Do you ever sometimes forget that others don't think like you?

[Flexi-Girl]

Do you sometimes see something as plain as day and think it's just as clear to everyone else, but when you actually tell someone they have no clue what your talking about? I have noticed this happen when I develop a deeper understanding of a subject, or gain skill in anything whether it's spiritual or not. Sometimes I feel like people don't understand you and it's only months or even years later when what you pointed out to someone is finally discovered by them.

[shivatar]

Ever heard that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink?

We can plant seeds in others but it's their choice when they bloom.

---

Also I'm quite aware of how differently I think but I've learned mastery over it. I used to not be able to control the way I percieved the world. It was like I had spiritual sunglasses on and they were stuck on. After a long time and much effort I figured how to take them off and put on mundane glasses. Now I can be on the same mundane page as everyone else and not be bothered that I'm aware of what everyone else ignores. Or if I want to look deeper into a situation I can put the glasses back on and do so. The down-side is I'm not always hyper aware of everything, the up side is I'm not hyper aware of everything!

Also it's not that different of a thing if I surround myself with certain types of people. if i avoid people who are like me then it does appear I'm thinking very differently from everyone else. It's not always about me being super unique but avoiding groups of people where I feel normal and fit in.

[Flexi-Girl]

Ever heard that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink?

We can plant seeds in others but it's their choice when they bloom.

---

Also I'm quite aware of how differently I think but I've learned mastery over it. I used to not be able to control the way I percieved the world. It was like I had spiritual sunglasses on and they were stuck on. After a long time and much effort I figured how to take them off and put on mundane glasses. Now I can be on the same mundane page as everyone else and not be bothered that I'm aware of what everyone else ignores. Or if I want to look deeper into a situation I can put the glasses back on and do so. The down-side is I'm not always hyper aware of everything, the up side is I'm not hyper aware of everything!

Also it's not that different of a thing if I surround myself with certain types of people. if i avoid people who are like me then it does appear I'm thinking very differently from everyone else. It's not always about me being super unique but avoiding groups of people where I feel normal and fit in.

That makes sense. Maybe I have been living in a bubble for so long I lose sight of other perspectives.

[shivatar]

That makes sense. Maybe I have been living in a bubble for so long I lose sight of other perspectives.

It's easy to avoid people who are a perfect mirror for us to see our self in.


I've had this thought so often "I hate the mirror". Not the mirror in my room but the ability of other people to act as if they were a mirror for my inner self. My mirror in my room only reflects my physical self. the mirror within other people reflects the true me. Seeing the true me is painful because it's scarred, when I sit in isolation and only believe the me in the mirror I can pretend I'm not who I am. When i look in the mirror of others I know who I am in that moment and it's not always beautiful so i've come to avoid other people.

[Flexi-Girl]

It's easy to avoid people who are a perfect mirror for us to see our self in.


I've had this thought so often "I hate the mirror". Not the mirror in my room but the ability of other people to act as if they were a mirror for my inner self. My mirror in my room only reflects my physical self. the mirror within other people reflects the true me. Seeing the true me is painful because it's scarred, when I sit in isolation and only believe the me in the mirror I can pretend I'm not who I am. When i look in the mirror of others I know who I am in that moment and it's not always beautiful so i've come to avoid other people.

I have been thinking similar along this path but the other way around like how we perceive others is a reflection of us. Maybe both of us are right. Maybe like attracts like.

[shivatar]

I have been thinking similar along this path but the other way around like how we perceive others is a reflection of us. Maybe both of us are right. Maybe like attracts like.

How we percieve others is a type of reflection of self, it's projection. When we let go of our perceptions and observe others then we can more easily see the mirror I speak about. projecting is as natural as thinking, understanding what is projection and what is another person, discernment between projection and observation, is the best thing to do in my opinion. Trying to not project is as futile as trying to not think. At best we can create space between thought and action, we can't stop thinking unless we try, at that point we are ignoring thought not stopping it from arising.

[Really!]

