But I do what is right for myself first and foremost.

Dwerg

05-02-2017, 05:33 AM

naturesflow

05-02-2017, 05:51 AM

Although written in a difficult way, the things I do understand from your response are wise.

The peace I'm currently capable of getting comes from keeping a considerable distance to her. If I'm being brutally honest with myself, I don't sincerely believe I will be brought fully to peace about this until she's not suffering (and thus also does not propogate suffering) or she's dead (not implying anything).

I understand. Peace comes from not always setting boundaries with others but actually opening the boundry in us to feel deeper and let go. So perhaps the point of ending boundaries is coming. When I say going deeper, it just means you have invested so much time to protect yourself against her actions, that sometimes you can be missing something in you for your own peace...I have learned that eventually their is a turning point back to self to let go of something in us that may contain us without realization, because we have been so busy setting the bounds installing those walls.. Peace as I have learned doesn't come from waiting but opening deeper to it in the face of what is "not peaceful" around us and letting all walls fall away...This then becomes about you as peace regardless of the external..

Her pain runs through her entire life back to early childhood. I know she has suffered great injustice and it's understandable she behaves like she does, but it's not acceptable. I feel more sorry for her than I feel anger, but not in a way that would let her use this to manipulate me as she has before. She's addicted to being the victim even when she's the offender which in later cases she most often is.

It is a common story and theme..

My boundaries will not move, they apply strictly to all regardless of relation. The consequence for crossing them is a loss of my time, energy and attention. They will have to deserve my kindness through showing kindness to others themselves if they have done unkind things. There is forgiveness from me, but it's not unconditional. Any apology is worth nothing if the negative actions repeats after apologizing, the minimum requirement is to not repeat harmful actions or ideally doing positive actions.

In my peace even as I move through life now aware of all this, I try not to contain myself with bounds in it all. I find it is better to end the details and lines drawn in myself first to transfer all that loving kindness and forgiveness as me, not me needing to act out with boundaries. This is the point of becoming peace and leading as peace. The story ends in me and naturally what isn't peace falls away of itself naturally. In this way you are choosing to be what you want to model as you. Others feel this deeper. Boundaries that are you in action sometimes are not felt as you but just a boundary in need and acting out.

I don't want to block her out of my life, but as of now I see no other viable option. I wish there was another way, preferably something better that worked with a positive outcome for someone else in a similar situation. I won't stop at least trying to find a better way, hence why I made this thread.

So in the way above I show you is there any reflection in you that might see it is possible to build this as a model in you open and aware and let her feel that and know more readily without action but simply because she feels in you loving kindness and open ness that moves and knows itself as all that.

Silent but powerfully present..to support change naturally of itself in feeling deeper what you have gained yourself. This is learning the art of non doing and non action. Becoming what you are needing to act out for others deeper, so they simply feel your presence and know. In generational healing as the one carrying the power to bring change to your closest connection, your presence will affect greater when they themselves are unwilling to feel what they need to feel and let go of, feel and open deeper in themselves that gives birth to a new way of being more naturally willing. Because they not longer feel your wall/their confinement in them, and open to feel another way.. If you are truly open in yourself to compassion, peace and loving presence, you will notice others in how they respond to you.

Boundaries are necessary but eventually those walls we build will call out to fall away and go deeper into the nature of what is in us.

Baile

05-02-2017, 10:08 AM

What I wonder is how would you handle this situation?I make it a rule to walk away from all toxic people, including family members. If they want to interact with me after that, it's on my terms, not theirs. Yes, some people are beyond your ability to help. That said, is it even our task to help such people? That's a whole other question as people in fact have their own karma to figure out.

Greenslade

05-02-2017, 12:16 PM

Her pain runs through her entire life back to early childhood. I know she has suffered great injustice and it's understandable she behaves like she does, but it's not acceptable. I feel more sorry for her than I feel anger, but not in a way that would let her use this to manipulate me as she has before. She's addicted to being the victim even when she's the offender which in later cases she most often is.Is it understandable, really? I'm going to skip the Life history part but I do empathise with your mother very deeply but we all have ways of dealing with what Life itself throws at us and often the experiences and pain of another are only understandable when we've known those experiences and pain for ourselves. To use an analogy it's like a baby crying because that's the only form of expression they have to express their feelings of something being badly wrong - and they don't even know what's wrong. Very often, through the pain and suffering we can feel that way, we don't understand what we are trying to express never mind how to in any kind of constructive way so we lash out at the ones closest to us. We hurt the ones we Love as a cry for help and have no other way to cry.

Often the only understanding comes from experience. Try screaming your anger and frustration in an empty room that echoes your voice back at you, then imagine that empty room is your mind. That's how it felt for me.

Boundaries become barriers; consequences that you mete out, acceptance and conditions are simply more bricks in the wall. And the wall is a barrier for both the person trying to express what they feel and to the person trying to help them. When the barriers become to high and too thick we look somewhere else; it seems your barriers became too high for your mother and she lashed out at your father - any other direction that was available.