Try raising kids, they humble a person ... :smile:
Even when they're 42yrs old like my eldest son & still don't get it! ... :confused:

[Flexi-Girl]

Try raising kids, they humble a person ... :smile:
Even when they're 42yrs old like my eldest son & still don't get it! ... :confused:

I don't have kids, but my cat puts me in my place. :wink:

[ocean breeze]

Yes, i sometimes forget that people aren't as wise, amazing, humble, discipline, authentic and not nearly as beautiful as i am. Its like i have to constantly remind myself that its ok, not everyone can be as awesome as me. :icon_razz:

[Lorelyen]

We're individuals. We are our experiences. We may not think like each other but we have rituals and a "system of things" that puts us on common ground. We may not think precisely like anyone else but we have some of the same things to think about and often intellectualise in similar ways.

But, one person's food is another's poison.

No matter. We get by. People often come to realisations on a need-to-know basis.

:smile:

[Flexi-Girl]

Yes, i sometimes forget that people aren't as wise, amazing, humble, discipline, authentic and not nearly as beautiful as i am. Its like i have to constantly remind myself that its ok, not everyone can be as awesome as me. :icon_razz:

EXACTLY! You get me. :hug: Too bad the rest of the world appreciate doesn't appreciate my amazingness. :rolleyes:

[Flexi-Girl]

We're individuals. We are our experiences. We may not think like each other but we have rituals and a "system of things" that puts us on common ground. We may not think precisely like anyone else but we have some of the same things to think about and often intellectualise in similar ways.

But, one person's food is another's poison.

No matter. We get by. People often come to realisations on a need-to-know basis.

:smile:

That's so true. I think we forget that when we get wrapped up in our own lives.

[jojobean]

Yes, i sometimes forget that people aren't as wise, amazing, humble, discipline, authentic and not nearly as beautiful as i am. Its like i have to constantly remind myself that its ok, not everyone can be as awesome as me. :icon_razz:

I know.. right!:D

[jojobean]

I kind of like being a different thinker than everyone else. It makes life more interesting and less sheeplike.

sometimes I wonder if I am insane though, because not a lot of people "get" me. but then again, they don't have to... they should just adore me anyway.

[lemex]

Do you sometimes see something as plain as day and think it's just as clear to everyone else, but when you actually tell someone they have no clue what your talking about? I have noticed this happen when I develop a deeper understanding of a subject, or gain skill in anything whether it's spiritual or not. Sometimes I feel like people don't understand you and it's only months or even years later when what you pointed out to someone is finally discovered by them.

Actually this is part of the communication process. I remember learning about this when I studied management principles in my job to understand barriers that affected communicating with others but it recognizes communication is a two way and continuous and open process. The value is it still leads to understanding and future action through time by making ideas and expectations known or understanding at a later time. It can still allow a person to learn because they heard. It is input. This recognizes communication is a two way process and best understood in terms of patience and people do reflect about things they hear but you may not see. :smile: Me, I always want information to learn to think outside the box and even apply later on.

People who most often see this are parents, teachers and trainers for example.

[Glacier Serenade]

ugh, yes, and no...

What I mean is, my mind works in very complex ways others will never understand, adding to my instinct to stay quiet most of the time around others. But it's in "simple" convos that I might say something that I would assume is obvious, like "do I have to spell it out?" and I seem like I do, to some people, or my mum is just at that age :D and at times I don't understand something straight away someone has said to me, possibly because my mind is very open to the list of possibilities they might also mean, you know. lol, people :P

[shivatar]

Yes, i sometimes forget that people aren't as wise, amazing, humble, discipline, authentic and not nearly as beautiful as i am. Its like i have to constantly remind myself that its ok, not everyone can be as awesome as me. :icon_razz:


I really hope that's a lot of sarcasm. lol

[wstein]

Do you sometimes see something as plain as day and think it's just as clear to everyone else, but when you actually tell someone they have no clue what your talking about? I have noticed this happen when I develop a deeper understanding of a subject, or gain skill in anything whether it's spiritual or not. Sometimes I feel like people don't understand you and it's only months or even years later when what you pointed out to someone is finally discovered by them. I don't 'forget' too often. However, I am frequently running into things that are obvious to me but not to others. This is most poignant with hi IQ people. I have this obviously wrong idea that high IQ means smart.

To be a bit fair, what is 'plain as day' is often a matter or perception not thinking.

[ocean breeze]

I really hope that's a lot of sarcasm. lol

Why should it matter?

EXACTLY! You get me. :hug: Too bad the rest of the world appreciate doesn't appreciate my amazingness. :rolleyes:

I know.. right!:D

You see, great minds think alike. :biggrin:

[shivatar]

Spirituality ought to humble a person not bring them pride. If a person is using spirituality to elevate their self they are caught in an ego trap.

[ocean breeze]

Good thing i'm not spiritual or trying to be. :biggrin:

[naturesflow]

Do you sometimes see something as plain as day and think it's just as clear to everyone else, but when you actually tell someone they have no clue what your talking about? I have noticed this happen when I develop a deeper understanding of a subject, or gain skill in anything whether it's spiritual or not. Sometimes I feel like people don't understand you and it's only months or even years later when what you pointed out to someone is finally discovered by them.


Personal views take time for some even as it may be plain as day to yourself. I see lots and share, people stop and stare, sometimes try and see other times say, they cannot see so for them it doesn't make sense. Most often they learn through their own experience if they need to see anything. If they don't then it is not for them to see... It is how life works, we in our own unique view and piece share some common points of awareness but not always in the order we might think will happen.

[Shivani Devi]

Do you sometimes see something as plain as day and think it's just as clear to everyone else, but when you actually tell someone they have no clue what your talking about? I have noticed this happen when I develop a deeper understanding of a subject, or gain skill in anything whether it's spiritual or not. Sometimes I feel like people don't understand you and it's only months or even years later when what you pointed out to someone is finally discovered by them.I don't get the chance to ever forget. I am reminded every time I have a conversation.

The kicker is when you remind them they are now discovering something you pointed out weeks/months before and they're all like "no, no you didn't say anything about that" and you can't say you did, without any witnesses, even though you know you said it...then you start questioning your own memory....

In the end, all you can say is "good for you, I wish I had thought of that" *sigh*

It's a great lesson in humility to deny having said or done something you know you said or did simply on the 'say so' of another person because you can't prove it (but neither can they).

I usually don't 'point out' things to such people anymore...easier that way. lol

[Baile]

It's a great lesson in humility to deny having said or done something you know you said or did simply on the 'say so' of another person because you can't prove it (but neither can they).

I usually don't 'point out' things to such people anymore...easier that way. lolAnother way of looking at this: Pointing out the truth, is manifesting and bringing truth to the situation. Without truth, untruth is allowed to run rampant. We're all truth warriors in many ways.

Example: A couple weeks ago, I and several people were standing in line at the grocery checkout with items in our arms. The woman in front of me was blocking access to the conveyor you place your items down upon. There was a good 7 feet between her and the person in front of her, who was paying for his groceries. I leaned in and said to her: "There's a lot of space in front of you, do you mind moving up?" She replied in a mocking voice, "Yeah, because I'm considerate and I give the person in front of me space." She snickered and guffawed while looking around to others for confirmation, as if to say, "Can you believe this guy?"

Truth warrior time!

I replied, "If that's your reason, then you'd be considerate of the several people behind you as well, who would like to put their groceries down."

[Shivani Devi]

Another way of looking at this: Pointing out the truth, is manifesting and bringing truth to the situation. Without truth, untruth is allowed to run rampant. We're all truth warriors in many ways.

Example: A couple weeks ago, I and several people were standing in line at the grocery checkout with items in our arms. The woman in front of me was blocking access to the conveyor you place your items down upon. There was a good 7 feet between her and the person in front of her, who was paying for his groceries. I leaned in and said to her: "There's a lot of space in front of you, do you mind moving up?" She replied in a mocking voice, "Yeah, because I'm considerate and I give the person in front of me space." She snickered and guffawed while looking around to others for confirmation, as if to say, "Can you believe this guy?"

Truth warrior time!

I replied, "If that's your reason, then you'd be considerate of the several people behind you as well, who would like to put their groceries down."
That's a great story. I also found it slightly amusing.

Thing is, one can argue about what 'he said/she said' for hours and get nowhere - Unless I had a tape recording or witnesses, there's no proof I said what I did...and instead of them saying "I'm sorry, I don't recall you saying that" (which would admit to a personal fault in memory), they go "no you did not say that" to place the onus/blame back on me. It is a human deflection tactic.