I can empathise with you too because many years ago I went through something similar with my mother. Luckily and perhaps even gratefully I had my own experiences to draw upon and could cross the gulf between us, and it didn't take much more than understanding what had brought her there to understand what she was going through at the time. Yes it hurt, yes it did a lot of damage at the time both to myself and others and yes it cuts you so deeply to know that someone you Love goes through something like that. If you won't stop at least trying to find a better way it reveals so much about you, just had to acknowledge that.

It's times like these, when our backs are firmly against the wall that we find what we need to cope we reach deep inside us we pull our strength from the darkness. It sounds corny but it's true - Love does find a way. I've never been a huge fan of barriers but I do set limits, while the 'Spiritual thing to do' would be to Love and forgive unconditionally that can be very difficult to put into some kind of practice and we're all still human after all. Yes there are times when enough is very much enough but each time of return the limits move and allows the strength to cope come through. Cross the no-man's-land a few steps, retreat and regroup, take a few steps further out next time.

All you see is all you look at, and if all you look at is putting up barriers and your mother not meeting "minimum requirement?"? Those are expressions of yourself.

Sometimes there is no 'better way', the only way it is is the way it is but then there's so much more at play here and quite frankly much of the Spirituality has been missed depending on your beliefs. However, the bottom line is that your mother went through what she did as a part of the Soul Contract (or whatever else you'd call it) so that your Soul could have your experiences and Spiritual Development in this plane of existence. Call it the cost if you like, but it's an expression of her Unconditional Love.

When you drop all of this :-
My boundaries will not move, they apply strictly to all regardless of relation. The consequence for crossing them is a loss of my time, energy and attention. They will have to deserve my kindness through showing kindness to others themselves if they have done unkind things. There is forgiveness from me, but it's not unconditional. Any apology is worth nothing if the negative actions repeats after apologizing, the minimum requirement is to not repeat harmful actions or ideally doing positive actions.
perhaps you'll hear the sound of your own Soul crying out for help to help her.

linen53

05-02-2017, 03:42 PM

My family is very toxic and I learned to walk away from them when I was in my 20's. I moved to another state (not because of them but because that is where my future husband was from) and learned to stand on my own two feet and not have to depend on toxic relationships with family members or from friends either.

That was 40 years ago. I still don't have much to do with family members. By now it's grandkids. I've gotten used to the peace and quiet and really couldn't tolerate family politics anymore.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not angry with my family. It just is what it is. I wish them the highest success in whatever they endeavor to do.

I think you are a much older soul than your mother. She has taught you what not to do through her examples. And you set an example for her as well. Whether she chooses to change is up to her.

If you continue putting yourself in front of her path you take the chance of her abusing you. It's your choice whether you want to continue to do that. But don't think you are going to change her. She is what she is.

davidsun

05-02-2017, 04:14 PM

I make it a rule to walk away from all toxic people, including family members. If they want to interact with me after that, it's on my terms, not theirs. Yes, some people are beyond your ability to help. That said, is it even our task to help such people? That's a whole other question as people in fact have their own karma to figure out.
Reminds me of "Every man shall bear his own burden," in this case meaning 'spirit'ual burden.

Dwerg: I personally found reading Michael Newton's book, Journey of Souls very helpful in terms of stimulating me to become willing and able to 'let (others) go' when and as appropriate instead of compulsively trying to make things 'better' for them even when that wasn't a 'realistic' possibility.

The parts (in the book) dealing with soul/energy 'restoration' and soul/energy 'reconstitution' in the afterlife setting especially helped me to relinquish feelings of OVER-responsibility which were part of my (presumably karmic) baggage. Nowdays I operate with more of less 'full', relatively comfortable, trust that all is 'well' (no matter what!), that whatever 'happens' is basically just fine, i.e. it is all just 'grist for the mill' of our personal and collective spiritual evolution, even though aspects of it may momentarily appear to be headed towards a 'horrible' destiny.

Baile

05-02-2017, 04:14 PM

However, the bottom line is that your mother went through what she did as a part of the Soul Contract (or whatever else you'd call it) so that your Soul could have your experiences and Spiritual Development in this plane of existence. Call it the cost if you like, but it's an expression of her Unconditional Love.That would be the middle line. The bottom line is we are not responsible for peoples' lives. And what the exact Soul Contract is, what it might entail karmically, nobody has any idea. Perhaps the Soul Contract was simply to be born into the dysfunction, to learn how to extricate one's self from dysfunction. Lesson learned. Done. Soul Contract complete.

All we can do is look out for ourselves, first and foremost. Get out of the dysfunction, and get healthy. Then, when one is healthy and capable -- and only if one decides it's STILL part of the Soul Contract -- perhaps take a step towards the dysfunction, and the people involved, in an effort to maybe help resolve it in some way.

Baile

05-02-2017, 04:48 PM

whatever 'happens' is basically just fine, i.e. it is all just 'grist for the mill' of our personal and collective spiritual evolution, even though aspects of it may momentarily appear to be headed towards a 'horrible' destiny.Sure. Agreed. Good insight... AFTER one has first come to this higher understanding you're speaking of. But until then, the dysfunction feels like Sisyphus' boulder. Hard to make any life worth anything when you're being relentlessly crushed by 16 tons, because what do you get? Just another day older and a lot of regret. You know what I'm talkin' 'bout. :tongue:

Dwerg

05-02-2017, 10:06 PM

naturesflow:
My way of maintaining boundaries is low effort. I just block her on the phone, costs me less than a calorie. The entire purpose of maintaining my boundary and keeping my distance to her is exactly so can in fact remain open towards most people. Again it takes very little effort to just keep a huge distance, still isn't the preferred solution though.

Baile: Good point. I know I'm not required to help her or anyone else, but I wish I could. Interaction has only happened on my terms for the past 3 years.

Greenslade:
I can certainly understand how bad experiences are difficult to deal with and that the pain manifests as anger leaking out everywhere. The minimum requirement is to not emotionally abuse me, that is not a terribly high bar to pass. I don't expect anything from her besides not causing a massive drama that hurts a lot of people and serves nobody, yet she continues to do exactly that. I can lower my walls, but I know I will become psychologically raped if I do. I have done that before, ain't doing that again unless there's strong evidence she has actually learned how to not treat people like trash. No matter how bad her past is it will never justify her harmful actions. Also are you saying in a fancy way that what she did towards me was unconditional love? If so then that's sick. She's done directly horrible and in some cases illegal things, including threatening with murder. Following your advice would be detrimental to me, she is by fact dangerous to interact with. She has a very powerful mind, it's just insanely corrupted and evil. She could accomplish great things had she not been consumed with hatred.

shivatar

05-02-2017, 10:21 PM

I believe in unconditional forgiveness, acceptance, and love.

People are free to hate me, to discourage me, to not believe in me, to punch me in the face if they feel so justified to do so.

No matter what they do, I will act towards them how I want to act towards them. If I want to love someone then I will, no matter how much they want me to hate them, no matter how much reason they give me to hate them.

--

Your mother is just a flawed human. She has had impure truths drilled into her head and she never had the opportunity to get those wrenches in the gears out. She has been living in a hell for a long time without a way to get out.

For some reason, your mothers experiences in life taught her to hate her self. Because she never worked to see a new thing, she is caught believing she really is worthy of hate. These days she will do everything in her power to get people to see her how she sees herself.

As a spiritual person it's your duty to see her for the soul she is. Not see her how she sees herself.

Unconditional forgivness, acceptance, and love will help you see her as she is at a soul level. UNCONDITIONAL. not "I will love her if she does ____" or "I will forgive her if she ____".

Develop an adult to adult relationship with her. Stop being a child towards your mother.

Dwerg

06-02-2017, 05:07 AM

Develop an adult to adult relationship with her. Stop being a child towards your mother.
She is the one being a child towards me, I'm being the adult in this. No matter what I do it will be impossible to have an adult to adult relationship without her growing up.

She experienced horrible things at a young age, her mental development halted somewhere in her teenage years. Since she never really properly dealt with the trauma she's still mentally stuck at that age even though she's soon to be 50 years olds.

You make the same erroneous thought about my boundaries as my mother does. I love her unconditionally, but love does NOT mean I must take her abuse. She also says my boundary means I don't really love her, but this is simply a shaming tactic and not true at all. My conditions is not about my feelings for her, it's about shielding myself from her abuse and harassment. Besides, she has worse conditions than me. If I do not nod in complete obedience she will verbally abuse me for the smallest of things, which is unreasonable.

I will not accept anyone treating me like I'm a worthless piece of garbage. There's unconditional non-acceptance of this for me. As for forgiveness I have already forgiven her, but again that does not mean I accept her abuse. It means I understand her pain and won't be angry back at her. I feel more disappointment than anything else, she seemed to be on a good path for a good while but now clearly showed me she hasn't learned anything. I had faith that this was the time she wouldn't self-sabotage and spiral down into hatred. I was wrong.

I already see her for who she really is, because how she sees herself is not true.

Bottom line, I don't hate my mother else I wouldn't even care to make this thread. I don't hate myself either, I will not put myself in harms way if I can choose not to. It probably even hurts her less to have the opportunity to hurt me as well, because deep down she does love me and she's hurting herself by hurting me. She will not notice the pain now, but the guilt and shame of her actions will wash over her within a month, that I am certain of.

I won't participate on that psychotic rollercoaster and thus conditions must be in place. If she does not treat me with love and respect the consequence is my absence.

So I respectfully disagree with you shivatar.

naturesflow

06-02-2017, 06:53 AM

It is what it is, she is who she is, you are who you are. Some times in life their are no solutions to make right something. You just live with the situation, do the best you can, and let the process of life and change if it comes help you decide your movements in all that.

So even as you came with intention to perhaps find another way, through other people's way, the more you seem to show you know everything there is to know and see no point in the offerings, because ultimately she is not showing true change. Her conditioning may remain like this always, It may never change. She may grow into her aging years as all this. Some do. Some don't.

Perhaps that is the realization in all this. That sometimes we can only make what is into the worse case scenario in us and get on with our life. Live with it and make the best out of a very difficult and bad situation. If change comes embrace it. Keep the door open but get on with life.