I also don't know what to do in this situation, where I know I said something and the whole TRUTH of the matter is they weren't even listening when I first said it...but I still can't prove I did, but they can't prove I didn't either and then I'm like "whatever you say is a fair thing" and being all sarcastic because that's the only way I can get out of this situation, unless you have a better way. :cool:

[Baile]

Thing is, one can argue about what 'he said/she said' for hours and get nowhere - Unless I had a tape recording or witnesses, there's no proof I said what I did...and instead of them saying "I'm sorry, I don't recall you saying that" (which would admit to a personal fault in memory), they go "no you did not say that" to place the onus/blame back on me. It is a human deflection tactic.Beautiful reply! Love it when these conversations build and progress and go somewhere. So then I say to you: you don't have to argue. But you can bring the truth hammer down. As in: "I'm walking away because I don't argue with people who don't speak the truth. Have a great day."

I've walked away from many friends and colleagues, pretty much in this very way. Like, that was the last time I ever spoke to them, and never saw them again after that. I agree: arguing with such people is a complete waste of time. But there are ways to get one's truth across without having to say another word afterwards.

[Shivani Devi]

Beautiful reply! Love it when these conversations build and progress and go somewhere. So then I say to you: you don't have to argue. But you can bring the truth hammer down. As in: "I'm walking away because I don't argue with people who don't speak the truth. Have a great day."

I've walked away from many friends and colleagues, pretty much in this very way. Like, that was the last time I ever spoke to them, and never saw them again after that. I agree: arguing with such people is a complete waste of time. But there are ways to get one's truth across without having to say another word afterwards.Yes, it gets worse when one is autistic and has an eidetic memory - I can say "yeah I said that to you last Wednesday at exactly 12:30pm and we were at Subway and you wore jeans and a blue sweater and you said this to me in reply at the time...."

It still doesn't work. *sigh*

However, I can take solace in the fact that a politician can deny saying something he has gone on recorded media as having said that and have all his followers believe he never said it even though I heard it "we will not raise this tax'...a week later the tax is raised...reporter plays him saying "we will not raise this tax" and politician says "I never said that"...it never ceases to fascinate me...

[Baile]

However, I can take solace in the fact that a politician can deny saying something he has gone on recorded media as having said that and have all his followers believe he never said it even though I heard it "we will not raise this tax'...a week later the tax is raised...reporter plays him saying "we will not raise this tax" and politician says "I never said that"...it never ceases to fascinate me...When Bush and Cheney fabricated several excuses to invade Iraq, I wrote at the time: "We have entered the age where the lie has become the truth. This is the next lesson collective humanity is required to learn." And we now see this x10 with Trump. And fake news. And the non-reporting of real and important news. The Age of Aquarius will be going on for a couple thousand years. And this time round we won't have Pisces Age religion and the Church to figure it out for us and tell us what's good and bad. This is all on us now. And we asked for it, it's all part of our evolution.

[Shivani Devi]

When Bush and Cheney fabricated several excuses to invade Iraq, I wrote at the time: "We have entered the age where the lie has become the truth. This is the next lesson collective humanity is required to learn." And we now see this x10 with Trump. And fake news. And the non-reporting of real and important news. The Age of Aquarius will be going on for a couple thousand years. And this time round we won't have Pisces Age religion and the Church to figure it out for us and tell us what's good and bad. This is all on us now. And we asked for it, it's all part of our evolution.EXACTLY!

It happened to me about six months ago when I made a bit of a rant (on another forum) about ISIL blowing up the Palmyra Arch in Syria (I'm a lay archaeologist)...I saw it on the TV news.

I got "you can't trust the media" and "only get an independent news source" and "the arch still stands" and "that's only propaganda" etc

I was like "but I saw the ruins of it...it was blown up and that archaeologist dude was killed..."

They are like "that's what they WANT you to believe! - it was all done in a film studio - like a movie..."

Then I go "...and I 'spose the moon landing was done the same way eh?"

This was my first taste of it....and yes, I'm seeing it in the whole world now, especially with what is going on in Europe...but Trump too....

[Baile]

I was like "but I saw the ruins of it...it was blown up and that archaeologist dude was killed..."