Greenslade

06-02-2017, 08:34 AM

That would be the middle line. The bottom line is we are not responsible for peoples' lives. And what the exact Soul Contract is, what it might entail karmically, nobody has any idea. Perhaps the Soul Contract was simply to be born into the dysfunction, to learn how to extricate one's self from dysfunction. Lesson learned. Done. Soul Contract complete.

All we can do is look out for ourselves, first and foremost. Get out of the dysfunction, and get healthy. Then, when one is healthy and capable -- and only if one decides it's STILL part of the Soul Contract -- perhaps take a step towards the dysfunction, and the people involved, in an effort to maybe help resolve it in some way.This could well turn out to be a horribly complicated discussion because there are so many factors that come come to bear. Whether we are responsible for other people's Lives is up for debate and whether or not we feel a responsibility is another matter again, there are no hard-and-fast rules on this one either way. I have to let my conscience be my guide and recognise what I am empowered to be able to do but if I can make a difference then I couldn't Live with myself if I didn't at least try. That is who and what I am, Soul Contract done.

Greenslade

06-02-2017, 09:27 AM

I can certainly understand how bad experiences are difficult to deal with and that the pain manifests as anger leaking out everywhere. The minimum requirement is to not emotionally abuse me, that is not a terribly high bar to pass. I don't expect anything from her besides not causing a massive drama that hurts a lot of people and serves nobody, yet she continues to do exactly that. I can lower my walls, but I know I will become psychologically raped if I do. I have done that before, ain't doing that again unless there's strong evidence she has actually learned how to not treat people like trash. No matter how bad her past is it will never justify her harmful actions.The height of the bar that you've set is relative and to her it might well be sky-high as far as she's concerned, and I doubt anyone really knows what's happening in her mind. She may well have a mental health issue, that wouldn't surprise me in the least and if she does she has little control over her actions.

Also are you saying in a fancy way that what she did towards me was unconditional love? If so then that's sick. She's done directly horrible and in some cases illegal things, including threatening with murder. Following your advice would be detrimental to me, she is by fact dangerous to interact with. She has a very powerful mind, it's just insanely corrupted and evil. She could accomplish great things had she not been consumed with hatred.I'm not saying that what she's doing is out of Unconditional Love, what I'm saying is that this is the price she's paying.

I'm going to steal Shivitar's words as an example -
No matter what they do, I will act towards them how I want to act towards them. If I want to love someone then I will, no matter how much they want me to hate them, no matter how much reason they give me to hate them. That's a 'high form' of Spirituality in action, right there.

So what happens now? If nothing changes then nothing changes and you stay with the help her/keep away scenario which is neither here nor there. You can either walk away from it all or you can find a way to interact with her that doesn't involve you feeling psychologically raped, but then nobody can make us feel anything. You can find what you need inside yourself, or not as the case may be. If she has a very powerful mind you can find a way to use that to your advantage or you can find another way that's more advantageous to you. In the meantime, the rock gets bigger, the hard place gets harder and the barriers become insurmountable walls.

It's often in the most difficult of situations that we find what we need the most. The other scary part is that others have to Live with the choices we make, they're not just about us.

Baile

06-02-2017, 09:52 AM

I have to let my conscience be my guide and recognise what I am empowered to be able to do but if I can make a difference then I couldn't Live with myself if I didn't at least try.We are in agreement. The difference is you're speaking from the perspective of the already-healed soul. I'm speaking from the perspective of the damaged soul suffering from the effects of the dysfunction, and who is currently incapable of helping anyone. The step at that point is to get clear of the dysfunctional situation, in order to heal. That's the bottom line and number one priority.

carebear

06-02-2017, 01:25 PM

Stabbed in the back. Ouch.

davidsun

06-02-2017, 02:46 PM

Sure. Agreed. Good insight... AFTER one has first come to this higher understanding you're speaking of. But until then, the dysfunction feels like Sisyphus' boulder. Hard to make any life worth anything when you're being relentlessly crushed by 16 tons, because what do you get? Just another day older and a lot of regret. You know what I'm talkin' 'bout. :tongue:
:icon_thumright: Baile.

It occurs to me that one has the power to, to some degree at least, choose to either RELAX and TRUST (SURRENDER?) and so begin to experience EASE-ily floating 'on top' of Life's often hope-and-desire up-side-down-setting waves (spiritual exhaustion can 'help' one/ego to stop 'struggling' in said regards) or one can 'drown' (so to speak) in 'despair' and get the same kind of 'help' the next (life) time the same personal-soul apropos 'challenge' (test?) comes around.

Baile

06-02-2017, 03:09 PM

It occurs to me that one has the power to, to some degree at least, choose to either RELAX and TRUST (SURRENDER?)

[Or] one can 'drown' (so to speak) in 'despair' and get the same kind of 'help' the next (life) time the same personal-soul apropos 'challenge' (test?) comes around.When I was ill with anxiety depression, people would say, "C'mon, just relax, cheer up!"

Where's Tom Cruise?? Because relaxing and cheering up is like mission impossible for someone who is depressed and suffering from anxiety.