They are like "that's what they WANT you to believe! - it was all done in a film studio - like a movie..."Do you sometimes forget that others don't think like you? :wink:

Just joking, I thought I'd bring it back to the thread topic because there are times when people just think differently, and so c'est la vie. And then there is this self-absorbed, bullying mindset spreading in society, along the lines of "I can think, do and say whatever I feel like, and you can't do anything about it." Social media is definitely responsible in that people no longer have to any kind of reasonable accountability for what they say. So they say anything, often just to prove they can get away with it, and that you can't do anything about it.

[Shivani Devi]

Do you sometimes forget that others don't think like you? :wink:

Just joking, I thought I'd bring it back to the thread topic because there are times when people just think differently, and so c'est la vie. And then there is this self-absorbed, bullying mindset spreading in society, along the lines of "I can think, do and say whatever I feel like, and you can't do anything about it." Social media is definitely responsible in that people no longer have to any kind of reasonable accountability for what they say. So they say anything, often just to prove they can get away with it, and that you can't do anything about it.Yes, I believe they call this "the age of entitlement" and what it all boils down to just who is more entitled. It is a 'trophy society'.

They are right though, you can't do anything about it. This whole attitude condones it.

It's all about anonymity both online and off. People aren't accountable/responsible for what they say or do anymore.

They are like "if it isn't illegal, it's fair game". It's a common trend among gen X and Y.

My parents call it a total lack of morals, ethics, values and norms within society.

It's all breaking down and dissolving into entropic free-fall now.

[Baile]

It's all breaking down and dissolving into entropic free-fall now.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Surely some revelation is at hand...
~ WB Yeats

...

[Shivani Devi]

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Surely some revelation is at hand...
~ WB Yeats

...Nice poem to compliment my Blake one. I just saw this. :smile:

Yes, this is total anarchy. The only way to describe it.

I think people are thinking "the world cannot be any more stuffed-up than it is, so we'll elect all the left-wing extremists and either make the world 'great again' or damn it to hell and destroy it totally". It's a time of reckoning.

[n2mec]

Sometime I need to know when to just keep my mouth shut, leave things alone, let it come into its own time.

[Flexi-Girl]

Thanks all for the valuable responses. I have learned a lot from your teachings and have expanded on my original premise somewhat.

I think as we each choose to develop our selves in any discipline in life, we become so accustomed to our own personal lens and we forget how far we have come compared to the many.

As an example, I have dedicated many years to my yoga practice, and therefor I find it very easy. When others watch me, they are impressed, but I don't see it as such. What I do at my level is basic, I suppose.

I would not consider myself much of an artist. Compared to someone who has devoted themselves to that discipline, they will seem exceptional whereas, they may not think highly of their work.

As I ponder this further. Whichever area we are developed in we may see others as lacking compared to us, or we may perceive others as being more fortunate only because of the difference in development. Maybe this is the root of conflict.

[Baile]

I would not consider myself much of an artist. Compared to someone who has devoted themselves to that discipline, they will seem exceptional whereas, they may not think highly of their work. As I ponder this further. Whichever area we are developed in we may see others as lacking compared to usIt seems you spend a fair bit time compartmentalizing and comparing yourself to others. Most of what we place in front of us as obstacles, are an illusion really. For example, what is an artist? Someone who makes a living at their craft? Then most people are artists because they work at what they do, and become good at it, and make a living doing it. So no need then for the concept "artist" and you can just let it go! We are all life artists, that's what I've come to see.

[Flexi-Girl]

It seems you spend a fair bit time compartmentalizing and comparing yourself to others. Most of what we place in front of us as obstacles, are an illusion really. For example, what is an artist? Someone who makes a living at their craft? Then most people are artists because they work at what they do, and become good at it, and make a living doing it. So no need then for the concept "artist" and you can just let it go! We are all life artists, that's what I've come to see.

I am only using my own comparisons as an examples to illustrate how the path I have tread through life gives me an awareness that others may not have and the other way around. People don't always follow my line of reasoning because either I haven't explained myself well enough, or they just haven't had experience.

[Baile]

I am only using my own personal examples to illustrate how the path I have tread through life gives me an awarnes that others may not have and the other way around. People don't always follow my line of reasoning either because I haven't explained myself well enough, or they just haven't had experience.Well there appears to be more to it than just that, otherwise why would you write, "Maybe this is the root of conflict." What conflict? Is this not about a conflict in yourself, that you hope to identify and resolve? That's what I understood, and why I replied as I did.