I do agree that "to some degree" the answer lies somewhere in-between those two possibilities and potential outcomes. The problem though is how to get there exactly, how to get into that place. I know how I got there. But I also know I got there, because I was in a position that allowed me the space to get there. I was self-sufficient and didn't have to work for example. I removed myself from the world for a time. And so I didn't have to struggle to put up with peoples' back-stabbing, while I was trying to recover from years of peoples' back-stabbing.

davidsun

06-02-2017, 03:45 PM

I already see her for who she really is, because how she sees herself is not true.

Bottom line, I don't hate my mother else I wouldn't even care to make this thread. I don't hate myself either, I will not put myself in harms way if I can choose not to. It probably even hurts her less to have the opportunity to hurt me as well, because deep down she does love me and she's hurting herself by hurting me. She will not notice the pain now, but the guilt and shame of her actions will wash over her within a month, that I am certain of.

I won't participate on that psychotic rollercoaster and thus conditions must be in place. If she does not treat me with love and respect the consequence is my absence.

So I respectfully disagree with you shivatar.
Sounds quite balanced, spiritually speaking, Dwerg. Has your purpose in posting been served?

Lots of great commentary in this tread, I think. The only thing that comes to mind as a (possible?) additional thought-n-feeling response-stimulus is "If there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not."

Best wishes -

Baile

06-02-2017, 03:46 PM

S"If there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not."That's insightful stuff!

Dwerg

06-02-2017, 04:09 PM

The height of the bar that you've set is relative and to her it might well be sky-high as far as she's concerned, and I doubt anyone really knows what's happening in her mind. She may well have a mental health issue, that wouldn't surprise me in the least and if she does she has little control over her actions.
It does seem near impossible for her to treat people like people yeah. She does have mental health issues. Control is not something she has, that's true.

I'm not saying that what she's doing is out of Unconditional Love, what I'm saying is that this is the price she's paying.
The part about unconditional love was not in response to you.

Stabbed in the back. Ouch.
Metaphorically speaking, not literally luckily. In case that was unclear.

Greenslade

06-02-2017, 08:44 PM

It does seem near impossible for her to treat people like people yeah. She does have mental health issues. Control is not something she has, that's true.I used to work in mental health so I know how a mental health issue can affect people, your whole reality changes and can bear little or no relationship to what is considered 'normal'. What she's doing might not even be through her own volition and she might have no awareness as to how it affects other people in the way you have. I was watching a TEDTalk the other day where a doctor had done 83,000 brain scans, a normal brain was mapped and appeared in the picture as a complete brain, whereas brain disorders such as PTSD and trauma (which your mother could have) looked like a few bits of Swiss cheese.

If you really want to help your mother and you're not able to yourself, I'd suggest at least a therapist or someone with mental health experience. If nothing else it'll give you some insights and perhaps some tips. At the very least cut her as much slack as you can because even her knowing you're there will be a help, but don't get too caught up because that's not a good place. Give her room when it's too much and be there for her guilt and shame because that's when she'll need you the most. Let everything else go, especially your conditions.

Good luck out there.

Greenslade

06-02-2017, 09:00 PM

We are in agreement. The difference is you're speaking from the perspective of the already-healed soul. I'm speaking from the perspective of the damaged soul suffering from the effects of the dysfunction, and who is currently incapable of helping anyone. The step at that point is to get clear of the dysfunctional situation, in order to heal. That's the bottom line and number one priority.From that perspective yes we are in agreement, because if you're no good to yourself then you're no good to anyone else. And if the person is dysfunctional being in a dysfunctional situation can not only perpetuate but also escalate the problems.

Dwerg

06-02-2017, 09:48 PM

Greenslade

10-02-2017, 09:12 AM

Greenslade:
She is aware of how her actions affect people.... A week after she has done them. So her mind kinda works, but extremely slowly.

She has been to therapists before, but she quits because "she's right and the therapist is wrong". She's quite well known by local police and mental health care professionals. She wants help on one side, no help is the help she expects so she practically won't be helped. No surprise as effective therapy will inevitably bring her mind to uncomfortable memories, she will avoid dealing with it and shuts down no matter how considerate a therapist or anyone else is about it.

I try not to care and most of the time I succeed at that. She can not do anywhere near as much damage to my life as she once did. It's mostly an occasional annoyance, but it keeps returning. All she has to do is nothing and she can't do it. She only has to breathe and be in the moment, but she's a prisoner to her mind.That's the curse of a strong mind I suppose, the stronger it is the more difficulty it has in admitting its weakness and the need for help. If she's refusing help then there isn't much anyone can do including you, and if she's well known to the police and mental health professionals it's not going down a good path.

Really though, what are your barriers? Are you trying to find some survival techniques to be able to cope with what's going on? And yes I'll use the word 'survival' because all of this must have a cost on you too; what's coming through is frustration because you can't help her, you don't understand what she's going through and you're bouncing from pillar to post emotionally. To name but a few. I'd go back to what I said about taking a few steps towards her, retreating and regrouping then trying again. And I know you've said you can't interact with her but can you do it on a part-time basis? When she's having an episode then you can completely isolate yourself from her for that period, remembering that what's manifesting is not your mother but the symptoms of her condition. In her regretful times you can be there for her as a shoulder to cry on, that's your 'real mother' coming through and it's perhaps in those times that she'll be more receptive. Don't fight against her but steer her mind towards her acknowledging that she needs help, if you fight against her all you're doing is adding fuel to the fire and sometimes the best way is to let it go out on its own. Respond rather than react, question and suggest rather than tell.