[Flexi-Girl]

Well there appears to be more to it than just that, otherwise why would you write, "Maybe this is the root of conflict." What conflict? Is this not about a conflict in yourself, that you hope to identify and resolve? That is was what I understood, and why I replied as I did.

What I am trying to say is my own unique experiences allow me to see truths that others may not only because I have a deeper understanding of such thing. In other words I have a context for thinking the way I do. Same with everyone else.

So if I know something as "true" and other people aren't perceiving it, that could lead to conflict.

I am only using personal examples not because I have a problem that needs fixing necessarily.

[Flexi-Girl]

Sometime I need to know when to just keep my mouth shut, leave things alone, let it come into its own time.

I think that's how I feel.

[Baile]

So if I know something as "true" and other people aren't perceiving it, that could lead to conflict.Oh I see, okay. Carry on then!

[FallingLeaves]

Yes, I believe they call this "the age of entitlement" and what it all boils down to just who is more entitled. It is a 'trophy society'.

They are right though, you can't do anything about it. This whole attitude condones it.

It's all about anonymity both online and off. People aren't accountable/responsible for what they say or do anymore.

They are like "if it isn't illegal, it's fair game". It's a common trend among gen X and Y.

My parents call it a total lack of morals, ethics, values and norms within society.

It's all breaking down and dissolving into entropic free-fall now.

I just keep finding it ironic that the position 'there is no room to choose in anything (which is the position you take when you say there is no free will)' keeps ramping up to such contemplations about the morality of the choices being made. Really, if there are no choices everything is a meaningless jumble.

Because really, how can you meaningfully apply accountability/responsibility to a being that has no ability to make choices? He is doing what he had to do and your response is just more of the same! And you can't even apply it meaningfully even if he did somehow have a choice you can't contemplate because you personally don't have any choice but to apply it in the first place!

And how can you say things like 'this attitude condones it' and really mean anything, when the truth is the fact that nothing can deviate from what must be is the overriding concern that condones EVERYTHING? Sure you can split reality into pieces and show exactly how the lack of choices affects everything, and which affects other things, if you are in the position where your own lack of choices allows such contemplation, but how is that in any way meaningful?

And if a free-fall can't be avoided because there is no choice in anything, I hope you realize the only way you can be found bemoaning it is that your own lack of choices put you in such a position to be able to think those thoughts, but again I call it meaningless since there was no choice but for it to happen anyway.

[Shivani Devi]

I just keep finding it ironic that the position 'there is no room to choose in anything (which is the position you take when you say there is no free will)' keeps ramping up to such contemplations about the morality of the choices being made. Really, if there are no choices everything is a meaningless jumble.

Because really, how can you meaningfully apply accountability/responsibility to a being that has no ability to make choices? He is doing what he had to do and your response is just more of the same! And you can't even apply it meaningfully even if he did somehow have a choice you can't contemplate because you personally don't have any choice but to apply it in the first place!

And how can you say things like 'this attitude condones it' and really mean anything, when the truth is the fact that nothing can deviate from what must be is the overriding concern that condones EVERYTHING? Sure you can split reality into pieces and show exactly how the lack of choices affects everything, and which affects other things, if you are in the position where your own lack of choices allows such contemplation, but how is that in any way meaningful?

And if a free-fall can't be avoided because there is no choice in anything, I hope you realize the only way you can be found bemoaning it is that your own lack of choices put you in such a position to be able to think those thoughts, but again I call it meaningless since there was no choice but for it to happen anyway.I'm going to have to read this a few times before I will get it.

Thing is that even if we do not make a choice, we are still choosing by not making the choice.

What I am saying really is that our choices have already been taken into account even before we make them.

Of course, we can make choices that influence our immediate situation and things 'in out control' like what to have for dinner or where we go if we have the choice to go to two places at the same time.

I guess we are just saying the same thing.

[Really!]

As I ponder this further.Whichever area we are developed in we may see others as lacking compared to us, or we may perceive others as being more fortunate only because of the difference in development. Maybe this is the root of conflict.

BINGO!!!
We're all different, we progress at our own speed ...
Even if it's annoying to one's self or other people ...
I've prayed many times for patience w/my kids & others ...