What we don't always (very seldom) understand is what is going on in someone's head, it's difficult for someone going through it to understand never mind articulate it and if that can't happen nobody can understand anyway. That doesn't help the situation because it adds another layer of frustration and anger. Until you've experienced what your mother goes through you'll never really understand it, and you won't have any answers to give her. It's worth trying to at least try and see things from your mother's perspective, she has no control over what she's doing and she regrets it later. She's a strong-minded woman who has lost control of her own mind, how would you feel if you were experiencing that and someone told you that they have all the answers? What are you thinking about your own experiences as you read this? Greenslade doesn't understand, he thinks he has all the answers but he doesn't.... yadda yadda.

No there aren't any easy answers, sometimes there's just doing the best we can to get through it in one piece.

Dwerg

11-02-2017, 03:58 PM

She apologized, turns out she believed the story of another mentally unstable person. The entire story which lead to wild accusations, threats and harmful words was fabricated. My mother apologized to both me and my father.

I told her next time she hears something like this it would be a lot better if she just asked about it rather than assume it's true and throw threats and accusations. She did understand just how little evidence she had and agreed to my assessment of the situation. Still annoying that it took her half a week to figure out her own mistake, still a record compared to a few years ago though.

This is a common issue with my mother, she is incredibly naive in spite of getting burnt on it countless times. It hurts herself most though, but it does have a ripple effect and it is a repeated pattern.

davidsun

11-02-2017, 05:12 PM

... still a record compared to a few years ago though.
I admire/applaud the steadiness of your 'relatedness', Dwerg.

The 'trend' is 'good' news! :icon_cheers:

Dwerg

11-02-2017, 08:08 PM

I admire/applaud the steadiness of your 'relatedness', Dwerg.

The 'trend' is 'good' news! :icon_cheers:
What do you mean by "relatedness"? That I keep track of events? If I did not remember my experiences I could not remember what I learned from them.

Anyways, there is some improvement. She learns the hard way though, it's an extremely long and slow process. She's like a kid touching a hot plate 20 times before being sure it really is hot and it really is super painful, instead of touching it once and never do it again.

I simply have to consistently show her where the line goes, eventually she'll understand that there is no instance where crossing it results in a positive outcome.

davidsun

11-02-2017, 08:38 PM

What do you mean by "relatedness"? That I keep track of events? If I did not remember my experiences I could not remember what I learned from them.

Anyways, there is some improvement. She learns the hard way though, it's an extremely long and slow process. She's like a kid touching a hot plate 20 times before being sure it really is hot and it really is super painful, instead of touching it once and never do it again.

I simply have to consistently show her where the line goes, eventually she'll understand that there is no instance where crossing it results in a positive outcome.
By 'relatedness', I simply meant your 'connectedness' to/with her, which strikes me as being very 'steadily' loving (loving in the sense of wishing and choosing to be positively understanding and effectual 'to the best of your ability', which 'ability' is admirable/laudable because my sense is that most people, including myself, aren't 'up' to that level presently).

High-Five, Man

Dwerg

12-02-2017, 04:17 AM

By 'relatedness', I simply meant your 'connectedness' to/with her, which strikes me as being very 'steadily' loving (loving in the sense of wishing and choosing to be positively understanding and effectual 'to the best of your ability', which 'ability' is admirable/laudable because my sense is that most people, including myself, aren't 'up' to that level presently).

High-Five, Man
Oh, yeah that. Well, it's 10 times worse for her than for me. I can simply walk away and continue whatever makes me happy, she can't walk away from herself though. It's not really having any consequence for me besides being an annoying waste of my time, while she's alienating her family, losing friends, breaking trust and ultimately ends up being lonely.

davidsun

12-02-2017, 05:03 PM

Oh, yeah that. Well, it's 10 times worse for her than for me. I can simply walk away and continue whatever makes me happy ...
I occurs to me that it may not be as 'big' a deal for you (to 'deal' with) as I project it would be for me if I were in your shoes because you have a less 'emotional' personality. That's just speculation on my part, of course. In my case, I have a kind of 'visceral' response to any passion/action/behavior which I 'see' (i.e. 'sense') as being anti-Life in nature and/or effect, this whether it is directed at me or someone/something else. Even when and if I 'aim' or 'choose' to be 'non-judgmental', 'tolerant', 'accepting', etc., there is something 'in' 'me', i.e. 'in' my 'nature' which reflexively 'wishes' said anti-Life of Being 'out' of existence - the thought and feeling being that existence would be be 'better off' if that wasn't 'in' it.

This may simply be a self-serving rationalization, but as far as I can analyze my thoughts and feelings in the above regards, they are a "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." kind of pheonom.

That it may be, and probably is, 10 times 'worse' for her (personally) that it is for you (personally) has no bearing on this matter (for me). I guess, at some level, because I personally 'identify' with all of existence, 'walking away' from it or from her or any element 'in' it is therefore not an emotionally possible choice for me.

I experience all suffering and contraction as being 'mine', just as I experience all happiness/joy etc. as 'mine'. Hence my making a 'big' deal of both mother's anti-Life and your pro-Life doings as you describe.

I hope this helps make the reasoning behind the comments I have made to you understandable.

Dwerg

13-02-2017, 12:20 PM

davidsun:
This is an interesting discussion.
You're almost correct about me. It's not that I am less emotional, I do have strong feelings but I strive to maintain balance. Emotions is not my master, the true me is above it and as such I am the master of my emotions as well as my thoughts. I do not supress as I still feel, I have a meditative approach to the contents of my mind. It is there, but it is not me as I am the one observing it. I may appear less emotional as you say, but your empathy does not fail you, I feel as you would feel but that feeling does not lead to a positive outcome. I strive to follow the path that most likely does.

It sounds like you are trying to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders, that's how I interpret "identify with all of existence". But in truth you have very little control of what happens in existence, what you can control is your place within it.

I strive not to let others suffering cause suffering in me, because it would be socially devastating if everyone thought like that. It would spread like an infection until nobody is happy. I strive to achieve the opposite, to be a source happiness and spread it to those easily affected by others emotions. Basically to people like you, but in that process I would like to teach how to be a source yourself. If everyone learned that then everyone could take care of themselves and lessen the burden on those who strive to reduce suffering among others. I have a rule for myself on this, help myself before I help others or else all is lost.

I see this opposite from you though. Others emotions are not my emotions. My mothers suffering is not my suffering, most likely it's not even hers. It comes from someone giving her pain in the past and it might not even be that someone's suffering, it could come from someone else before that etc. Somewhere along that line someone must do something different to end it. She is the final station for that suffering, I refuse to pass it on and thus the solution is certainly not to suffer for her suffering.

Me being in control of my thoughts and emotions are capable of absorbing it and make the suffering vanish within myself. I make the 'big deal' into a trivial matter in order to stay calm and clear minded so I make the best decision possible.

davidsun

13-02-2017, 06:25 PM

This is an interesting discussion.
Yes, indeedy. Lots of overlap between your and my respective understandings and approaches pertaining to a whole range of issues. Even where there is an 'apparent' divergence, I suspect much of this may just be semantics-related. Let me try to tease out and highlight what may be some significant differences, however.There may be 'real'

It sounds like you are trying to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders, that's how I interpret "identify with all of existence". But in truth you have very little control of what happens in existence, what you can control is your place within it.
'Weight' is a subjective experience. To one who has realized what JC pointed to in statements like: "I have overcome the world," and "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." what I am 'carrying' is no longer 'heavy', except of course during momentary lapses in such realization, which are becoming both less frequent and of shorter and shorter duration.

I strive not to let others suffering cause suffering in me, because it would be socially devastating if everyone thought like that.
What is accepted and embraced as a part of Life may be experienced as an 'opportune-ity' to be explored, not as 'devastating'. Also 'owning' others' suffering doesn't isn't the same as personally feeling the same way that they (may) feel.

It would spread like an infection until nobody is happy.
This makes sense as 'framed' by you, but my 'frame' is: Not if one doesn't get 'sick', in which case one may be able to synthesize and share what has the potential to be 'curative'.

I strive to achieve the opposite, to be a source happiness and spread it to those easily affected by others emotions. Basically to people like you, but in that process I would like to teach how to be a source yourself.
We are in synch in this regard, I think, except I would replace 'strive' with 'surf', and I would qualify what you say about being 'a source' by saying something like 'how to be a more positively functional source'.

If everyone learned that then everyone could take care of themselves and lessen the burden on those who strive to reduce suffering among others.[/quite]
What comes to mind is "The 'poor' ye shall always have with you."

[quote=Dwerg]I have a rule for myself on this, help myself before I help others or else all is lost.
How does "You won;t be able to 'help' others for long if you don't 'help' yourself first, including by way of getting/receiving help if and as your situation warrants your doing so.

I see this opposite from you though. Others emotions are not my emotions.
In 'personal' terms, this makes complete sense. In transpersonal terms (which become more and more 'appealing' as one shifts one's sense of one's 'true' identity to include others' beingnesses, it doesn't (make sense), not completely at least. JC's comments re "This is my body" in relation to bread and "This is my blood" in relation to wine is a pointyer in this regard, I think.

My mothers suffering is not my suffering, most likely it's not even hers. It comes from someone giving her pain in the past and it might not even be that someone's suffering, it could come from someone else before that etc. Somewhere along that line someone must do something different to end it. She is the final station for that suffering, I refuse to pass it on and thus the solution is certainly not to suffer for her suffering.
I can and do relate to this way of framing the issue of 'suffering'. However, at one point I realized that if I could simply eliminate all of the sickness and suffering in the world by a snap of my fingers, I wouldn't do so because it is that which calls 'compassion' and 'caring' forth from peeps who would otherwise simply be inclined to an "I got mine, now you go get yours" philosophical approach.

Me being in control of my thoughts and emotions are capable of absorbing it and make the suffering vanish within myself. I make the 'big deal' into a trivial matter in order to stay calm and clear minded so I make the best decision possible.
'Control' is an illusion which may be maintained for periods of time, not something which is really within anyone's 'control', IMO. :biggrin:

'Balance' is another matter. Like 'surfers', one can become 'better and better' at that.

I continue to admire/applaud your expertise in terms of 'balance', Dwerg.
:hug3:

Added P.S. Some of the philosophical difference(s) between us strike me as being similar to the differences between the practitioners of Hinayana vs. Mahayana buddhism, methinks.

Dwerg

13-02-2017, 10:25 PM

davidsun:
Could you re-do all that in simpler terms, I have a hard time understanding what you actually mean.

What I did understand is what you said about control, I disagree. My job is all about control, my actions certainly affect reality in the way I predict it would most of the time. Many things cannot be controlled, but there's also many things that can. I think people who say control is an illusion try to contol the things that actually cannot be controlled, because in that case it certainly would be an illusion.

I cannot control other people, but I can control myself. Of course it's exhausting and thus control can only be maintained for a period of time, but that's all I need. The time to control myself away from a situation that requires spending energy on self-control. An example is being with my mother, it is exhausting. If I do not control certain aspects of myself with her then she will predictably react in ways that is not going to benefit either of us, it is in fact worse than expending a little bit of effort to avoid it.

davidsun

14-02-2017, 05:46 PM

What I did understand is what you said about control, I disagree.
I also relate to your way of framing the issue of 'control'. :icon_thumright:

... being with my mother, it is exhausting. If I do not control certain aspects of myself with her then she will predictably react in ways that is not going to benefit either of us, it is in fact worse than expending a little bit of effort to avoid it.
Wisdom, indeed. 'The proof' as they say is in 'the pudding'.

It's been a pleasure talking about the issues involved with you. :love9:

Blessings -

Dwerg

14-02-2017, 10:17 PM

It's been a pleasure talking about the issues involved with you. :love9:
You too. I'd say you're at least a bit like me, able to see multiple perspectives simultaneously. Makes for a fairly complex discussion :laugh:

boshy b. good

15-02-2017, 01:08 AM

mother are easy careless. do mothers give up a care, yup.

some stuff is not easy, but some great stuff too.

be bless'd is take careless mother normally, that's worth golds, would we not
want those special golds our opposite sex and haven witness drools too hard.

it's going to make us happy to prompt mother from cool
or chill-off or realer, proven who's boss, you know.

with all mothers, your first day of your life begins now because you say
so, remember careless, remember mother's deeper hope with you.

davidsun

18-02-2017, 04:47 PM

I experience all suffering and contraction as being 'mine', just as I experience all happiness/joy etc. as 'mine'.
Could you re-do all that in simpler terms, I have a hard time understanding what you actually mean.
It's a 'mystical' kind o' thang:
"Don't ask the trees for their names
Don't ask the valleys who their mother is
From my forehead bursts the sward of light
And from my hand springs the water of the river
All the hearts of the people are my identity"

Passport - A powerful poem by renowned Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish

Lucky

18-02-2017, 05:08 PM

Dwerg

20-02-2017, 04:12 AM

A short answer, I empathize with you as my mother also has major issues involving addiction. I know all you want to do is help and fix her, as do I with my mom. There have been times I have to walk away as well. I believe there are emotional vampires that feed off your energy. Misery loves company and when they're not getting the attention they feed off of they can wreak havoc on anyone who is around. To your point, yes there are people who are incurable I believe. We are each here to learn life lessons and put in each other's paths for a reason. Some people don't learn their lessons, and we can not take on the burden of fixing them, as painful as it is to watch.
The hardest part about saying "incurable" is the uncertainty of the future and the certainty of the past. I can't know that for sure until it's too late.

I have settled on not worrying and let cause and effect run its course, no matter the outcome. If she will not learn she will continue getting the same painful consequences of her actions.

She's worse than an emotional vampire, I have thought of her as a black hole. You get caught in her gravity, unable to escape, ripped apart, crushed and consumed by darkness. My orbit must be far enough away to not get sucked into it again.

davidsun

21-02-2017, 09:55 PM

The hardest part about saying "incurable" is the uncertainty of the future and the certainty of the past. I can't know that for sure until it's too late.
I think the Uncertainty Principle applies in every case. Schroedingers Cat is both 'dead' and alive' till it 'becomes' one or the other - and even then it may be both, 'dead' in one 'universe' and 'alive' in another, I suppose.

My own 'view'-based belief, is that one of the attributes/faculties of Life, Consciousness, whatever It is, is Intelligence, which though It may become warped and scattered to the point of becoming black-hole unrecognizable as such is bound to ultimately find Its way, in one form-way or another, to knowing and so living (in) 'truth'.

I project the possibility that souls may have to dis-integrate (not just trans-migrate - that may just 'happen' during/between their final 'stages') - possibly many times over before they 'earn' transformative Life-legs/fins/flippers whatever.

If that's true, the 'best' can do is make our 'best bet' in said regard in relation to any given soul-'case', and on such basis decide whether to devote ('invest'?) our the 'love' energy to sustain or at least 'groom' others process(es) - and then proceed accordingly - letting go and letting 'god' determine the 'outcome', so to speak, in any and every case.

Happy "detaching"! :cool: