Faith in spirituality without experience?

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Hi there. So, yet another existential crisis thread here....

There are lots of reasons behind my current state of depression, but the one I'm trying to figure out here is my lack of faith in even the most basic concepts of spirituality, like love and the soul.

My question is: For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?

[Miss Hepburn]

Since there was a time when I didn't have experiences under my belt...
I think I can still answer.

Find someone you respect...and read their teachings or anything
about their experience;
People that you trust for whatever reason.
Maybe they had no reason to lie...since they had only a loin cloth, I dunno.
Poets, mystics, yogis, masters... ?

I think you will find they all say basically the same thing...
that should cause you to scratch your head...when
someone in 500 AD says, what a mystic said in the 1500s...see?
Makes you have a little more faith in the 'unseen'.

Oh, I wonder if NDEs would help also...
www.nderf.org (http://www.nderf.org)

[firstandlast]

Sometimes we will find that certain meanings aren't very clear to us until later on-- First of all, can you have faith in an idea in which you do not know the experience/meaning of?

Well you can't have faith in anything you don't understand, if you didn't understand the concept of god, you couldn't have faith in the concept, if you didn't know god you couldn't have faith beyond the concept; but that certain such things, are so vast in meaning that we can have degrees of faith--

But let us look a bit closer-- Our thoughts are not truly aligned with our choices, our thoughts just explain our choices; but not truly in the grand scheme of things; like you may think you want a coke, but that this doesn't necessarily come from the angle of why you even like coke in the first place--

That is something of a poor example of what I mean, but lets say this; do your actions continually seek something greater than yourself even of it is just an understanding of self that you are looking for? Do you act in your own honor and integrity even when you see others not doing the same? That is faith, if you didn't have faith of some sort, you would not bother upholding the standards of self you have made for yourself without some sort of belief in them, even when no one else, or not many others, or a few here and there do not take the same actions--

Sometimes what we truly call faith, has little to do with what we think about things, but the actions we take and the belief in why we should take those actions-- This alone is the strongest faith, it is not the faith of something up ahead, it is not faith in a promise, but faith in a way that acts as if something in your heart would be a promise upheld--

There is no lack of faith, but a matter of truly understanding where our faith lays-- If your rationality doesn't allow room for spirituality or spiritual experiences, and yet you still seek to understand why you should have faith in it, or why its a valid path.. Than you have more faith than you believe, and that your thoughts are giving form to how you experience that path or journey that your own faith gives you--

I am coming from someone who has in thought found absolute lack of faith in everything, and it is only when I reached this point; could I see the faith in my actions and choices with the people around me-- My thoughts may have screamed no faith, by my choices and actions screamed BELIEVE! And faith was beyond myself, endowed by the universe-- Faith in the mind is like grace itself, it is given when you are ready, when such grace would be truly graceful for you--

[Rayden_Greywolf]

How many years of despair until I understand, though?

I feel as though I can't just continue relying on my interests and values alone forever.

[firstandlast]

How many years of despair until I understand, though?

I feel as though I can't just continue relying on my interests and values alone forever.


You should understand that though there are set down paths, that each true road is as unique as the individual that traverses it-- It is not so simple to lay down such defined things-- Sometimes this can be done under the right circumstances and when the right relationships come into play, some people are truly there to lay down your own growth during a certain part of your path--

I however am not here for you in the capacity; nor should you be so quickly to trust anyone who does (nor to be so closed minded that it couldn't happen either)--

However, let us say that at this point, there are bigger things at play; and though this is always true, such a thing has never been more relevant to our situation in a conscious manner-- You are not alone in what you are experiencing, and though it may not feel like it; everything happens down to the minute detail for a reason beyond mundane rationality, but that every living thing is prone to the experience of feeling mistakes (or miss-orientated thoughts and expectations), and sometimes we must learn to trust (not have faith) those things that prove trustworthy according to their intentions declared to you and the actions that they take--

But that some people are taking position for what is called "disclosure" in some circles, as well as "new age" "apocalypse" and yada yada; and such things have been rumored for so long, that in many ways, you were meant to lose trust in these ideas or faith in such a thing occurring-- This is quite on purpose, because what is coming is unsuspected by all, and so our preconceived notions of such things required brutal beatings, and in a certain sense.. this is part of the whole path, that your preconceived notions of all this that is being spoken about, must be beaten down, so that in the ruins of your shattered beliefs may blossom a rose from fertile soil, or soil READY for something beyond all they have explored in the mundane realm, and mundane spirituality, which is mostly what is happening on this site.. That is why there is so much conflict between views, because the supporting webs being weaved are becoming more apparent; yet with no supporting web between them; from the cracks emerge the light--

[Rayden_Greywolf]

I don't know, I just feel kind of.... Helpless. The more I attempt to research my spiritual problems, the more doubt I accumulate. How can I live my life with any purpose or meaning if all I have to go on is that maybe some day I'll "get it"?

I understand this is all coming from a negative place. I don't mean to sound whiny or angsty. It's just very difficult to accept that everything will be okay and I'll figure things out eventually when that's what I've been telling myself for years.

[firstandlast]

I don't know, I just feel kind of.... Helpless. The more I attempt to research my spiritual problems, the more doubt I accumulate. How can I live my life with any purpose or meaning if all I have to go on is that maybe some day I'll "get it"?

I understand this is all coming from a negative place. I don't mean to sound whiny or angsty. It's just very difficult to accept that everything will be okay and I'll figure things out eventually when that's what I've been telling myself for years.


I quite understand <3--

The reason spiritually inquiry is important outside of yourself, is to develop a language for yourself that is manifested in a shared context-- Basically, this is the importance of scripture, but scripture itself is not useful until it has been "illuminated"-- This won't happen until you are able to look inside yourself, but that is difficult to do when you do not know how to gain answers for yourself, then you can better understand the context of the answers outside of yourself--

Meanwhile, all I can say is that I have passed through such abysses, where even the light at the end of the tunnel is out of view, and no direction seems apparent.. You are on the path best for you, because it is you-- And all I can say is that there is no room without a door that you can enter; but sometimes the doors rotate.. this universe has quite the humor, which can actually be pretty twisted, as twisted as the humor of any human--

All I can provide is maybe a bit of hope, as having passed through such stages as yourself, that you may appear lost, but you aren't lost at all; you just don't feel found-- This is okay, feel your feelings deeply, I am not here to deny how you feel, but tell you what I have felt in hopes it helps you feel a bit different; but sometimes words can only take us so far--

[Dargor]

I can tell you it is very hard. I may have experienced something spiritual in my dream once involving an unknown spirit being, yet I still find it very difficult to have faith and it's incredibly frustrating because I can't get any info out of this being other than my own speculation. At times I tried to let go of this ''fantasy'' but somehow I keep feeling myself drawn back to it. Pretty silly isn't it? So even though that experience made me aware of something, it still doesn't answer my questions or set anything in stone.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

I can tell you it is very hard. I may have experienced something spiritual in my dream once involving an unknown spirit being, yet I still find it very difficult to have faith and it's incredibly frustrating because I can't get any info out of this being other than my own speculation. At times I tried to let go of this ''fantasy'' but somehow I keep feeling myself drawn back to it. Pretty silly isn't it? So even though that experience made me aware of something, it still doesn't answer my questions or set anything in stone.

Exactly. Like, I've had one or two dreams that felt "different" in that they involved a character that really stood out as something possibly spiritual. But then I never heard from them again.

Its like...there's no foundation to build a meaningful belief system upon, if you haven't had consistent, or else, incredibly powerful experiences.

[firstandlast]

Its like...there's no foundation to build a meaningful belief system upon, if you haven't had consistent, or else, incredibly powerful experiences.


Very key, a potent understanding-- You are further along than you believe--

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Very key, a potent understanding-- You are further along than you believe--

People keep telling me that. It confuses me to no end xD

[shivatar]

Exactly. Like, I've had one or two dreams that felt "different" in that they involved a character that really stood out as something possibly spiritual. But then I never heard from them again.

Its like...there's no foundation to build a meaningful belief system upon, if you haven't had consistent, or else, incredibly powerful experiences.


Stick to one belief system and build devotion. Not everybody gets God to appear to them in a dream or as a burning bush, and usually according to mystics the firm conviction in a belief or faith comes after a long period of trials.

Like 20 year trials. Things that take up a considerable portion of your life, those are trials. The yearly catastrophe and the daily struggles are just events in the massive trails we endure during life.

---

Something that helped me to endure is realizing that life is never going to be all peaches and cream. A life of union with God is often filled with demanding physical labor, sometimes separation with family, persecution from peers. etc etc. Any reward of a spiritual system comes from the sacrifice we are willing to put into the system.

---


It's like this. Faith can be built by coming to one religion with your problems. If you get anxiety each day for a month, and you take your anxiety concern to 30 different religions and Gods, then you wouldn't have much faith in any one of them. But if you take your anxiety concern to one God, it's like you begin to have faith that even if the problem arises again, your God will be there to help you. Faith can be felt after a long period of trials in which we continually return to the same solution.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Stick to one belief system and build devotion. Not everybody gets God to appear to them in a dream or as a burning bush, and usually according to mystics the firm conviction in a belief or faith comes after a long period of trials.

Like 20 year trials. Things that take up a considerable portion of your life, those are trials. The yearly catastrophe and the daily struggles are just events in the massive trails we endure during life.

---

Something that helped me to endure is realizing that life is never going to be all peaches and cream. A life of union with God is often filled with demanding physical labor, sometimes separation with family, persecution from peers. etc etc. Any reward of a spiritual system comes from the sacrifice we are willing to put into the system.

---


It's like this. Faith can be built by coming to one religion with your problems. If you get anxiety each day for a month, and you take your anxiety concern to 30 different religions and Gods, then you wouldn't have much faith in any one of them. But if you take your anxiety concern to one God, it's like you begin to have faith that even if the problem arises again, your God will be there to help you. Faith can be felt after a long period of trials in which we continually return to the same solution.


I've tried forcing myself to just "trust" and "go with it" with one belief system for years already. And before that, I believed in the God my parents raised me with for even longer.

Besides, I don't really agree with the notion that its necessary for one to endure a decade or more of suffering until God(s) finally starts coming into one's life.

[firstandlast]

Besides, I don't really agree with the notion that its necessary for one to endure a decade or more of suffering until God(s) finally starts coming into one's life.


It is sometimes the fact that it takes that long before you recognize the very nature of God's interaction with you-- Remember, It is acting from higher intentions, and that your idea of your immediate needs vs what you truly need immediately in the greater scheme might not match--

This is much like we both might use the same words, but have different meanings.. much of this is about understanding, comprehension, and communication-- If you are dealing with something so beyond your own self in being, or something so different from you in being; it takes quite a bit of effort to begin even talking, but the better the communication, the more you realize it has been going on all along-- It is never about not responding, but about understanding that which is responding, and that you cannot force it to be something that it is not, just as it cannot truly force you to be something you are not, but that complicates matters when we go into such a topic--

[FallingLeaves]

Its like...there's no foundation to build a meaningful belief system upon, if you haven't had consistent, or else, incredibly powerful experiences.

It has been crossing my mind lately, that maybe that is the point. maybe we don't want to be building a 'meaningful belief system' to begin with.

I know from the social aspect it is very lonely if you don't have one you can share with others... but on the other hand if you don't have one you aren't bound to act in accordance to it either. So there is an upside...

You may also have heard about the 'path' being to become like a little child again. That surfaces now and again. It crosses my mind that as a child I didn't have the 'solidity' of a belief system, that is only something that I got as an adult. So maybe, such tales are indicative of 'dropping' the belief system again and returning to something akin to childhood... if that is true then maybe you are somewhat blessed since you instinctively knew better than to form one to begin with.

as far as experiences, well sometimes you just need to rest :smile:

[firstandlast]

It has been crossing my mind lately, that maybe that is the point. maybe we don't want to be building a 'meaningful belief system' to begin with.

I know from the social aspect it is very lonely if you don't have one you can share with others... but on the other hand if you don't have one you aren't bound to act in accordance to it either. So there is an upside...

You may also have heard about the 'path' being to become like a little child again. That surfaces now and again. It crosses my mind that as a child I didn't have the 'solidity' of a belief system, that is only something that I got as an adult. So maybe, such tales are indicative of 'dropping' the belief system again and returning to something akin to childhood... if that is true then maybe you are somewhat blessed since you instinctively knew better than to form one to begin with.

as far as experiences, well sometimes you just need to rest :smile:

Lol, I will tell you; I found a far different way to be a child; and it is cooooosmic-- I am a bigger baby than when I was born; and age in linear conception has nothing to do with it-- But that I am that young--

Doesn't hurt to find the fountain of youth either, but that one I don't expect people to find so easily--

It is not a matter of your beliefs being in the way, but how you believe-- It's not that a child didn't have beliefs, but that those beliefs were wild and free and had no axioms to cage them; as an adult you learned foundations for all your beliefs and lost sight of the spirit of why you believed them-- So you end up looking for beliefs in a search of a truth, instead of a believing in the truth of the moment and letting those beliefs lead you--

Lol you are trying to lead your beliefs, what child would do that? In my eyes that makes you older than the elders--

However, I work in both extremes simultaneously, I lead myself and let myself lead and my view on who or what I am changes from moment to moment.. sometimes I am this body, sometimes I am the universe... I am who I am, and that's who I need to be; but I am not everyone else's experience, so do not think this is your childhood.. this is my childhood and I am selfish, but you can have your own--

[redstone]

It has been crossing my mind lately, that maybe that is the point. maybe we don't want to be building a 'meaningful belief system' to begin with.

I know from the social aspect it is very lonely if you don't have one you can share with others... but on the other hand if you don't have one you aren't bound to act in accordance to it either. So there is an upside...

You may also have heard about the 'path' being to become like a little child again. That surfaces now and again. It crosses my mind that as a child I didn't have the 'solidity' of a belief system, that is only something that I got as an adult. So maybe, such tales are indicative of 'dropping' the belief system again and returning to something akin to childhood... if that is true then maybe you are somewhat blessed since you instinctively knew better than to form one to begin with

as far as experiences, well sometimes you just need to rest :smile:

I don't think you need a belief system to aready overlay who you are, you need to find the foundations of who and what you are first..see it's limitations and conditions and move from there, if you can see that you will be moving already, breaking the bonds so to speak, then you can deepen your quest, it just requires work from you to break through this.

[firstandlast]

I don't think you need a belief system to aready overlay who you are, you need to find the foundations of who and what you are first..see it's limitations and conditions and move from there, if you can see that you will be moving already, breaking the bonds so to speak, then you can deepen your quest, it just requires work from you to break through this.


Oh but even the stars move freely on their orbital paths!

perhaps the mythological overlays of our mind are suppose to free up those paths between us! rather than inhibit them as they have been so often used upon us as--

People like to blame things though, so I get that mindset as well; its nice to have scapegoat, gives us hope! After all we are ourselves even if we have beliefs, or do you gut yourself like a fish!

[Rayden_Greywolf]

It has been crossing my mind lately, that maybe that is the point. maybe we don't want to be building a 'meaningful belief system' to begin with.

I know from the social aspect it is very lonely if you don't have one you can share with others... but on the other hand if you don't have one you aren't bound to act in accordance to it either. So there is an upside...

You may also have heard about the 'path' being to become like a little child again. That surfaces now and again. It crosses my mind that as a child I didn't have the 'solidity' of a belief system, that is only something that I got as an adult. So maybe, such tales are indicative of 'dropping' the belief system again and returning to something akin to childhood... if that is true then maybe you are somewhat blessed since you instinctively knew better than to form one to begin with.

as far as experiences, well sometimes you just need to rest :smile:

Hmm, well maybe belief system wasn't the right word...

Still, I mean, there has to be SOME kind of foundation, right?

[firstandlast]

Hmm, well maybe belief system wasn't the right word...

Still, I mean, there has to be SOME kind of foundation, right?


I will say this, yes there very much is so; but that it is of such a different approach to the universe, that even my most enlightened friends struggle to understand me-- It is based on spirit alone, it is a not a matter of the shapes we base ourselves on, but a matter of the choice behind those shapes being the things we chose to base ourselves on--

It is the matter of choice and the intentions behind that choice-- A major issue is that we come into this would without context, so our choices are aligned to a whole different "reality" tunnel than the rest of the universes choices are based on-- Creating an origin of a new species, whose freedom is by developing themselves and their ways independent of the choices of the universe; this is a a curse in the sense of the pain we must go through without having any understanding of the truth of our situation, but also a major gift in being able to become who we are without knowing the real conditions of reality, thus truly allowing ourselves to be born and shaped as a species on our own choices--


Disclosure as I talked about before, is in a sense revelation of our context and true axioms, which allow us to align to each other in the greater scheme of things--

[shivatar]

I've tried forcing myself to just "trust" and "go with it" with one belief system for years already. And before that, I believed in the God my parents raised me with for even longer.

Besides, I don't really agree with the notion that its necessary for one to endure a decade or more of suffering until God(s) finally starts coming into one's life.

Don't force it, listen to the parts of you that are having doubt and skepticism, ask why those feelings are there and then solve that problem. Blind faith isn't suggested by Christianity or Buddhism, the belief systems I follow, they suggest questioning things until you have experienced them firsthand.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Don't force it, listen to the parts of you that are having doubt and skepticism, ask why those feelings are there and then solve that problem. Blind faith isn't suggested by Christianity or Buddhism, the belief systems I follow, they suggest questioning things until you have experienced them firsthand.

Now that's some good advice, thank you. Solving some of those problems is partially why I'm here, learning.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

It is sometimes the fact that it takes that long before you recognize the very nature of God's interaction with you-- Remember, It is acting from higher intentions, and that your idea of your immediate needs vs what you truly need immediately in the greater scheme might not match--

This is much like we both might use the same words, but have different meanings.. much of this is about understanding, comprehension, and communication-- If you are dealing with something so beyond your own self in being, or something so different from you in being; it takes quite a bit of effort to begin even talking, but the better the communication, the more you realize it has been going on all along-- It is never about not responding, but about understanding that which is responding, and that you cannot force it to be something that it is not, just as it cannot truly force you to be something you are not, but that complicates matters when we go into such a topic--

Yes, but.....

Why would this universal "love" or "truth" or "spirit", or whatever "it" is, be so difficult to experience in the first place? Why would some be able to understand it so easily through experience, while others are just left behind?

[firstandlast]

Yes, but.....

Why would this universal "love" or "truth" or "spirit", or whatever "it" is, be so difficult to experience in the first place? Why would some be able to understand it so easily through experience, while others are just left behind?

Eh personally you got good advice worth following for yourself here, I would be introspective before you try and understand the situation at hand on a cosmic scale.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Eh personally you got good advice worth following for yourself here, I would be introspective before you try and understand the situation at hand on a cosmic scale.

Well I guess I'm just dense then, because I feel I've been quite introspective over the past few years :/

[firstandlast]

Well I guess I'm just dense then, because I feel I've been quite introspective over the past few years :/


Dude, I wake up tired of self realization; I pass through myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again-- My life consumes itself--

Like do you think anyone who has found truth, love, or spirit has found anything but another story for themselves to ground their heart into?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur

I will put it to you bluntly because you seem to need it; there is a very real danger flying too close to the truth; every sorcerer runs the risk of being consumed by the light--

Now we have a lot people working towards safer passage, we have a lot of guides working full time towards the benefit of all, but that this has been a long process in the making, and its not just a matter of your own work, it takes the entire universe to work together for one being to become illuminated in a safe manner-- Everyone who followed the call to early was rightfully blocked off or lost it to madness until their perception returned to oblivion--

I know you are among a sea of other confused individuals whom are playing with themselves and this messes with your mind so that you play with yourself, but that is the one thing I suggest you learn how to do, is how to play with yourself and enjoy it-- You will find love, you will find peace, you will find spirit, but you won't find anything other than yourself and your balance-- As to a matter of truth, you do not want to go so far; Do you realize how many people find these things and yet remain ignorant of other matters? That should give your heart a hint that if the truth is not everything, than there is no truth to be found within it--

The truth is your life and how you live it--
Frankly what I am saying would not go over well with others, because they will insist they have found something greater.. But no, frankly many people reach a point where they have enough satisfactory conclusions (as well as mystical experiences of "oneness" or whatever else they come across) where they can start being happy with the journey that lasts for EVER--

Dude think about your desires, what do you desire? Think about why you desire those things, and what about those things make you desire them-- Are they the things in themselves? or are they the qualities that the forms allow you to experience?

Like there are sooooo many avenues of self exploration, that you just have not even closely realized your infinite self--

I am lying to you, I am telling you the truth-- WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR!? that is the question, answer what you are looking for.. and than you have found it, if you found it and you still find yourself looking, than you haven't found it; you found a veil in the way of yourself--

Like its a bloody game, its not simple; I know it is wretched; but believe it or not every step you make not to kill yourself, is your choice to be here-- Now what are you going to do with each step?

It is that detrimental; or it can be playful, I can play with you, I can be nice and nurturing spiritual figure.. It all depends on my CHOICE, and my INTENT; HINT HINT HINT--

If you come to any truth other than life itself, you will find yourself dead--


I ranted, I was hoping to come to something that would jolt you into getting past your own view of yourself; but I feel like I have failed.. shall I hit submit.. choices choices... But unlike others, I ain't afraid to look incoherent or crazy; but maybe you just needed some words that weren't just playing nice, sometimes thats not what we need--

GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER--

but like, don't bash yourself for your own feelings; respect your own experience, after all if we don't honor our own experience; do we really honor our own life?

You obviously hear the call.. Now go out and PLAY!

[firstandlast]

But let us not forget that evil lurks in the shadows-- There is a drama amidst our play--

[Jeremy Bong]

Well I guess I'm just dense then, because I feel I've been quite introspective over the past few years :/


Hi Rayden, welcome to the forum.

Firstly, you don't mind I ask you a question? If someone here want to hypnotize you at ill-purpose will you accept that offer.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Hi Rayden, welcome to the forum.

Firstly, you don't mind I ask you a question? If someone here want to hypnotize you at ill-purpose will you accept that offer.

At ill-purpose? I'm not sure what you mean.

[firstandlast]

At ill-purpose? I'm not sure what you mean.


I have him ignored; I can only see what he wrote because you quoted him, he has been following me around and basically calling me out--

Basically do you want to be hypnotized by me?
But I am not really offering-- lol

[firstandlast]

I hopefully fixed that issue with my signature, so maybe he doesn't need to follow me around anymore--

[Jeremy Bong]

At ill-purpose? I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't think you didn't have any knowledge of hypnosis. It isn't that simple and only one way. When someone using it for bad doing then that's can't be good. I suggest you find online "the hypnosis criminal ".

Can you read a person's heart or thought. If your answer is no then you better get far away from it. It's like you staying with poisonous snake it will bite you at anytime they feel the chances has come. That's why I named it "time bomb".

[shivatar]

Yes, but.....

Why would this universal "love" or "truth" or "spirit", or whatever "it" is, be so difficult to experience in the first place? Why would some be able to understand it so easily through experience, while others are just left behind?


The way I understand it is after many years of practice eventually the practice becomes the new normal/natural state of being. Practicing kindness and compassion eventually becomes a way of being instead of a practice but it takes many years of discipline and work before such a prize is had.

I don't believe love or happiness is just realized without work or effort. It might not be manual labor but the process of unraveling our thoughts and correcting our actions is a long and slow process of learning, one that can be sped up with good effort and slowed with wrong effort.

---


Also one thing I've learned is in the spiritual way of life nothing comes freely and nothing is perfect.

To begin to see everything as love or an expression of truth is a difficult path and often before we reach such a high level of spiritual attainment we have been asked to sacrifice dear things to us like relationships or time or effort. Some people walk a lonely path, some spend years in meditation, a common theme is there is a sacrifice before the gift and the gift is meant to help ease the suffering caused by the sacrifice.

Perhaps there is no gift at all, but that's simply how the brain works, if we push it into hell enough eventually it will see heaven everywhere.
I think that's the case and most spiritual seekers eventually jump off the train when they have realized that to seek a greater heaven means to go through a deeper hell, finding enough happiness is better than continously cycling through heaven and hells. Often that "good enough" heaven is what people talk about when they see the love and beauty in everything, but it's not because things look fundamentally different or we feel floating on air like we have a high school crush who just talked to us, it's usually just a mellow "oh that's nice" and it seems so nice because it's compared to the hell. After going through enough hell everything about life is beautiful, just because there is no pain.

it's a strange conundrum, things that were once not beautiful suddenly are beautiful because the pain we once felt is not there.

so who knows which happens first, in my experience it's the hell that comes first, then everything is beautiful, but not because it's changed in any way but because we have changed. It's like we have won our share of heaven as a consequence of going through hell, but even that is not given, if we go through hell we need to turn the smile upside down and make sure something heavenly comes out of it. even if it's just a newfound appreciation for how good the simple things are like being free from pain

[Rayden_Greywolf]

The way I understand it is after many years of practice eventually the practice becomes the new normal/natural state of being. Practicing kindness and compassion eventually becomes a way of being instead of a practice but it takes many years of discipline and work before such a prize is had.

I don't believe love or happiness is just realized without work or effort. It might not be manual labor but the process of unraveling our thoughts and correcting our actions is a long and slow process of learning, one that can be sped up with good effort and slowed with wrong effort.


Fair enough. Rationally, I know I can't expect answers and understanding to be revealed simply because I demand them. Its just...hard to accept this kind of state, considering I've been in it for years. Like, what am I supposed to do?

[shivatar]

Fair enough. Rationally, I know I can't expect answers and understanding to be revealed simply because I demand them. Its just...hard to accept this kind of state, considering I've been in it for years. Like, what am I supposed to do?

What are you doing now?
What do you think you should be doing?

Those are two questions that can help reveal this situation you're in.

--

Also I think having a strong desire for answers is a good sign that they will come, the brain has a way of finding answers. Not always the best or perfect answers but even bad answers can be a growing experience if we put effort into it and find the positive

--


Also learning how to listen to your inner self and gain answers from it is a good skill to learn. Meditation is good for this, first for slowing thoughts and separating them, then by creating space between thought/feeling and reaction so that we can be aware of what is then act on what we want.

As we grow in our meditative skill we can see deeper beneath our thoughts into our intentions, sometimes we see a memory that is old and painfully creating problems like a wrench in a gear, if we are even further skilled in meditation we can pull that wrench out. Having such mastery over the mind is one goal of meditation.

[guthrio]

Hi there. So, yet another existential crisis thread here....

There are lots of reasons behind my current state of depression, but the one I'm trying to figure out here is my lack of faith in even the most basic concepts of spirituality, like love and the soul.

My question is: For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?

Hi Rayden_Greywolf,

...."For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?..."

Please bear with the length of this explanation to your excellent question.

The answer may surprise you.

Faith does NOT matter if you are satisfied with merely relying upon your beliefs (or worse, someone else's beliefs), whether they're true or NOT. If you "believe" nothing will happen to you just because someone told you that THEY believe touching a live electrical wire is OK.....then the shocking Truth will quickly show you that you were painfully misinformed. Won't it ??

Belief is what we choose to tell OURSELVES is true about Reality until we experience what IS true regardless what we believe.

And to your point, It doesn't EVEN matter whether you believe faith matters or not. Why ?

Because, unlike beliefs, the foundation upon which Faith is built is Truth, which CANNOT change or BE changed. If you survive the "shock" of relying on your beliefs INSTEAD of upon TRUTH, you will understand that YOUR FAITH in the immutable principle of electricity is BASED ON TRUTH.

Similarly.....

Consider that 2+2=4. Why? Think about it.

2+2=4, whether you sum the equation correctly or not !!

Don't believe me? Try MAKING 2+2=5. It doesn't work does it? We cannot even MAKE 2+2=4, either. WHY ??

Because neither Truth nor Perfection can change or BE changed ! It, too, is immutably True, just like electricity. Whether summed by believer, infidel, heretic, or boor, the beauty that 2+2=4, perfectly, AND irrefutably demonstrates TRUTH for itself, doesn't it?

One's understanding CANNOT BE BASED on anything as malleable as one's belief OR dis-belief, in religion, or philosophy, or theories.....because our beliefs are ALWAYS changing....because WE change them. Faith can ONLY be founded on immutable Truth, NOT upon ever-changing beliefs you tell yourself are true. Do you see ??

We are absolutely free to choose to believe that 2+2=5 for as long as we want. We may (or may not) recognize that we have MADE A MISTAKE, in perception or conduct, certainly. Regardless, the consequences of INCORRECTLY applying the PERFECT principles governing this mathematics equation are inescapable....but correctable. It is only when the correct perception IS CORRECTLY APPLIED, that the resultant "answer" enables us to declare the truth of that experience to ourselves. The consequences of CORRECTLY applying the principles of mathematics (or those governing our own Being) are ALSO inescapable, to our eternal good.

As Baird Spalding indicates in the 1st reference, "Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things."

THIS is the operative principle behind "Ye shall reap what you sow".....for good or ill.

As a matter of Truth, the ONLY way you'd know if you have made a mistake in perception or operation is BECAUSE the principles of Life operate perfectly, without the slightest deviation, variation, or attenuation at ANY time or in ANY place for ANYBODY! Otherwise, you would not know what electricity perfectly does FOR you when you utilize it correctly. Or you wouldn't know what electricity perfectly does TO you when operated incorrectly, either.

If you consider this carefully, what is referred to as, goodness including love, patience, kindness, self-control, faithfulness and gentleness", is analogous to what the immutable principle of electricity does FOR you when operated consistent with its purpose. Conversely, what is referred to as "The acts of our brokenness, hatred, discord, sexual immorality, dissensions, greed, laziness, hatred, jealousy, fits of rage, drunkenness, envy, selfish ambition and the like....." are analogous to what the immutable principle of electricity does TO you when it is operated incorrectly, and is....

.....the perfect, unavoidable consequence of having chosen to perceive and act AS IF the immutable Principles by which we were created could be used inconsistently with their perfect, original purpose.

This is about G I G O.....

Garbage in, garbage out....perfectly !!

Perfect input, perfect output....perfectly !!

NOT BECAUSE there is inherent EVIL in US!

NOT BECAUSE there is inherent EVIL in God's Creation.

NOT BECAUSE we are flawed or "born in sin and full of sin".

It is because the infinite SYSTEM of which we are an inseparable part operates flawlessly and impartially....created by the same Source Who created perfect principles of Life, such as mathematics which operate immutably to create ONLY 4 as the answer to 2+2.

The gift in BEING FREE to make mistakes (in other words, to be wrong) is precisely so that you can LEARN HOW TO CORRECT THEM....not in being penalized (hell) for making mistakes. This is how we learn to manifest 4 by adding 2 plus 2, and by recognizing that 4 is the correct solution in EVERY instance.

When you realize that you have made a mistake in a mathematical operation, you correct the mistake, right?

We are no more obligated to beat ourselves up for making mistakes than we are required to keep making the same mistake over and over again. After the mistake is corrected and the answer is revealed, we must acknowledge to ourselves that this is so and then, go on to the next problem in our perception that needs correction.

Moreover, we are no more required to keep making the same mistake (sin) over and over again than we are obligated to REMAIN unaware of the correct answer (the Truth about ourselves) for ever and ever !!

Please understand that I am only using these mathematical and electrical examples as metaphors for THAT which is not only real, but is also true, and which ALSO cannot change.

We can choose to believe that 2+2=5 for eternity until we have acquired FOR OURSELVES the necessary knowledge of the immutable principle that correctly sums the answer. But understand: using the knowledge INCORRECTLY will not change the Truth one whit !! Why ? I think you NOW know the reason why, don't you ?

Neither Truth nor Perfection can change or BE changed ! ONLY our perception and APPLICATION of it can change or be changed.

Again, this is about G I G O.....not about God !!

Ignorance of immutable Truth acts PRECISELY like ignorance of the perfect operation of a mathematical equation ALWAYS and INVARIABLY produces incorrect results. The solution can only be experienced when we recognize AND apply the Truth to ourselves or to the equation.

And the CORRECT APPLICATION of the Truth results in a LIFE LIVED ABUNDANTLY...PRECISELY like the correct application of the perfect operation of a mathematical equation ALWAYS and INVARIABLY produces CORRECT results. The solution can only be experienced when we recognize AND apply the Truth to ourselves (just as in an equation).

Do you see?

As author Baird Spalding also says in the 1st reference, ”Becoming aware of yourself as a spiritual being, offspring of an infinite spiritual system and one with all the powers and capacities within that system, is the very essence of attainment. To grow from the present state of awareness of himself as a material being and into the consciousness that he is a spiritual being contains the full secret of man's attainment.' Man's nature cannot be reversed for he always remains a spiritual being. He can only reverse his notion of himself. Instead of doing this, he should reverse his mistaken idea that he is a material being and retain the truth that he is a spiritual being created in the image and likeness of God."

THAT'S HOW you personally experience the immutable Truth of YOURSELF..... by direct experience OF IT. Then YOU KNOW the Truth, not merely believe "in" the Truth or have "faith" in the Truth, or have to be told "about" the Truth second-handedly.

Is it not then obvious that neither you nor anyone else needs to accept someone else's beliefs to KNOW what is true.....because ANYONE can prove Truth to themselves literally and undeniably ?? I'd say that's a pretty good way to learn about the wonder of our Selves and especially about the Giver of such a gift as the capability to make mistakes. Through such a gift, you realize how serious our Creator is to have us freely discover the Absolute Truth about ourselves, FOR ourselves....don't you ?

Belief is what we choose to tell OURSELVES is true about Reality until we experience what IS true regardless what we believe. Beliefs can be predicated upon false perceptions (lies) propped up to masquerade as Truth. The truth about the "reach" of our very understanding of REALITY is that each and every advancement has come about after we discovered what has always been true waiting for us to discover it. Once you understand that the word "normality" is simply a way of saying "subjective assumptions about what we "believe" is "normal", then it becomes obvious that transcending "limitations" and exceeding "grasp" is really an exercise in perceiving reality in its true dimensions and applying the understanding therefrom accordingly. For instance: do the Heavens still revolve around the Earth? Not after Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo. Are time and space separate from one another? Not after Einstein. Did you get your vaccines this year? Thanks to Pasteur you did. Is the Earth still flat? Ask Ericson, Columbus or Magellan for the answer. Do you have to study your science homework or read the scriptures of whatever faith you profess in the dark? Not after a little help from Gutenburg and Edison. You can readily see the impact of individuals with new ideas helping other individuals change THEIR ideas about these things, which eventually results in the civilization changing, right? It is only AFTER we've changed our own erroneous beliefs about normality that we can objectively see that what becames the "new" normal.....has ALWAYS BEEN THE TRUE NORMAL waiting for us to discover it all the while !!

As excerpted from page 15 of Genevieve Behrend's Book, Your Invisible Power (see 2nd reference):

"Endeavor to bear in mind that your mental picture is Universal Mind specifically exercising its inherent powers of initiative and selection. God, or Universal Mind, made man for the special purpose of differentiating Himself through him. Everything there is, came into existence in this same way, by this self-same law of self-differentiation, and for the same purpose. First came the idea, the mental picture, or the prototype of the thing, which is the thing itself in its incipiency. The Great Architect of the Universe contemplated Himself as manifesting through his polar opposite—matter—and the idea expanded and projected itself until we have not only a world, but many worlds."

As indicated above, "God, or Universal Mind, made man for the special purpose of differentiating Himself through him." Ms. Behrend goes on to say on page 47 of this same reference ".....your mind is the mirror in which the Infinite Power and Intelligence of the Universe sees itself reproduced...."

Your mind, repeat, YOUR mind, IS the mind of the Infinite Power and Intelligence of the Universe....expressing ITSELF through YOUR senses, and AS you, and AS every “thing” you can apprehend with them…and AS every “thing” beyond your ability to apprehend with them.

Need I even mention the ramifications of the word "INFINITE" in the context of MIRRORING such power and intelligence WITHIN one's OWN mind, let alone what it means to become aware that you are ALREADY one with all the powers and capacities within such a system ??? Our subjective beliefs about what is "normal" must then be seen to be SELF-IMPOSED, and if self-imposed...THEY MUST BE SELF-REMOVED !!

Doubt ALL you want.....until you discover the Truth you seek for yourself.....that's just been WAITING for you !

Then you will no longer need to substitute the Truth you've found with the doubt (false perceptions) you temporarily put in its place.

....and you will have the answers that you KNOW are true !

The beginning of philosophy, or science, or religion is essentially....

....an ITCH that MUST be scratched.....and which can only be satisfied when YOU scratch it....YOUR WAY !!

You seek the impetus within Mankind which has driven us to create philosophies (or religions or sciences) at all.....the insatiable desire to KNOW (not merely to postulate, theorize, "believe", or have faith in..)

....the Truth of Ourselves.

Gain the KNOW-ledge for yourself....and the "point" proves or disproves itself irrefutably within YOUR OWN experience....

THAT IS HOW YOU SCRATCH THE ITCH.....

....that caused you to seek the answer to your question....in the first place !!

So SCRA-A-A-A-A-A-ATCH !!!....to your Soul's content....

Paradigm change ALWAYS begins with, but most importantly, WITHIN, individuals. It is why changing your ideas can change your life....which IS the very embodiment of "paradigm change".

You do NOT need to rely on belief to have faith in Spirituality. Rely on your own experience of Truth and Perfection. Whether we are scientists, theologians, philosophers, or laypersons, we see "objective" Reality THROUGH our "subjective" ideas. Discovering that ALL the principles of Life operate perfectly, without variation, deviation, attenuation, OR exception for anyone, at anytime, anywhere is about as TRUTHFUL an experience about Reality as you can have, isn't it?

The entirety of this post is about discovering the Truth of yourself, by yourself, and FOR yourself. That’s why all the calls by others to “prove the existence of God to me or where’s your proof of God’s existence” are irrelevant. It is NOT about proving ANYTHING to anyone else because only WE, individually, have the responsibility to prove Truth in our OWN lives, NOT for, or TO anybody else.

We can choose to believe that touching live electrical wires is OK or that 2+2=5 for eternity until we have acquired FOR OURSELVES the necessary knowledge of the immutable principle that correctly sums the answer. But understand: even AFTER we have acquired the correct knowledge, using it INCORRECTLY will not change the correct answer (Truth !) one whit !

Again, neither Truth nor Perfection can change or BE changed !

THAT'S why it does not matter what we believe.

....which should not be surprising, at all...

Whether you believe what I've said here...or not....that's all well and good. However, if you PROVE TO YOURSELF THE TRUTH YOU NEED TO ANSWER THIS OR ANY OTHER QUESTION.....

......Then you'll understand what the REAL difference between FAITH and belief is.....

....And THAT very difference is the shocking point....that matters.

Rayden_Greywolf, this is what I have personally learned that I hope directly answers your excellent question...Faith in spirituality without experience?

...but it is only your direct experience of Truth and Perfection that can satisfactorily scratch the itch!

Finally, I hope this, and the sources below, helps you figure out how to do this. Just wait 'till you hit that "G"od spot within you! :smile:

Sorry this is so long :smile:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1377344&postcount=1 Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East (see Vol 4 page 28, last sentence in para 6)

Reference: http://www.lightisreal.com/YourInvisiblePower.pdf

[FallingLeaves]

Hmm, well maybe belief system wasn't the right word...

Still, I mean, there has to be SOME kind of foundation, right?

Some have questioned though, whether learning what the foundation is and analyzing it doesn't take you away from just sitting on it.

anyway one truth noone seems capable of following is 'let your 'no' be your 'no''.

mostly we either want to talk each other into things, or alternately be talked into things.

[FallingLeaves]

Lol you are trying to lead your beliefs, what child would do that? In my eyes that makes you older than the elders--



yay I'm older than the elders! Exactly the position I was jockying for! But I know from experience that if I had CALLED myself that you would be calling me a man-child about now. Because it is fun to throw life in people's faces.

So what you say seems tied to what I say, and makes little difference in the long run... now if you could DO something instead of just SAYING something, and if that something weren't just a mindless reaction to whatever it is I just said or did, well that would be SOMETHING!

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Some have questioned though, whether learning what the foundation is and analyzing it doesn't take you away from just sitting on it.

anyway one truth noone seems capable of following is 'let your 'no' be your 'no''.

mostly we either want to talk each other into things, or alternately be talked into things.


So.... Accept my doubts?

[redstone]

Theres definately enough info in Shivatars and Guthrios posts to address what you need to know for now Rayden.

as for accepting doubts...your right to doubt what you see and hear, you just need to work it out.

[firstandlast]

yay I'm older than the elders! Exactly the position I was jockying for! But I know from experience that if I had CALLED myself that you would be calling me a man-child about now. Because it is fun to throw life in people's faces.

So what you say seems tied to what I say, and makes little difference in the long run... now if you could DO something instead of just SAYING something, and if that something weren't just a mindless reaction to whatever it is I just said or did, well that would be SOMETHING!

Goes against the great covenant we all agreed to-- =)

I am just saying stuff-- I like to spin around in circles, those are my favorite kind of chairs, use to spin around till I threw up-- weeeeeeeeee!



*contemplates the difference between saying and doing, as he is no form but the choice of the forms he experience* WOOOOOOOOOOOOSH ANOTHER TURN!

Suuuuuuper man!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFIYGkROII

[Greenslade]

I don't know, I just feel kind of.... Helpless. The more I attempt to research my spiritual problems, the more doubt I accumulate. How can I live my life with any purpose or meaning if all I have to go on is that maybe some day I'll "get it"?

I understand this is all coming from a negative place. I don't mean to sound whiny or angsty. It's just very difficult to accept that everything will be okay and I'll figure things out eventually when that's what I've been telling myself for years.What is this 'it' that you're trying to get? A Spirituality with all of its ideologies, theologies and contradictions that separates itself from real Life then uses theories to try and understand it? If you want to get Spirituality get human nature - God made man, man made belief systems.

A very wise man gave me something that changed everything for me at a time when I was a long way from getting 'it'. "Take what resonates as your own truth, leave the rest behind because it is not yours." Forget trying to get 'it' but go out there and make 'it', Spirituality isn't in the books, there's a whole Universe and everything in it that's Spiritual, not just what has a "This is Spiritual" sticker on the side.

If you want a Spiritual answer, drop what doesn't serve you because your current mindset will most likely lead you into a downward spiral, and it sounds like it already has. Find what does resonate with you, find what does serve you. Ever thought that you're just not supposed to get 'it'? Ever thought that your mind just isn't wired for it? It doesn't make you stupid it simply means a bunch of contradictory theories isn't for you.

If you want a truly Spiritual movie to take inspiration from, watch the Wizard of Oz. Seriously. Just right now you're following the Yellow Brick Road and there are flying monkeys all around you. Spirituality (or at least what often passes as Spirituality) is the Wizard of Oz, the real wisdom is with the good fairy because she was wise enough to let Dorothy have her experiences then be there at the end to lead her to the realisations. "I don't have to go any further than my own back yard."

Everything is already OK because the good thing about banging your head against a brick wall is that it feels great when you stop. If you want the answers, look in the mirror. You are not the question looking for the answer, you are the answer looking for the question and this is a Journey to Self. Spirituality isn't the Self, it's the context in which you experience.

Here's another little secret for you. Spirit doesn't do belief systems.

[Patrycia-Rose]

My question is: For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?

I can only speak from my own experience. The basis for spirituality is to gain evidence and proof that life continues after we pass over. I don’t know what your belief is on that front. To gain that knowledge, you need to seek that personal evidence. To do this, I would suggest you find in your area a professional medium. Go by word of mouth as a good medium will never need to advertise. You could also go to your local spiritualist church and see the evidence that mediums there give to the audience. One of things I like is to see is other people get messages from their loved ones and the hope and peace it brings. This kind of evidence can take a while to gain. I’ve seen some sceptical friends have their whole belief change from just one sitting from a good medium; others it’s taken several sittings from different mediums. But ultimately, they will be given a piece of evidence that is so personal to them, the truth that life continues after we pass, cannot be denied. Do you have anyone special to you that has passed over and could help you on this path? Before you go to see a medium, ask them to come through.

I’ve been seeing mediums on and off for years and always have loved ones who come through for me. So now, I have no need for faith or belief. It is an unshakable knowledge. And that is the platform for other spiritual experiences.

[Hemera]

Even experience doesn't guarantee unshakable faith, as I personally have found. The mind is brilliant at planting a seed of doubt, whether founded or unfounded. I'm still relatively young, but much of my life so far has been about questioning seemingly rock solid belief systems that I'd previously held. I wonder if it's part of the path. Not that it helps much if so.

I like Patricia's post about mediums. That can really help but there are probably a lot of charlatans out there so make sure you find a genuine one. I don't think you will ever find the one thing that gives you faith, rather it's a process over time. But I guess it's different for everyone. I hope you find what you need.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

What is this 'it' that you're trying to get? A Spirituality with all of its ideologies, theologies and contradictions that separates itself from real Life then uses theories to try and understand it? If you want to get Spirituality get human nature - God made man, man made belief systems.

A very wise man gave me something that changed everything for me at a time when I was a long way from getting 'it'. "Take what resonates as your own truth, leave the rest behind because it is not yours." Forget trying to get 'it' but go out there and make 'it', Spirituality isn't in the books, there's a whole Universe and everything in it that's Spiritual, not just what has a "This is Spiritual" sticker on the side.

If you want a Spiritual answer, drop what doesn't serve you because your current mindset will most likely lead you into a downward spiral, and it sounds like it already has. Find what does resonate with you, find what does serve you. Ever thought that you're just not supposed to get 'it'? Ever thought that your mind just isn't wired for it? It doesn't make you stupid it simply means a bunch of contradictory theories isn't for you.

If you want a truly Spiritual movie to take inspiration from, watch the Wizard of Oz. Seriously. Just right now you're following the Yellow Brick Road and there are flying monkeys all around you. Spirituality (or at least what often passes as Spirituality) is the Wizard of Oz, the real wisdom is with the good fairy because she was wise enough to let Dorothy have her experiences then be there at the end to lead her to the realisations. "I don't have to go any further than my own back yard."

Everything is already OK because the good thing about banging your head against a brick wall is that it feels great when you stop. If you want the answers, look in the mirror. You are not the question looking for the answer, you are the answer looking for the question and this is a Journey to Self. Spirituality isn't the Self, it's the context in which you experience.

Here's another little secret for you. Spirit doesn't do belief systems.


It feels like....I don't know any truths, though. People tell me to make my own meaning, but I don't really understand.

[redstone]

It feels like....I don't know any truths, though. People tell me to make my own meaning, but I don't really understand.

well you may as well start with the four noble truths then...a good as place to start.

[shivatar]

I don't think you didn't have any knowledge of hypnosis. It isn't that simple and only one way. When someone using it for bad doing then that's can't be good. I suggest you find online "the hypnosis criminal ".

Can you read a person's heart or thought. If your answer is no then you better get far away from it. It's like you staying with poisonous snake it will bite you at anytime they feel the chances has come. That's why I named it "time bomb".

Don't be such a drama king.

[naturesflow]

Faith in spirituality without experience= a reason to live

[naturesflow]

Don't be such a drama king.

Are you projecting your ideas of drama king onto Jeremy. Projection is probably not the right word to use, but it will do to relate all this to you for reason. When you say don't, my feelers go up which is about me, when you label people my feelers go up to, that is about me too.

I don't see him as you do, but that may be because I honour the drama and the king in myself with understanding of the whole process regardless of what I think that process is about. I understand and so I don't have to label it as being something of my creation that I have understanding for in me that I know he knows is about him.

[Jeremy Bong]

Don't be such a drama king.

This is a good response, I like someone like you do. I ask you , are you asking/giving remark for fair judgement or by emotion? I told others with precautions of harm and bad rewards or side effects. And I don't see you're pointing at me with any help for this matter. Or just something like cat-call.

But I like you to call me "king" if I'm honour to. They're many types of king, for example, king of authority of self content, enjoy, rule over weaknesses, unable.....and my "King" is to help others if I have expressed or defined it rightly. Anyway thanks to call me King, my good royal citizens.

[shivatar]

Are you projecting your ideas of drama king onto Jeremy. Projection is probably not the right word to use, but it will do to relate all this to you for reason. When you say don't, my feelers go up which is about me, when you label people my feelers go up to, that is about me too.

I don't see him as you do, but that may be because I honour the drama and the king in myself with understanding of the whole process regardless of what I think that process is about. I understand and so I don't have to label it as being something of my creation that I have understanding for in me that I know he knows is about him.


I hear a lot of me and I in your statement.

I'm glad you have different views but mine allow me to influence the behaviors of others when I think it's not in the best interest of all parties, I don't believe in letting everything go without intervention.

[shivatar]

This is a good response, I like someone like you do. I ask you , are you asking/giving remark for fair judgement or by emotion? I told others with precautions of harm and bad rewards or side effects. And I don't see you're pointing at me with any help for this matter. Or just something like cat-call.

But I like you to call me "king" if I'm honour to. They're many types of king, for example, king of authority of self content, enjoy, rule over weaknesses, unable.....and my "King" is to help others if I have expressed or defined it rightly. Anyway thanks to call me King, my good royal citizens.

I'm giving you a little bit of my guidance. I don't see any harm in what FirstandLast says where you do see harm so I spoke.

Did you tell them of the good effects too? Just making light of the negatives without stating the goods is biased persuasion, you're trying to get someone else to follow your advice by forming your words into sweet words. Not everyone is hungry for something sweet though! lol

---

If your kingdom is the well being of others then I bow to your royalty and nobility. If your selfishness interferes with your ability to help others then you'll be hearing from me very soon afterwards!

[naturesflow]

I hear a lot of me and I in your statement.

I'm glad you have different views but mine allow me to influence the behaviors of others when I think it's not in the best interest of all parties, I don't believe in letting everything go without intervention.


I suppose you would your the one listening and hearing.

And naturally I don't let my awareness go without intervention also.

So we are both on the same page at least, which works when both are.

I guess if you are "fair game" anything is possible in the return you dish out.

[naturesflow]

This is a good response, I like someone like you do. I ask you , are you asking/giving remark for fair judgement or by emotion? I told others with precautions of harm and bad rewards or side effects. And I don't see you're pointing at me with any help for this matter. Or just something like cat-call.

But I like you to call me "king" if I'm honour to. They're many types of king, for example, king of authority of self content, enjoy, rule over weaknesses, unable.....and my "King" is to help others if I have expressed or defined it rightly. Anyway thanks to call me King, my good royal citizens.

Funny, you and I see the King symbol similar in that it could well be a compliment depending on where your looking at it ..:D

In this view no offense need be taken. Even as the intention of the other may have been a cat call as you put it, I didn't hear that sound.

[shivatar]

Funny, you and I see the King symbol similar in that it could well be a compliment depending on where your looking at it ..:D

In this view no offense need be taken. Even as the intention of the other may have been a cat call as you put it, I didn't hear that sound.

Offense ought to be taken, unless a person wants to live in an eternal fairy tale land of their imagination where all intruders are met with passive aggressiveness.

Learning how to re-arrange a perspective is a beginning technique for a mind in pain, it becomes a hindrance when a person begins to use it to barricade their self off from parts of the world instead of striving to grow in harmony with all of it. What I meant by your I and Me statement is it's indicative of someone who is barricading their self off from the world and is becoming the center of their own world.

[Jeremy Bong]

I'm giving you a little bit of my guidance. I don't see any harm in what FirstandLast says where you do see harm so I spoke.

Did you tell them of the good effects too? Just making light of the negatives without stating the goods is biased persuasion, you're trying to get someone else to follow your advice by forming your words into sweet words. Not everyone is hungry for something sweet though! lol

---

If your kingdom is the well being of others then I bow to your royalty and nobility. If your selfishness interferes with your ability to help others then you'll be hearing from me very soon afterwards!

If you ever following closely to him for months then you will know what he means by what he trying to say. I give you some hints that I wrote in my own thread, I paste it here:
*************
Tricks I'm facing (4).

The hypnosis influenced or founder demons.

Yesterday we've discussion on hypnosis and a member was highly hypnotized. This morning I wrote the above response to her. Then I found out something secret which is enough to shock me and couldn't unbelievably of their existence/connection/influenced the whole process of hypnosis.

Actually behind the whole process I wonder : is there any spirit/god/demon who's supporting this process of hypnosis? And this morning I revealed the answer to the very bottom of it, that's there's a group of demons of ugly women (formerly surrendered to me in the universe) and today another group of ugly old male demons(wearing very few or almost naked and bare headed) who tried to control me.

But their efforts were futile and eliminated by me. Then I have found their base in one of the star in a Gallery then I have kept them in "prison" there and they are not be able to escape to elsewhere.

And my Cupid son told me on earth there is the same type of demons group (after I trapped them in the universe) blaming me that I'm very bad to them. After my Cupid son informed me about them, they intended to escape but there's no way to pass through my spiritual fishing net surrounding the atmosphere in the sky. And they knew they're no matching of my dharma and only can shift from place to place to avoid be noticed by my Cupid son.

I would like to ask the public opinion for what should I do for them? Either to eliminate/forgive/punish them? I don't want to be "not fair" as other will complain to me or by them later.

******-*****

Or you read his long thread he just posted and honour his admiration of negative.........

[shivatar]

If you are resisting the influence of others then attacks will appear where they are not.

Let go is my advice.


---
"I would like to ask the public opinion for what should I do for them? Either to eliminate/forgive/punish them? I don't want to be "not fair" as other will complain to me or by them later."


Let go.

[naturesflow]

Offense ought to be taken, unless a person wants to live in an eternal fairy tale land of their imagination where all intruders are met with passive aggressiveness.

Learning how to re-arrange a perspective is a beginning technique for a mind in pain, it becomes a hindrance when a person begins to use it to barricade their self off from parts of the world instead of striving to grow in harmony with all of it. What I meant by your I and Me statement is it's indicative of someone who is barricading their self off from the world and is becoming the center of their own world.


AS you see it will become for you.
So you give yourself excuses to be that person in this response.
The mind in my view when it attaches to ideas about the whys and hows and all that stuff you show, tends to centre itself in its own mind, so naturally we see the mind taking over open ness that would if it knew itself as the drama king would understand its own association in feeling and reason as to why it came from the cat call of itself.

In reflection you call was just to name the behaviour, but your behaviour in response was showing yours.

Each to their own.

In reflection of you as myself, I know myself in you, been there in that space.

Much like the King term, one can look at themselves in the barricading view and see that perhaps their mind has once again decided that this is the case for itself. As for I am me statements, I often model that to those who choose to decide for others, I call that moving along the open spectrum of awareness in knowing and being all that.

So what flows from my centre of my world could well be an all encompassing centre that is inclusive and what flows from your centre of your world could well be what your mind thinks of itself and others. The centre aware might have come to know this without mind involved more aware of what the mind involved can be like. :)

[shivatar]

AS you see it will become for you.
So you give yourself excuses to be that person in this response.
The mind in my view when it doesn't attach to ideas about the whys and hows and all that stuff you show, tends to centre itself in its own mind, so naturally we see the mind taking over open ness that would if it knew itself as the drama king would understand its own association in feeling and reason as to why it came from the cat call of itself.

In reflection you call was just to name the behaviour, but your behaviour in response was showing yours.

Each to their own.

Call it an excuse if you want.

[Jeremy Bong]

Offense ought to be taken, unless a person wants to live in an eternal fairy tale land of their imagination where all intruders are met with passive aggressiveness.

Learning how to re-arrange a perspective is a beginning technique for a mind in pain, it becomes a hindrance when a person begins to use it to barricade their self off from parts of the world instead of striving to grow in harmony with all of it. What I meant by your I and Me statement is it's indicative of someone who is barricading their self off from the world and is becoming the center of their own world.

I have no intention to convince you what's the universal reality for you're not yet can perceive that way. You may said that's fairly tales and my proofs have been given to a lot of people but not to you so far. And I better more appropriate for you to follow my thread for a longer time without prejudice than you can open your eyes and your mind to admitted all facts I said upon this world.

If you would challenge me by words and argument or discussion then you're welcome ----my honorable guest or citizen.

You can ask for my proof but it depends on my mood and will. Or if you're sure that you need s a proof then I may give you but don't blame me to do thing unconsidered enough.

Or you need "a lift up to hundreds of ft from the ground" but that's a bit dangerous........ I only do things of constructive but not destruction.....

[naturesflow]

Call it an excuse if you want.

Calling others behaviour is becoming. You becoming.

[naturesflow]

The darkness demon battle/inner light you wished for others to experience in the meditation thread relates to all this. Comforting light in the becoming off all that it envisions within itself, learns to comfort the war and demons outside of itself that express as itself in various ways becoming more true as the light... So the King of drama no longer is noticed, the excuses it sees all tie into itself no longer are noticed..

I don't call behaviour but I will offer insight where I can and feel it is more comforting to the ones who have to deal with others not dealing who "think" they know.

Living as your greater self is being aware you are your meditation and the totally of all life you see and notice as "you".. Becoming the lived experience of your inner world. Practicing and showing yourself as you are right now in your inner world.

[Jeremy Bong]

Funny, you and I see the King symbol similar in that it could well be a compliment depending on where your looking at it ..:D

In this view no offense need be taken. Even as the intention of the other may have been a cat call as you put it, I didn't hear that sound.

He's honour to be as cat call. And I'm drama King so that I may have some pet to feed with cat food. And when he is mature with his mentality then the king will call upon him as minster of the negative to guard someone who's liking of it.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Well this thread has taken a strange turn....

[naturesflow]

Well this thread has taken a strange turn....

Life turns in many ways. Your noticing life movements, something I think I mentioned somewhere that one can gain faith in, in the flow of life and you in it regardless of what is moving. I am glad you said this, because it offers something with regards to faith without experience so thanks for showing me you in this.

[naturesflow]

I noticed you mentioned you have depression or did?

I know in mine it was mostly my own resistance to what is that caused me to spiral down and lose faith. Once I started flowing with life and what was in me I found my faith ignited and I actually began a deeper journey of acceptance of life in ways I wasn't accepting.

I am not saying in your comment you mean that your not. More reflected and wanted to offer you this awareness if it helps in any way.

Faith in the spiral or void is about the lack of motivation to push through and lift oneself up and out, because the faith to do so and face what is "up there" head on is scary..We on some level know the old feelings and what they represent from past experience, so it is easier to succumb to the downward spiral and stay close to our centre that way. That is my story by the way. The faith was taking risk and pushing through. "I am willing to face the unknown of what is coming without fully knowing, but with some knowing and have faith anyway" ...

[Jeremy Bong]

If you are resisting the influence of others then attacks will appear where they are not.

Let go is my advice.


---
"I would like to ask the public opinion for what should I do for them? Either to eliminate/forgive/punish them? I don't want to be "not fair" as other will complain to me or by them later."


Let go.

What you mean by let go? Is it to let go of the illusion or reality? That's why I said you're far from the real world. You're at a small corner of somewhere. And to be on the edge of life or death and you said "let go". I think you're in a sweet dream. Dreaming of goodness and sweetness..... But the fact don't agree with your thinking.

If I eliminate them the world will enjoy its peace but if I let it go then turmoil or mess or danger will wait for you afterwards or in the future. Unless they agreed to be good and never cause troubles again but can you really trust the demons? Or can the demons be trusted?

[vespa68]

Hi there. So, yet another existential crisis thread here....

There are lots of reasons behind my current state of depression, but the one I'm trying to figure out here is my lack of faith in even the most basic concepts of spirituality, like love and the soul.

My question is: For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?

In fact you are questioning your faith and who you are so you will get answers. You are looking for a deeper trust in yourself and the universe and you will get it but as long as you are facing this deeper knowing you do feel disconnected. In other words you need to feel disconnected in order to connect to who you are because you are questioning it. Some people never face any of this and may just trust blindly. Not everyone is deep.

[naturesflow]

Faith

When you walk to the edge of all the light you have
and take that first step into the darkness of the unknown,
you must believe that one of two things will happen:

There will be something solid for you to stand upon,
or, you will be taught how to fly...

~ Patrick Overton

Art -Natalia Rak


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/angelicrealm/15740809_1845841435661362_1937149399106138816_n.jp g (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/angelicrealm/media/15740809_1845841435661362_1937149399106138816_n.jp g.html)

[Rayden_Greywolf]

Faith

When you walk to the edge of all the light you have
and take that first step into the darkness of the unknown,
you must believe that one of two things will happen:

There will be something solid for you to stand upon,
or, you will be taught how to fly...

~ Patrick Overton


Well yes, that's faith. Something I don't have right now.

[Rayden_Greywolf]

In fact you are questioning your faith and who you are so you will get answers. You are looking for a deeper trust in yourself and the universe and you will get it but as long as you are facing this deeper knowing you do feel disconnected. In other words you need to feel disconnected in order to connect to who you are because you are questioning it. Some people never face any of this and may just trust blindly. Not everyone is deep.


That's...actually rather reassuring, thank you.

[vespa68]

That's...actually rather reassuring, thank you.

You are welcome. In have been through a whole lot of stuff 😋!!

[shivatar]

What you mean by let go? Is it to let go of the illusion or reality? That's why I said you're far from the real world. You're at a small corner of somewhere. And to be on the edge of life or death and you said "let go". I think you're in a sweet dream. Dreaming of goodness and sweetness..... But the fact don't agree with your thinking.

If I eliminate them the world will enjoy its peace but if I let it go then turmoil or mess or danger will wait for you afterwards or in the future. Unless they agreed to be good and never cause troubles again but can you really trust the demons? Or can the demons be trusted?


I mean surrender more often. It's hard to say what I was meaning because it's such a deep and complex issue, if I said it again I would say "let go of how certain you are of your own thoughts". You speak with the severity of a prison guard or a judge, and I highly doubt you are those things, so it leads me to believe that you're so strongly attached to the words you say and advice you give for some unknown reason.

I don't really need to know why you believe your self so deeply, I've seen enough to see that it's not balanced and is causing you problems.

--

I honestly don't think harm will come if you let go of that battle. Do you truly believe there is no-one else who can do what you do? Are you some kind of spiritual warlord who goes around battling demons for the joy of it?

[Jeremy Bong]

I mean surrender more often. It's hard to say what I was meaning because it's such a deep and complex issue, if I said it again I would say "let go of how certain you are of your own thoughts". You speak with the severity of a prison guard or a judge, and I highly doubt you are those things, so it leads me to believe that you're so strongly attached to the words you say and advice you give for some unknown reason.

I don't really need to know why you believe your self so deeply, I've seen enough to see that it's not balanced and is causing you problems.

--

I honestly don't think harm will come if you let go of that battle. Do you truly believe there is no-one else who can do what you do? Are you some kind of spiritual warlord who goes around battling demons for the joy of it?

It's always someone come out of nowhere to ask me such sort of questions why not let go of the warfare? It wasn't simply a warfare of personal of win an loose but for the whole mankind or godly beings. That's all including of good and evil. I've said it over and over again.

What your understanding is a bit behind the truth. Always at a state of not recognized the situation. As you said, I'm the drama King. Then you said again I'm causing the trouble or off balance why not you say the same thing to yourself, that's your own reflection of your.

It's simple, do you able see a ghost? Or do you have third eyesight? If you're not then what ever is real or not you never know.

I can see, touch, smell, listen ,communicate with them, live with them, have our own Cupid sons..... So you call it fantasy, then what's not fantasy again, I doubt about your perception of fantasy?

[jorddy]

Faith

When you walk to the edge of all the light you have
and take that first step into the darkness of the unknown,
you must believe that one of two things will happen:

There will be something solid for you to stand upon,
or, you will be taught how to fly...

~ Patrick Overton

Art -Natalia Rak


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/angelicrealm/15740809_1845841435661362_1937149399106138816_n.jp g (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/angelicrealm/media/15740809_1845841435661362_1937149399106138816_n.jp g.html)


This literally sums up how I feel after exposing myself to such depths the past two days as I visited my brother.

Coming back home, I feel like my whole life has been flipped over and moved around.

Me sitting here thinking about what I should do now.. See my actions as way different than before and seeing the things I was doing before as way less appetizing to me now.. Seeing the exact moments in life that I want now and not being able to get them in this very moment.

But the only way to get there is to listen to my intuition and start doing things that don't make too much sense right now and let them grow into what they might.. Maybe something that resembles the depths of love that I had received the past 2 days when fully exposing my self to this girl.

I feel a new sense of love in my belly, but nothing in my environment reflects this new sense of love that I have within me.
So now I am trying to find the way to work to that point in life where I can feel this feeling reflected back at me by the things within it.. Because when they are only there within me, they are half of what they can be.

[Jeremy Bong]

This literally sums up how I feel after exposing myself to such depths the past two days as I visited my brother.

Coming back home, I feel like my whole life has been flipped over and moved around.

Me sitting here thinking about what I should do now.. See my actions as way different than before and seeing the things I was doing before as way less appetizing to me now.. Seeing the exact moments in life that I want now and not being able to get them in this very moment.

But the only way to get there is to listen to my intuition and start doing things that don't make too much sense right now and let them grow into what they might.. Maybe something that resembles the depths of love that I had received the past 2 days when fully exposing my self to this girl.

I feel a new sense of love in my belly, but nothing in my environment reflects this new sense of love that I have within me.
So now I am trying to find the way to work to that point in life where I can feel this feeling reflected back at me by the things within it.. Because when they are only there within me, they are half of what they can be.

About your joining date and your posts, it seems there's some indication of some kinds. Give me a wild guess, your former posts was greatly deleted by the former staffs
and you come back but not the staffs that had treated you lastly.

So you may have a new life and a new beginning. I wish you happy new year. But whenever, whatever, however the thinking of people are the same. Good luck.

[jorddy]

....................

[Jeremy Bong]

....................

That mean you agreed with what I said. Thank you, so behave to join us again then I can see your other side of goodness. Don't cling on something not necessary or not benefit others. Do something useful that others can appreciate and... .......good.

[naturesflow]

That mean you agreed with what I said. Thank you, so behave to join us again then I can see your other side of goodness. Don't cling on something not necessary or not benefit others. Do something useful that others can appreciate and... .......good.

I feel a giggle in me reading this Jeremy. You seem to be getting more and more direct. This is a good thing as I learned in myself. If you beat around the bush, you ended up with two many prickles in your butt that actually start hurting.
I am not sure if I feel a truce coming on or .................... Slate that can be filled any which way but lose me thinks..lol.


(don't mind my humour, it is in no way intended to offend. Just really more to enjoy myself laughing and sharing in my own humour pot.

[naturesflow]

This literally sums up how I feel after exposing myself to such depths the past two days as I visited my brother.

Coming back home, I feel like my whole life has been flipped over and moved around.

Me sitting here thinking about what I should do now.. See my actions as way different than before and seeing the things I was doing before as way less appetizing to me now.. Seeing the exact moments in life that I want now and not being able to get them in this very moment.

But the only way to get there is to listen to my intuition and start doing things that don't make too much sense right now and let them grow into what they might.. Maybe something that resembles the depths of love that I had received the past 2 days when fully exposing my self to this girl.

I feel a new sense of love in my belly, but nothing in my environment reflects this new sense of love that I have within me.
So now I am trying to find the way to work to that point in life where I can feel this feeling reflected back at me by the things within it.. Because when they are only there within me, they are half of what they can be.


Well done Jorrdy. I know your working really hard on yourself through this deeper level of self awareness and opening deeper. From the other side in me of this, I am aware of how difficult it can be, but how rewarding it becomes.

[Jeremy Bong]

I feel a giggle in me reading this Jeremy. You seem to be getting more and more direct. This is a good thing as I learned in myself. If you beat around the bush, you ended up with two many prickles in your butt that actually start hurting.
I am not sure if I feel a truce coming on or .................... Slate that can be filled any which way but lose me thinks..lol.


(don't mind my humour, it is in no way intended to offend. Just really more to enjoy myself laughing and sharing in my own humour pot.

If we went fishing then we hope for some catch. If not we come again this is insistence that's good attitude of right procedure. But it seems that this type of things have to be done at close door practice. That's one by one or face to face. This is not a course here. A lot will be affected if not mistaken. Joy is joy and fact is fact. But this seem to be new to a lot of people here. This can be showing to both of you the possible outcome of results. But you can be easy with what I said.

[jorddy]

I have nothing more to say to Jeremy, that's actually why I replaced my words with ........ because it had to be replaced with something. I deleted my previous words because I decline on accepting a conversation with him any longer. His mood is poisonous and had no place in my world. Of course, this is of my opinion, y'all can feel differently.
-

Yeah NF, I just meditated for an hour thinking it over. I am trying to fully embrace it into my being. The colors of blood orange sprouted in my imaginations as I did. An energetic and lively warming love.

It happened so unexpected. The girl was basically grieving with many different problems and through a 7 hour convo I got her to realize that she needed to detach herself from the validation she was giving the world... When she finally understood, she made this humongous grin and started laughing.. I literally felt an explosion in myself, like so much happiness.. It took a while because I was breaking through each excuse that she was making.. And also because we were in between that convo and other ones with different emotions.

Then after it all, I left and since then I have been just so dazzled from the intense conversation we had.. I shared myself with her to the deepest without reserve and it was probably the most intense convo I had with someone because she shared herself with me to the depth that I was sharing with her.


I think it was the first conversation I ever had with someone in real life where I was completely exposed. It showed me how much I want to share myself with people. How much I want to be surrounded by people who I can be so exposed with. It's like a whole different way of life.

The love that I received from it made me realize that I have been aiming for the wrong goals. Considering that the old goals I was aiming for were based on conserving the love I had previously rather than building on it through exposure.

[naturesflow]

I have nothing more to say to Jeremy, that's actually why I replaced my words with ........ because it had to be replaced with something. I deleted my previous words because I decline on accepting a conversation with him any longer. His mood is poisonous and had no place in my world. Of course, this is of my opinion, y'all can feel differently.
-

Yeah NF, I just meditated for an hour thinking it over. I am trying to fully embrace it into my being. The colors of blood orange sprouted in my imaginations as I did. An energetic and lively warming love.

It happened so unexpected. The girl was basically grieving with many different problems and through a 7 hour convo I got her to realize that she needed to detach herself from the validation she was giving the world... When she finally understood, she made this humongous grin and started laughing.. I literally felt an explosion in myself, like so much happiness.. It took a while because I was breaking through each excuse that she was making.. And also because we were in between that convo and other ones with different emotions.

Then after it all, I left and since then I have been just so dazzled from the intense conversation we had.. I shared myself with her to the deepest without reserve and it was probably the most intense convo I had with someone because she shared herself with me to the depth that I was sharing with her.


I think it was the first conversation I ever had with someone in real life where I was completely exposed. It showed me how much I want to share myself with people. How much I want to be surrounded by people who I can be so exposed with. It's like a whole different way of life.

The love that I received from it made me realize that I have been aiming for the wrong goals. Considering that the old goals I was aiming for were based on conserving the love I had previously rather than building on it through exposure.


Very cool for you. Love is a many splendid thing...just like the song :)

Yes the shattering is what breaks you all apart and into pieces, but then the new you requires you to be aware that was then, this is now and the now can be seen/experienced in total different light..

Last night I noticed that in my natural openness with the group I was with, the ladies in the group where I was sitting, began to open up and show their vulnerable sides. One in fact shared her significant wall in herself and why and how it works for her. I listened and realized it was probably the first time in a long long time, she was actually able to give herself permission to open up her vulnerability. When you are open in your own, you naturally give people permission in theirs, without even trying.

[jorddy]

That's awesome, your presence gave her permission to exposure - just like mine did for the girl. It is such a brilliant moment in life to be in. It is a moment where you are learning new things right in front of your eyes, and feeling ways that you have never felt before. It's like being a little kid again and exploring life for the first time.

[Shivani Devi]

Hi there. So, yet another existential crisis thread here....

There are lots of reasons behind my current state of depression, but the one I'm trying to figure out here is my lack of faith in even the most basic concepts of spirituality, like love and the soul.

My question is: For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?I was hesitant to post on this thread.

Suffice to say, for those of us who have experienced spiritual things and very often experience them, our faith, trust, love and understanding of the soul can still be severely lacking. I am walking, breathing proof of it.

My whole life has been one huge existential crisis and even though a basic 'belief in something much bigger than "little me' has always been there, not much else has.

This 'unknown element' of that which is greater than the sum of its parts has been given many names throughout the ages...but most just called it 'God' so I did too...I was aware God 'existed' but didn't have much to do with it.

It was many years later I found out how much of a detriment this was to me. Faith isn't something you 'have'...it is something that is bestowed, like Grace. All these emotions arise out of a sense of awe and wonderment.

When I look up at the heavens, I see the marvelous creation of galaxies and stars and planets...trillions and trillions...like grains of sand on the beach...like snowflakes, no two are alike...and I just feel 'connected' to it all, like I am a part of it all...and I pay homage to that 'much bigger than I am' thing.

After a while of doing it, the reverence and awe turned into pure love for a 'cosmic being' or a personification of total awesomeness which I could turn my attentions to and focus on. My heart chose the Hindu deity, Shiva.

Yet there are still times when I am holding on instead of letting go, holding back instead of giving all and holding out instead of surrendering that "little me" to the "all there is" and feeling the waves of peace and happiness just wash over me.

It worked for me anyway...

[Jeremy Bong]

Jorrdy,

I only tell the fact and not diversion to it. I hope you did so far is for fun not on promoting something or sale something. I doubt about it within these five years in here as a member, you're the first time in that process or joy or whatsoever. How can it be?

From your talking indicated you're not old. You know about this hypnosis things are in dangerous process to other viewers yet you do it freely and without warning of any kind, just to go on for everyone who maybe fall into your trap unconsciously. I doubt about your sincere attitude to everyone here. That's what I know.

[naturesflow]

Jorrdy,

I only tell the fact and not diversion to it. I hope you did so far is for fun not on promoting something or sale something. I doubt about it within these five years in here as a member, you're the first time in that process or joy or whatsoever. How can it be?

From your talking indicated you're not old. You know about this hypnosis things are in dangerous process to other viewers yet you do it freely and without warning of any kind, just to go on for everyone who maybe fall into your trap unconsciously. I doubt about your sincere attitude to everyone here. That's what I know.

Jeremy I hope you don't mind me intervening here, I don't really have too, but in reflection of your sharing, I was tuning into the age awareness you brought up. I was thinking back when I was Jorrdy's age and I realize how skewed my reality was. My reactions, my inability to understand deeper the nature of many aspects of myself. I was not even half awake to myself and not even half way to where many here at sf are within themselves.I look around here at sf and observe the many young people who are dealing with a great deal in the face of their normal age, development and life experiences. Most cannot fully engage in to know deeper much of their awareness through life experiences yet. They are still young and have a life ahead of them to grow into all this. Being aware and integrating it all into life, is tough enough when your older, much harder when your younger, trying to make a life. In sharing that, I look at many of them and see how amazing they are doing in relation to their life, work, waking up and dealing with many altered experiences. I am understanding of where they are and need to be for now, because I understand and have compassion for my own process.

I felt like I wanted to speak up and just bring to you this awareness, to consider and take into account much more than just what you see as wrong in people.

Sometimes it is better to inspire people where they are and give them a break from this constant invasion upon their process and journey that as I have already mentioned.."Most are doing their best" most are doing and trying their best.

You cant come at people over and over and expect them to listen to you openly. I notice most switch off to you. So your not even being heard anyway. It doesn't register in them. They are more reacting and getting their back up with you. If that was me I would consider my own reactions and ways of relating and stop exposing them over and over. I would know I have said my piece, end of story. Of course that is me.

I have no expectations upon you to take anything from this, by the way. Just wanted to offer something to the picture.


I am not taking anything away from your seeing and awareness. It is what it is for you. There is much more to consider in the whole nature of people, their lives and how sometimes it can be difficult in the midst of all that and get things right all the time. Sometimes it takes a long time to get things. Sometimes we learn in other ways that are heard and honoured. Not rejected because someone keeps pushing up against them and they are not listening or hearing what is being shared.



Our eyes are not viewers, they're also projectors that are running a second story over the picture that we see in front of us all the time. Fear is writing that script, and the working title is 'I'll never be enough'
~ Jim Carrey

[SecretDreams333]

so you have read theories and not seen or experianced
such things for you self
why read them ?
why not just nelief what you are and know and can do
and do some thing cool with that
drop stuff that brings you down
go for stuff you like and that works for you

[Jeremy Bong]

Jeremy I hope you don't mind me intervening here, I don't really have too, but in reflection of your sharing, I was tuning into the age awareness you brought up. I was thinking back when I was Jorrdy's age and I realize how skewed my reality was. My reactions, my inability to understand deeper the nature of many aspects of myself. I was not even half awake to myself and not even half way to where many here at sf are within themselves.I look around here at sf and observe the many young people who are dealing with a great deal in the face of their normal age, development and life experiences. Most cannot fully engage in to know deeper much of their awareness through life experiences yet. They are still young and have a life ahead of them to grow into all this. Being aware and integrating it all into life, is tough enough when your older, much harder when your younger, trying to make a life. In sharing that, I look at many of them and see how amazing they are doing in relation to their life, work, waking up and dealing with many altered experiences. I am understanding of where they are and need to be for now, because I understand and have compassion for my own process.

I felt like I wanted to speak up and just bring to you this awareness, to consider and take into account much more than just what you see as wrong in people.

Sometimes it is better to inspire people where they are and give them a break from this constant invasion upon their process and journey that as I have already mentioned.."Most are doing their best" most are doing and trying their best.

You cant come at people over and over and expect them to listen to you openly. I notice most switch off to you. So your not even being heard anyway. It doesn't register in them. They are more reacting and getting their back up with you. If that was me I would consider my own reactions and ways of relating and stop exposing them over and over. I would know I have said my piece, end of story. Of course that is me.

I have no expectations upon you to take anything from this, by the way. Just wanted to offer something to the picture.


I am not taking anything away from your seeing and awareness. It is what it is for you. There is much more to consider in the whole nature of people, their lives and how sometimes it can be difficult in the midst of all that and get things right all the time. Sometimes it takes a long time to get things. Sometimes we learn in other ways that are heard and honoured. Not rejected because someone keeps pushing up against them and they are not listening or hearing what is being shared.



Our eyes are not viewers, they're also projectors that are running a second story over the picture that we see in front of us all the time. Fear is writing that script, and the working title is 'I'll never be enough'
~ Jim Carrey

Do you see careful what I'm saying, naturesflow? What I stress is the hypnosis that he carrying out in this process. Not the end process of it. But the results is what you wanted that's OK for you. But the people in between after saw this one may in some way affected by the side effects of others which is not appropriated I suppose.

You point is you want to know yourself better that better can it be just for fun. It's like to drink the strong drink what you saw and feel may not real or just allusion or illusion. Is it not injure of you brain in extreme? That's something that we don't know. You may said, why I care about it? Yeah, that's not everyone wanted, do you not agree with my point? That's why I suggest at a close door practice.

One more thing, this is a public place and you're doing this type of hypnosis then you only know of your own purposes. And you said most of them "support him" that's is your imagination I suppose. Maybe one or two support because they don't know tthe danger of playing of hypnosis.

As I have find out most of this user is the doctor to their patients that's for good purpose. But for everyone that will be very unacceptable don't you think so. Or just said your grandson want to ask money from you then he try to using this hypnosis types of doing then he'll get what he wanted. After he grew up he's more clever to use the method to achieve his aim. So you see this is not what you expected I think. There are many more a cheater can do by using this techniques then the society will be more complicated of its formation. ......

[Jeremy Bong]

so you have read theories and not seen or experianced
such things for you self
why read them ?
why not just nelief what you are and know and can do
and do some thing cool with that
drop stuff that brings you down
go for stuff you like and that works for you

Your question is one of the reason why I opposed it seriously. In there SF I was treated by some of the members many time using hypnosis to attack me but of course isn't that easy. That's why I am more sensitive on this matter.

[Greenslade]

It feels like....I don't know any truths, though. People tell me to make my own meaning, but I don't really understand.
"It feels like....." Exactly. "It feels like...." so keep that idea going, it feels like you don't know the truth because you haven't come across something that "Feels like..." something you can call the truth. I'm going to make a sweeping assumption here so correct me if I'm wrong, but you're more of a 'feeling' person rather than a thinking one.

How do you think most people come to some kind of truth or at least what they say is the truth? That's really where your troubles begin. The truth is relative to one's own agenda and the agenda can be to say they know what the truth is. That's not the truth that's hubris more than anything else. I'm guessing that doesn't resonate with you as much as making up your own meanings. For others it's a process of the mind, the processing of information via what they deem as logic so they can say "I know the truth."

For you, the truth is that you feel like you don't know any truths. Conversely, does it really feel as though you need to know them? Very much emphasis on the word 'feel'. If you are a feeling person more than a thinking one, go with that because that will bring you into alignment with yourself. Feeling like a square peg in a round hole, that you don't fit with the people around you, you don't fit with 'their' Spirituality?

Let it go, just let it all go. It's OK not to have truths, it's OK to be just the way you are and it's just as OK not to be them. The question to ask yourself is what would you have to hold as true for you to think the way you do? What most don't realise is that what they tell of is not the truth but what they hold to be true. Huge difference.

[naturesflow]

Do you see careful what I'm saying, naturesflow? What I stress is the hypnosis that he carrying out in this process. Not the end process of it. But the results is what you wanted that's OK for you. But the people in between after saw this one may in some way affected by the side effects of others which is not appropriated I suppose.

You point is you want to know yourself better that better can it be just for fun. It's like to drink the strong drink what you saw and feel may not real or just allusion or illusion. Is it not injure of you brain in extreme? That's something that we don't know. You may said, why I care about it? Yeah, that's not everyone wanted, do you not agree with my point? That's why I suggest at a close door practice.

One more thing, this is a public place and you're doing this type of hypnosis then you only know of your own purposes. And you said most of them "support him" that's is your imagination I suppose. Maybe one or two support because they don't know tthe danger of playing of hypnosis.

As I have find out most of this user is the doctor to their patients that's for good purpose. But for everyone that will be very unacceptable don't you think so. Or just said your grandson want to ask money from you then he try to using this hypnosis types of doing then he'll get what he wanted. After he grew up he's more clever to use the method to achieve his aim. So you see this is not what you expected I think. There are many more a cheater can do by using this techniques then the society will be more complicated of its formation. ......


Thankyou for explaining further.

I understand where your coming from. I really do.

And I know that this is where you are and choosing to see and build awareness.

I also see what you mean about process, rather than end result.



Can I ask you in this way?

If what you see and offer to others in this way you are doing is important to others and important to what you see, is it important to build an enemy in the "way" you do this? Or can you see that there may be another "way" to share what you see without building an enemy of others your trying to convey too? By exposing in this way, you are not building understanding more complete between parties, you are just telling another how it is and will be. To me this kind of ripple doesn't create harmony in process and harmony of life, it creates unnecessary warfare in ways where people are rejecting you, rejecting what your saying and at times resenting much of what you offer. This is what I mean falling on deaf ears.

Would the process your offering be better served to others and yourself in ways where both build a foundation in process that both are listening to each other? Not just you telling..

Looking into what you are offering is falling on death ears, so it isn't having an affect in positive ways of change or just seems to be creating more enemies towards you Jeremey.

How is that working for you? How is that working for the other.

Would you be able to direct your answers to the questions I pose you more directly this time?

Thankyou if you would and can.

[Jeremy Bong]

Thankyou for explaining further.

I understand where your coming from. I really do.

And I know that this is where you are and choosing to see and build awareness.

I also see what you mean about process, rather than end result.



Can I ask you in this way?

If what you see and offer to others in this way you are doing is important to others and important to what you see, is it important to build an enemy in the "way" you do this? Or can you see that there may be another "way" to share what you see without building an enemy of others your trying to convey too? By exposing in this way, you are not building understanding more complete between parties, you are just telling another how it is and will be. To me this kind of ripple doesn't create harmony in process and harmony of life, it creates unnecessary warfare in ways where people are rejecting you, rejecting what your saying and at times resenting much of what you offer. This is what I mean falling on deaf ears.

Would the process your offering be better served to others and yourself in ways where both build a foundation in process that both are listening to each other? Not just you telling..

Looking into what you are offering is falling on death ears, so it isn't having an affect in positive ways of change or just seems to be creating more enemies towards you Jeremey.

How is that working for you? How is that working for the other.

Would you be able to direct your answers to the questions I pose you more directly this time?

Thankyou if you would and can.

Sorry to state that you're too naive. And I explained to you vertically and horizontally橫说竖说。Do you read what Greenslade has written ? Although it seem to write to other but what he wrote and his insight and understanding has already given you the clear and perfect answer but you insist to protect the insincere behavior of doing. Whereby I still can add more further.

What I see is that bad side of it but you see is the good side of it. So on contrasting these two, maybe both are lead astray. I saw somewhere (I forgot where) that a person was hypnotized to see his past life and found that it wasn't true.

And what you saw can be under the control by the person who controlled you in the process as I said any kid to asking money from his elders. I said your grandson is to let you to feeling of it when it does that way so the prospective harm will/can be more worse.

I don't create any warfare here but I created an understanding of the process that's truth is truth wherever you put it, it's truth. If you didn't take/see it seriously then it's worse than like a lot of kids in US using their parents guns to shot other family members. It can have more reasons to obtain it for protection but accidents did happen here and there.

You said I am a deaf ears but you're doing it after my warning, I think you deserve it more than I do. There's a Chinese idiom: a person was cheated (his money) yet to help the cheater to count the money for him (the cheater) 受骗还替骗子算钱。

You can said that's what you familiar of this game but the person can control you any time to do whatever things the first person wanted you to do. Why he give you a P for? Even first and last also know how to control you. This is the truth and function of hypnosis. Why I want to protect you, no you're you, but there are many more.....others viewers.. ..and as I said, I'm also formerly victims of other members here. Lastly don't be a deaf ears of yourself.


橫说竖说: explained horizontally and vertically, meaning exhaust all means of persuasion/explanation.

[naturesflow]

Sorry to state that you're too naive. Do you read what Greenslade has written ? Although it seem to write to other but what he wrote and his insight and understanding has already given you the clear and perfect answer but you insist to protect the insincere behavior of doing. Whereby I still can add more further.

What I see is that bad side of it but you see is the good side of it. So on contrasting these two, maybe both are lead astray. I saw somewhere (I forgot where) that a person was hypnotized to see his past life and found that it wasn't true.

And what you saw can be under the control by the person who controlled you in the process as I said any kid to asking money from his elders. I said your grandson is to let you to feeling of it when it does that way so the prospective harm will/can be more worse.

I don't create any warfare here but I created an understanding of the process that's truth is truth wherever you put it, it's truth. If you didn't take/see it seriously then it's worse than like a lot of kids in US using their parents guns to shot other family members. It can have more reasons to obtain it for protection but accidents did happen here and there.

You said I am a deaf ears but you're doing it after my warning, I think you deserve it more than I do. There's a Chinese idiom: a person was cheated (his money) yet to help the cheater to count the money for him (the cheater) 受骗还替骗子算钱。

You can said that's what you familiar of this game but the person can control you any time to do whatever things the first person wanted you to do. Why he give you a P for? Even first and last also know how to control you. This is the truth and function of hypnosis. Why I want to protect you, no you're you, but there are many more.....others viewers.. ..and as I said, I'm also formerly victims of other members here. Lastly don't be a deaf ears of yourself.


If both sides are equally valued Jeremey and I see both sides, yours and my own in this view in me, they are valued. I realized something important, by conversing with you about this. It isn't the view that hinders, or the reason why it needs to be, as they well me be with good intent, and a very valuable source, but the willingness to actually know that the other is listening to your offering and considering this in your sharing. What good is your view in the offering if the other leaves here, rejected by you and feeling more anger, rather than from your offering a way to become more aware of himself/herself, his/her ripple will probably be amplified by the emotional response and work in other ways that may continue this issue into the world in other ways. What if this creates more of this issue than necessary in the fallout of this. Does it support this change, or does it amplify the issue Jeremy?

How you go about it is what is creating this ripple could well create more disharmony in the world beyond here. In my own personal responsibility of sharing myself, I am mindful of that ripple in me, that can amplify issues you see or quite possibly bring it to what you see a temporary halt. The deeper impact if we use a scenario that continues in the face of with you, in this way, could well have the next person cop it ten fold.

SO how do you determine what you do has worked with for example Jorrdy?

How can you determine you have put a stop to this issue you see?

YOu can determine that you are stopping it here in its tracks by this method. Are you really stopping it for good in the choice and way in which you are reflecting to others (namely Jorrdy) That is my argument here. I am only using Jorrdy as an example in this more inclusive by the way.

I understand sometimes we need to speak up of course and do what is right in us when we see things not right. I respect that too. But right can be unaware of what wrong can become of that space in the amplification not always in the way you intend it to go. But the feelings you are opening in others in this way, that are resisted are actually dug into deeper and projected in other ways. I know we are each responsible for our feelings and actions. But there is some aspect of personal responsibility to bring peace/harmony/loving kindness to all beings through my actions more inclusive. But that is me of course.

True relating and releasing, true offerings and awareness with personal responsibility of itself and the offering would consider much of what I am sharing as I am considering much of what you are.

Personal responsibility can be viewed in many ways not just the way your showing to protect here. Of course I do not know what reflections others take so I consider change could well be taken in your offerings. I am not discounting this either. But I have seen the nature of people confronting and not thinking about the greater ripple that moves beyond just what they are protecting in one space. The space of here is the space of everywhere, so I would be considering this in my relating because I can I suppose.

If you do not see the ripple affects as it might be beyond what ripple you show me here, then that may be why.

Falling on deaf ears, of itself would be aware of itself in the other person listening. In the observation of both ryan wind and Jorrdy I see both deaf ears coming together and reacting to each others issues rather than responding with awareness of more than the issue itself.

So in fact my deaf ears where I was once doing the same as you are doing to bring to light many things learned to listen deeper in myself to bring a more harmonized awareness into the sharing so that I have no need to tell. I am just the awareness I lead as.

If you cannot feel this harmony in yourself naturally you would not hear in your own conveying of yourself.

If you can only hear the injustice and protection at all costs to others in this way you show, without thought of how others in how they receive your offering in the space of personal responsibility and preservation of deeper healing, then that is what you will convey of course.

If you ask yourself is Jorrdy listening to you in all this? what might you respond with? If you are truly listening to his response would you not hear in you, that he is not listening to you.

I would ask myself, how is that working for me as a protector and worker to preserve the safety and protection of others. yes it may temporarily appease the situation but is it change deeper that reflects itself deeper for another to actually hear you deeper.

And take with them a source of deeper ripples of change that continues long after they leave this rejection of you.

[naturesflow]

I don't see you as naive by the way.

I choose not to judge others, more bring awareness to what I have learned deeper in myself.

So please if you wish to continue and add more Jeremy, I am open to hear you and listen to your view, we can go as deep as you wish too.

[Jeremy Bong]

If both sides are equally valued Jeremey and I see both sides, yours and my own in this view in me, they are valued. I realized something important, by conversing with you about this. It isn't the view that hinders, or the reason why it needs to be, as they well me be with good intent, and a very valuable source, but the willingness to actually know that the other is listening to your offering and considering this in your sharing. What good is your view in the offering if the other leaves here, rejected by you and feeling more anger, rather than from your offering a way to become more aware of himself/herself, his/her ripple will probably be amplified by the emotional response and work in other ways that may continue this issue into the world in other ways. What if this creates more of this issue than necessary in the fallout of this. Does it support this change, or does it amplify the issue Jeremy?

How you go about it is what is creating this ripple could well create more disharmony in the world beyond here. In my own personal responsibility of sharing myself, I am mindful of that ripple in me, that can amplify issues you see or quite possibly bring it to what you see a temporary halt. The deeper impact if we use a scenario that continues in the face of with you, in this way, could well have the next person cop it ten fold.

SO how do you determine what you do has worked with for example Jorrdy?

How can you determine you have put a stop to this issue you see?

YOu can determine that you are stopping it here in its tracks by this method. Are you really stopping it for good in the choice and way in which you are reflecting to others (namely Jorrdy) That is my argument here. I am only using Jorrdy as an example in this more inclusive by the way.

I understand sometimes we need to speak up of course and do what is right in us when we see things not right. I respect that too. But right can be unaware of what wrong can become of that space in the amplification not always in the way you intend it to go. But the feelings you are opening in others in this way, that are resisted are actually dug into deeper and projected in other ways. I know we are each responsible for our feelings and actions. But there is some aspect of personal responsibility to bring peace/harmony/loving kindness to all beings through my actions more inclusive. But that is me of course.

True relating and releasing, true offerings and awareness with personal responsibility of itself and the offering would consider much of what I am sharing as I am considering much of what you are.

Personal responsibility can be viewed in many ways not just the way your showing to protect here. Of course I do not know what reflections others take so I consider change could well be taken in your offerings. I am not discounting this either. But I have seen the nature of people confronting and not thinking about the greater ripple that moves beyond just what they are protecting in one space. The space of here is the space of everywhere, so I would be considering this in my relating because I can I suppose.

If you do not see the ripple affects as it might be beyond what ripple you show me here, then that may be why.

Falling on deaf ears, of itself would be aware of itself in the other person listening. In the observation of both ryan wind and Jorrdy I see both deaf ears coming together and reacting to each others issues rather than responding with awareness of more than the issue itself.

So in fact my deaf ears where I was once doing the same as you are doing to bring to light many things learned to listen deeper in myself to bring a more harmonized awareness into the sharing so that I have no need to tell. I am just the awareness I lead as.

If you cannot feel this harmony in yourself naturally you would not hear in your own conveying of yourself.

If you can only hear the injustice and protection at all costs to others in this way you show, without thought of how others in how they receive your offering in the space of personal responsibility and preservation of deeper healing, then that is what you will convey of course.

If you ask yourself is Jorrdy listening to you in all this? what might you respond with? If you are truly listening to his response would you not hear in you, that he is not listening to you.

I would ask myself, how is that working for me as a protector and worker to preserve the safety and protection of others. yes it may temporarily appease the situation but is it change deeper that reflects itself deeper for another to actually hear you deeper.

And take with them a source of deeper ripples of change that continues long after they leave this rejection of you.

I have explained to you all what you wrote here. That's all is you own responsibility. Actually I didn't write direct to you. I only wrote to jorrdy and wanted him to tell the fact/purpose of the hypnosis. You tried to do for not your part fit to did it.

As I said/edited in my last post with a Chinese idiom: 橫说竖说explained to you horizontally and vertically : meaning, exhaust all means of persuasion/explanation. Yet you're you as you're.

Why not you ask him how many times within these five years here, how many of his posts have been deleted?You can't see the fact that's OK. Am I the only person to feel that way........

[jorddy]

A) My account got deleted because the server went down and it caused everyone to lose their accounts in 2010.
B) None of my threads were ever deleted.

Again, you make these wild assumptions.

What you are doing right now is 'hypnosis'. You are yelling at people to see life from your perspective.

Fear is bred from within the perceiver, as well as the pain that is invoked on them due to their fearful expressions.

Life is without death, but to those who yell victimization death is imminent. Death is the only thing that they think about. You are corrupted by fear. Now, you can continuously scream out to the world to be saved, because you are scared of your imminent death..

You can live a life of continuous death, in a mood of continuous scarcity. You can see others for the images that you cast on them because you are in a reactionary state of mind. When you live without self love, you see others as things that can influence you. You are not the influencer of your world..

NF and everyone else that hears you for nothing more than you're squeaks is hearing you in that manner because they are not attached to the world. They are not victims of reality. They are the CREATORS of the world.



You sit here and you batter everyone around you. Bad talk everyone. This is a further exploration of your ego-inflation. You have a need to overstate the image of yourself and to understate the image of everyone else because you are ATTACHED to your image. You are in a reactionary state where everyone's perception of you is the cause of how you feel about yourself. You are the exact opposite of living freely, exposed and vulnerable.. You are holding onto reality for your dear life. Attached to every reflection that is made at you rather than attached to the observer of yourself and of your continuous growth.



When you are seeking validation, you only see people as they are a relation to your being.. This is because rather than becoming the role you wish through your mood, you follow tail on how everyone around you is reacting to you. This is why a person who's validation dependent tries to force others to perceive them a certain way by negative tactics like ridiculing them. They are relating their role with that of the roles of those around them, and that causes them to look at life in a light where they are continuously stepping on other people to feel like they are above them.
This is why some people have the propensity to get upset when they feel 'disrespected'. - The disrespect stems from their inability to detach themselves from the world, they are reactionary and depending on the world's perception of them to validate whether they are or aren't the image that they wish they were.
Someone without a need for validation would never look to the world to give them the image they are, because they have full self-love, they are whatever image they wish upon themselves and remain in that image without a care for the reactions they receive. They don't need validation.

Along with that value leeching behavior also comes the complimentary behavior of dividing oneself from others. I say this because when you divide yourself, you are looking at everyone for the stereotypical images that you place everyone in..
Though, you wouldn't recognize this because you're not looking at their current problem as a basis of their current naiveté, you're looking at it as an image that they are.. This occurs because you are still attached to your image, you are still validation dependent.. As soon as you release yourself from validation, you stop caring about the image that you cast off, you become fully expressive and immerse people into your mood.. You stop being so reactive.. You instead look at them for the current mood that they're in.. Instead of looking at their role and how that role effects you because it doesn't effect you any longer, you are effecting your environment in a non-reactionary state.. And rather than making an imaginary divider between you two, you give them an option to enter into your mood and learn from your current position in life because of your natural tendency of self-expression.

And if they don't enter into your mood, then you are dismissive of their mood BUT you do not look down on them because you realize that they are in their mood for whatever reason they are in it. You can either try to help them get out of it, or let them be. But you recognize their current mood as their self-expressions of their current state.



Now, I as I have stated continuously, regardless of all the victimization you scream out, you are dismissed from my reality because you are not accepting a position within the uplifting mood that I present. You yell at people that:

A) They are either a practitioner of evil
or
B) They are low because they don't know as much as you

You are a value leech. You suck the life and good energy out of people. You try to suppress people who share good energy and you try to block sharers of good energy from sharing more. You are the definition of poison.

Though, you is just a reflection of the state that you're currently in, the mood that you are allowing yourself to steep in - it is a reflection of the current problems that you are faced with.

As I said, you may either live as a victim and cling onto life afraid of death, or you may set yourself free and join a life of happiness. Regardless, the world will reflect back at you what you choose. As well, the things that are not aligned with you (the higher states of being) will be filtered out - as I have done. I dismiss your negative mood, the mood that you try so desperately to drag everyone else into.

You are cancerous to those whom are weak. You probably stand strong in real life amongst the weak-willed. But to people of this community, you look as nothing more than you are.

This post probably infuriates you because I am taking away the image that you try to force upon other people to see you as. Relinquish this anger by detaching yourself from reality and allowing yourself to step beyond the current problems that are plaguing you.

[firstandlast]

I learned the greatest secret to controlling everyone is to will them to be themselves-- As such, the greatest priority I have to maintain that will, is to be myself absolutely--

It wasn't hard; I just had to.. be--

Also the hardest thing I ever had to do, easiest at well--

[naturesflow]

I have explained to you all what you wrote here. That's all is you own responsibility. Actually I didn't write direct to you. I only wrote to jorrdy and wanted him to tell the fact/purpose of the hypnosis. You tried to do for not your part fit to did it.

As I said/edited in my last post with a Chinese idiom: 橫说竖说explained to you horizontally and vertically : meaning, exhaust all means of persuasion/explanation. Yet you're you as you're.

Why not you ask him how many times within these five years here, how many of his posts have been deleted?You can't see the fact that's OK. Am I the only person to feel that way........

I am letting go.

I do that in process when I see the past is no longer for me. So I trust you know what your doing for yourself in all this.

Good luck with your endeavours Jeremy.

Time for me to redirect myself away from this now.

[Jeremy Bong]

A) My account got deleted because the server went down and it caused everyone to lose their accounts in 2010.
B) None of my threads were ever deleted.

Again, you make these wild assumptions.

What you are doing right now is 'hypnosis'. You are yelling at people to see life from your perspective.

Fear is bred from within the perceiver, as well as the pain that is invoked on them due to their fearful expressions.

Life is without death, but to those who yell victimization death is imminent. Death is the only thing that they think about. You are corrupted by fear. Now, you can continuously scream out to the world to be saved, because you are scared of your imminent death..

You can live a life of continuous death, in a mood of continuous scarcity. You can see others for the images that you cast on them because you are in a reactionary state of mind. When you live without self love, you see others as things that can influence you. You are not the influencer of your world..

NF and everyone else that hears you for nothing more than you're squeaks is hearing you in that manner because they are not attached to the world. They are not victims of reality. They are the CREATORS of the world.



You sit here and you batter everyone around you. Bad talk everyone. This is a further exploration of your ego-inflation. You have a need to overstate the image of yourself and to understate the image of everyone else because you are ATTACHED to your image. You are in a reactionary state where everyone's perception of you is the cause of how you feel about yourself. You are the exact opposite of living freely, exposed and vulnerable.. You are holding onto reality for your dear life. Attached to every reflection that is made at you rather than attached to the observer of yourself and of your continuous growth.



When you are seeking validation, you only see people as they are a relation to your being.. This is because rather than becoming the role you wish through your mood, you follow tail on how everyone around you is reacting to you. This is why a person who's validation dependent tries to force others to perceive them a certain way by negative tactics like ridiculing them. They are relating their role with that of the roles of those around them, and that causes them to look at life in a light where they are continuously stepping on other people to feel like they are above them.
This is why some people have the propensity to get upset when they feel 'disrespected'. - The disrespect stems from their inability to detach themselves from the world, they are reactionary and depending on the world's perception of them to validate whether they are or aren't the image that they wish they were.
Someone without a need for validation would never look to the world to give them the image they are, because they have full self-love, they are whatever image they wish upon themselves and remain in that image without a care for the reactions they receive. They don't need validation.

Along with that value leeching behavior also comes the complimentary behavior of dividing oneself from others. I say this because when you divide yourself, you are looking at everyone for the stereotypical images that you place everyone in..
Though, you wouldn't recognize this because you're not looking at their current problem as a basis of their current naiveté, you're looking at it as an image that they are.. This occurs because you are still attached to your image, you are still validation dependent.. As soon as you release yourself from validation, you stop caring about the image that you cast off, you become fully expressive and immerse people into your mood.. You stop being so reactive.. You instead look at them for the current mood that they're in.. Instead of looking at their role and how that role effects you because it doesn't effect you any longer, you are effecting your environment in a non-reactionary state.. And rather than making an imaginary divider between you two, you give them an option to enter into your mood and learn from your current position in life because of your natural tendency of self-expression.

And if they don't enter into your mood, then you are dismissive of their mood BUT you do not look down on them because you realize that they are in their mood for whatever reason they are in it. You can either try to help them get out of it, or let them be. But you recognize their current mood as their self-expressions of their current state.



Now, I as I have stated continuously, regardless of all the victimization you scream out, you are dismissed from my reality because you are not accepting a position within the uplifting mood that I present. You yell at people that:

A) They are either a practitioner of evil
or
B) They are low because they don't know as much as you

You are a value leech. You suck the life and good energy out of people. You try to suppress people who share good energy and you try to block sharers of good energy from sharing more. You are the definition of poison.

Though, you is just a reflection of the state that you're currently in, the mood that you are allowing yourself to steep in - it is a reflection of the current problems that you are faced with.

As I said, you may either live as a victim and cling onto life afraid of death, or you may set yourself free and join a life of happiness. Regardless, the world will reflect back at you what you choose. As well, the things that are not aligned with you (the higher states of being) will be filtered out - as I have done. I dismiss your negative mood, the mood that you try so desperately to drag everyone else into.

You are cancerous to those whom are weak. You probably stand strong in real life amongst the weak-willed. But to people of this community, you look as nothing more than you are.

This post probably infuriates you because I am taking away the image that you try to force upon other people to see you as. Relinquish this anger by detaching yourself from reality and allowing yourself to step beyond the current problems that are plaguing you.

You said, there's a failure of the system here then from that time onwards you never posted in the forum so it's not of your control. So you're so patient to be quiet from 2010--2017 doing nothing in the forum yet now you're compelled to come out again.

Your post from the beginning to the last word only disagree and misleading others so I only can read it in random.

I only pick out some points to explain :
You said, "You are not accepting a position within the uplifting mood that I present ".

So far you are just new as the post of you represents and we haven't saw any good work you have done for the members here. So your saying is not valid for the moment.

You said about me, "You're cancerous to those whom are weak".

So do you mean I poison their mind or not you? What I do is to save them from harm but you're lead them astray. Your hypnosis is a cancerous time bomb so what I see is you distorted the position of me and you. Be sure you are who you are and I am me with no diversion of different purposes and agendas.

You long thesis didn't explain what all people in here wanted, so your explanation is not the fact that we want. Or you can prepare a shorter and persuasive one to us so that we understand your agenda or life purpose for humanity(as I have smell a bit of the taste).

But you got to know to be a Buddhist or a Christian is much more safer than your help. Don't you think so?

[jorddy]

A) My account got deleted because the server went down and it caused everyone to lose their accounts in 2010.
B) None of my threads were ever deleted.

Did I ever say that I didn't post after 2010?
No, I didn't lol.

The reason why you poison their mind is because they are attached to validation, so they listen to the ridicule that you scrape onto the walls.

How is my hypnosis a cancerous time bomb?

I want you to explain to me:
A) What you define as hypnotism
B) How I am hypnotizing people
C) What that hypnotism does

And i don't mean in your half-baked sentences. I want you to DESCRIBE how I am doing such.
Also, use proper english. If you don't, then you risk the chances of me not understanding what you're saying.

[Jeremy Bong]

A) My account got deleted because the server went down and it caused everyone to lose their accounts in 2010.
B) None of my threads were ever deleted.

Did I ever say that I didn't post after 2010?
No, I didn't lol.

The reason why you poison their mind is because they are attached to validation, so they listen to the ridicule that you scrape onto the walls.

How is my hypnosis a cancerous time bomb?

I want you to explain to me:
A) What you define as hypnotism
B) How I am hypnotizing people
C) What that hypnotism does

And i don't mean in your half-baked sentences. I want you to DESCRIBE how I am doing such.
Also, use proper english. If you don't, then you risk the chances of me not understanding what you're saying.

The records before Oct 2010 is out but after that all are kept in place. So what I explained/asked is after not before that time. Look back for it.

If you'd read what I wrote to naturesflow then you know what I have to said. I have explained it very carefully about the danger, that's only one of the example.

You're supposed to be expert of that capability so if you don't know what's hypnosis time bomb means that's how I should drop my glasses. Common sense as I should put it. Or find your answers in books or online.

[jorddy]

Lol. Truthfully, I have no idea what a hypnosis time bomb is.

All I am doing on this forum is writing what I believe to be true.

I do this to share this with others and to get their feedback.

I also come here to ask questions on things that I am pondering.

So, I really don't know what about my thoughts come off as hypnosis.. Maybe because they are from a philosophical base different than yours?
I don't really see that as hypnosis though, that's just spreading of different thought.

[Jeremy Bong]

Lol. Truthfully, I have no idea what a hypnosis time bomb is.

All I am doing on this forum is writing what I believe to be true.

I do this to share this with others and to get their feedback.

I also come here to ask questions on things that I am pondering.

So, I really don't know what about my thoughts come off as hypnosis.. Maybe because they are from a philosophical base different than yours?
I don't really see that as hypnosis though, that's just spreading of different thought.

I only explain what's "hypnosis time bomb". That's hypnosis is danger and it's a time bomb to most of us.

Last time you have admitted that it's hypnosis. And now you said, you really don't know, you must be kidding. Look back. Don't be "action" packed.

Firstandlast and Ryanwind have done the same things on me so you told me you are a layman or some sort of.... My goodness.

[jorddy]

I said that I am using hypnosis in a sense that my perspective on life causes you to see it in a certain light.

Something you need to consider though is that hypnosis is not possible without the end-user accepting the alteration of their perspective.

As well, if you use this definition of hypnosis, then you can say that any conversation is 'hypnosis', and that's what I was explaining to you in the previous post.
It's a blanket term that you're using to make it sound like I'm doing something evil - when i'm just sharing my perspective on life with people that have similar ones and to people that find it interesting. I am also sharing it in a sense that it leads to conversation on it.

This is why I told you to ask me about my perspective, like everyone else, rather than shoot it down like it's evil. Why would it even be considered evil? That is a pretense that comes from your perspective. So when you say that, you are actually 'hypnotizing' people to see my perspective as evil.

And if you find the perspective that I come from as 'evil', then this is probably not the right place for you.. The people here have a spiritual basis, this spiritual basis is based on the perspective that I am coming from. - It's based on introspection and connecting to spirit.

One of the main reasons why I even have this backbone of philosophy is because I was taught and learned on this site for the past 12 years. It shaped up the way I think... This is the major reason why I think so deeply into the thought that I do, because I had this site to guide me with all of its wonderful people.

So the slants that you make at my perspective, are slants towards a perspective that are at the base root of spiritualism. If you find that evil, then you probably find the majority of everyone here from that same apprehension - hence why no one is listening to you slant me with your negative words.


Why don't you join a community that you feel connects with your perspective more?

[Jeremy Bong]

I said that I am using hypnosis in a sense that my perspective on life causes you to see it in a certain light.

Something you need to consider though is that hypnosis is not possible without the end-user accepting the alteration of their perspective.

As well, if you use this definition of hypnosis, then you can say that any conversation is 'hypnosis', and that's what I was explaining to you in the previous post.
It's a blanket term that you're using to make it sound like I'm doing something evil - when i'm just sharing my perspective on life with people that have similar ones and to people that find it interesting. I am also sharing it in a sense that it leads to conversation on it.

This is why I told you to ask me about my perspective, like everyone else, rather than shoot it down like it's evil. Why would it even be considered evil? That is a pretense that comes from your perspective. So when you say that, you are actually 'hypnotizing' people to see my perspective as evil.

I only know hypnosis can be done to result in three levels, the lowest one, the medium, and the highest level. And your practice is belong to the highest level. So you tell other than that's just joke.

When you holding a rod through the cow's noses to lead it go around or working for you then you explain to me that's just words.

Others disagree with your found but they don't told you directly, they only show what's wrong of truth and fact, or they're good attitude person. I'm seeking/offering direct help.

So I think me and you have enough conversation and others can see what's right and wrong with their own judgment. So it's time to have some rest.

[jorddy]

Can you further elaborate on those three different levels?

You seem to know a lot more about hypnosis than I do, hahaha..

I'm happy though, I'm happy mine is of the highest level! My subconscious wizardry.

[Jeremy Bong]

Can you further elaborate on those three different levels?

You seem to know a lot more about hypnosis than I do, hahaha..

I'm happy though, I'm happy mine is of the highest level! My subconscious wizardry.

Google search!!!!

[jorddy]

Okay cool. So you're gonna stop calling me a hypnotist and instead join the conversations with questions and adding onto what we say?

[Shivani Devi]

Jeremy has problems with paranoia and a persecution complex.

A Buddhist thread about Tantra got turned into him saying that Tibetans are green lizard people and Tantra should be stopped by all 'Gods' who practice it.

When he started insulting my practices and saying he was going to send his 'Cupid Sons' to remove the 'wicked god', I said 'okay Jeremy, whatever' and unsubscribed from the thread.

Jeremy likes to believe he is the voice of authority because he knows all the 'bad gods' and 'good gods' and he can fight with demons and bring the rain...

Long story short, I learned not to try and match wits with an unarmed opponent. Sad, very sad...but true.

[jorddy]

Hah, thanks Necro. I was just trying to reason with him because I hate his negativity. I come here to be positive and it's annoying to see him jump on my every post with some kind of slander.

I think he's just in the wrong forum. I'm sure he'd meet people that connect with him elsewhere. It seems that he just doesn't relate with spirituality as a philosophy. I mean, this place is called spiritual forums, lol..

[Shivani Devi]

Hah, thanks Necro. I was just trying to reason with him because I hate his negativity. I come here to be positive and it's annoying to see him jump on my every post with some kind of slander.

I think he's just in the wrong forum. I'm sure he'd meet people that connect with him elsewhere. It seems that he just doesn't relate with spirituality as a philosophy. I mean, this place is called spiritual forums, lol..I understand entirely, but you'll send yourself crazy trying to apply reason. English isn't Jeremy's first language to be fair - but I believe he grasps enough of it to understand when his views offends others - but he'll just come right out and say it anyway. Enough about him.

[jorddy]

Ahhgreeed :)
Thanks for your guidance

[Jeremy Bong]

Jeremy has problems with paranoia and a persecution complex.

A Buddhist thread about Tantra got turned into him saying that Tibetans are green lizard people and Tantra should be stopped by all 'Gods' who practice it.

When he started insulting my practices and saying he was going to send his 'Cupid Sons' to remove the 'wicked god', I said 'okay Jeremy, whatever' and unsubscribed from the thread.

Jeremy likes to believe he is the voice of authority because he knows all the 'bad gods' and 'good gods' and he can fight with demons and bring the rain...

Long story short, I learned not to try and match wits with an unarmed opponent. Sad, very sad...but true.

You're wrong again, I represent the right and wrong or cheating or not attend to.

The green lizard is in spirit form if it's true and you can't see it. So your comments is of no ground. I was stabbed by a sword by the God sent from the green lizard. So you can't see you never know about it, as I said your comments is not valid.

I captured the green lizard myself and I opened its clothes then its secret is revealed by me. It's covered up only its two eyes can be seen.

I said something whenever after I understood about it, then I tell others not simply say like you.

You're naive and maybe shortsighted also. I know you're one of the curiosity hunter. Sorry I like to give comments.

[manishk012]

There are many paths in spirituality which doesnot require faith at all.. example is the path of discrimination

[naturesflow]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/angelicrealm/100-16.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/angelicrealm/media/100-16.jpg.html)

[Jeremy Bong]

Hah, thanks Necro. I was just trying to reason with him because I hate his negativity. I come here to be positive and it's annoying to see him jump on my every post with some kind of slander.

I think he's just in the wrong forum. I'm sure he'd meet people that connect with him elsewhere. It seems that he just doesn't relate with spirituality as a philosophy. I mean, this place is called spiritual forums, lol..

I don't think you can any way said something like "I'm in the wrong forum".for you don't have any ground also. I just want you to explain the fact that you do the hypnosis and your answer is nothing. Only it can be the same as no answer. You have only 500+ posts here and not a proof to help others.

[Jeremy Bong]

There are many paths in spirituality which doesnot require faith at all.. example is the path of discrimination

Not all things are following the old path. And my case is a bit special for I never learning any dharma but I can create any life or object in the spiritual realm that match with what you said. Thanks!

[Jeremy Bong]

Jeremy has problems with paranoia and a persecution complex.

A Buddhist thread about Tantra got turned into him saying that Tibetans are green lizard people and Tantra should be stopped by all 'Gods' who practice it.

When he started insulting my practices and saying he was going to send his 'Cupid Sons' to remove the 'wicked god', I said 'okay Jeremy, whatever' and unsubscribed from the thread.

Jeremy likes to believe he is the voice of authority because he knows all the 'bad gods' and 'good gods' and he can fight with demons and bring the rain...

Long story short, I learned not to try and match wits with an unarmed opponent. Sad, very sad...but true.


I have to reply you again about the so call sickness of paranoia or persecution complex. You're a medium but you're not a doctor. May I ask you're graduated from which medical university? I have to remind you unless you are the certified doctor and under certain judgment as qualified doctor than you're able to say what a person has which type of sickness. Or you're in trance state.

When that I wrote "Trantra should be stopped by all 'gods' who practice it"? What I said is tantra is of practice of Yab Yum for its highest practice and this not acceptable. That's child abuse.

And you said, " when I insulting your practice... ...." That's you're sick I ask your permission to heal you.. .....so I sent my Cupid son to help you maybe that's what you said I insulting you. That's a bit out of logic.

For the unsubscribe maybe that's you dislike my help then I can't go on for a number of days. So that means I'm wrong?

My mentor are:Jesus, God Jehovah, Buddha, Old Angel....... .. Can I simply do something without his warning if I did something wrong. Or am I as you said has such sickness? My mentors will not accept what you said.

Today I saw, the sun rises from the west. Quite a funny day.

[Shivani Devi]

Sorry Jeremy, I am a qualified psychologist but not a medical doctor.

If you believe in Jesus and he is your mentor, you should be familiar with the saying "remove the beam from thine own eye before removing the speck from thy brother's eye".

It means to stop criticising the beliefs of others in full accordance with your own, however you also have the right to say whatever you like and express how you feel, but I can see that you jump to bizarre and illogical conclusions about people and things way too quickly without even hearing them out.

"Jeremy thinks this is the way it is and therefore, this is the way it must be because Jeremy is right".

You are still my friend and I still like you, but sometimes you just take it way over the top and call people names and say not nice things. Under any other circumstance, I would report it to staff and everybody (self included) should do it when you say things that hurt and are not nice - I just thought I would get it off my chest and tell you how I feel because I am totally open and honest that way.

[Ground]

Hi there. So, yet another existential crisis thread here....

There are lots of reasons behind my current state of depression, but the one I'm trying to figure out here is my lack of faith in even the most basic concepts of spirituality, like love and the soul.

My question is: For those who have never really experienced anything "spiritual", how do you continue to have faith in this kind of path?
What kind of path?

This imo is the decisive point: a clear view of a specific path and a view that is specific for that path. On that basis corresponding experience will arise.

[Jeremy Bong]

Sorry Jeremy, I am a qualified psychologist but not a medical doctor.

If you believe in Jesus and he is your mentor, you should be familiar with the saying "remove the beam from thine own eye before removing the speck from thy brother's eye".

It means to stop criticising the beliefs of others in full accordance with your own, however you also have the right to say whatever you like and express how you feel, but I can see that you jump to bizarre and illogical conclusions about people and things way too quickly without even hearing them out.

"Jeremy thinks this is the way it is and therefore, this is the way it must be because Jeremy is right".

You are still my friend and I still like you, but sometimes you just take it way over the top and call people names and say not nice things. Under any other circumstance, I would report it to staff and everybody (self included) should do it when you say things that hurt and are not nice - I just thought I would get it off my chest and tell you how I feel because I am totally open and honest that way.

I don't think you're a qualified guy, it's simply if I have what you said about the sickness then without my permission you have to keep it as a secret but you just published here to tell all people. Just show to others your graduate psychology certificate. And even you're what you said, you still can lie here or give any sickness name for me.

So I asked Jesus, and he said, "you can't simply give a sickness name...without... .... No....".

You didn't give any proof that you told jorrdy about me but just get angry about what I call you. When you said something about me, please prepare first for proof but not rote or cut short so that the meaning is changing.

You said, you are my friend then with what logic that at this time you jump in to tell others with no proof. And you said I'm of that sickness how you prove to others about that. I wonder what is your agenda over this action? That mean you support his hypnosis to hypnotize anyone who views his thread.

I tell you, hypnosis is dangerous and not reliable or proved to be not true most of the time and if the operator do certain trick. That's why I want to tell others.

So you just tell others that "who am I? " so what's in your mind? I think everyone can see it.

[muffin]

Getting a bit stuffy in here opens window let's in a breath of fresh air :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggX6tM8AtOY

[jorddy]

Necro, just follow your own words man.

You're getting your precious energy sucked away.

[Jeremy Bong]

Anyone wants to continue with my post welcome but don't be like her saying without any proof. And be care not to say bad things. It's enough proof to the others to judge his hypnosis.

[Baile]

My two cents: healthy spiritual exploration finds the middle ground between the two belief-doctrine extremes of religious emotionalism and spiritual intellectualism. And Jeremy is correct: much of what is discussed on chat sites like this one is a hypnotic kind of spiritual intellectualism. Esoteric philosophies speak in great detail about the hypnotic aspects of knowledge-seeking, and the dangers of getting lost in spiritual illusion. Not that I think it's 'dangerous' per se; I look at it more as the way one learns to distinguish truth from illusion.

[Lynn]

Hello Members

The last thing I want to do is to step into the thread with the "Rules" but I feel that I have to do this to bring things to your attention.

I will do this in other threads as well if it does not stop with a "Few" of you and your actions or should I say lack of interactions in a respectful manor.


Getting a bit stuffy in here opens window let's in a breath of fresh air :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggX6tM8AtOY

Hello Members

I so could not agree MORE here and I am at the wits end with it all honestly get along or "actions" will be taken.

There is NO RIGHT and NO WRONG on a spiritual path. There are many tools that we can have access too that work for some and not for others. This includes hypnosis.

No one on site is a medical DR (even if you hold a degree ) we have no way to prove that. The rules are clear.

Dangerous Practices and Medical Advice: For the safety of our members, the discussion of any practice which may be extremely detrimental to mind, body, or spirit is not permitted. This includes practices such as fasting for long periods of time, sun gazing, taking substances that can harm ones health, etc. Comments that could discourage a member from visiting their doctor or from following their doctor's advice or prescriptions also fall under this. Posts that the staff deem as violations of this rule will be removed or edited and repeating this conduct will result in warnings and possible Disciplinary Action.

You do not have to agree to get along. If you have issues with a member bring it to me or another member of Staff we have a rule about members moderating other members.

Members moderating members: Please do not moderate other members, do not create your own rules in posts, tell other member's where they can post and where they cannot, or correct anyone on their spelling or grammar or presentation (English is not everyone's first language and some people have dyslexia or may have learning difficulties.) If a post is difficult to read please pm a staff member so we can discreetly suggest an edit to the member concerned, or if it's a solid block of text we can insert breaks. If you feel threads are in the wrong section please simply contact a member of staff.


Lynn
SF Admin

[Rayden_Greywolf]

I noticed you mentioned you have depression or did?

I know in mine it was mostly my own resistance to what is that caused me to spiral down and lose faith. Once I started flowing with life and what was in me I found my faith ignited and I actually began a deeper journey of acceptance of life in ways I wasn't accepting.

I am not saying in your comment you mean that your not. More reflected and wanted to offer you this awareness if it helps in any way.

Faith in the spiral or void is about the lack of motivation to push through and lift oneself up and out, because the faith to do so and face what is "up there" head on is scary..We on some level know the old feelings and what they represent from past experience, so it is easier to succumb to the downward spiral and stay close to our centre that way. That is my story by the way. The faith was taking risk and pushing through. "I am willing to face the unknown of what is coming without fully knowing, but with some knowing and have faith anyway" ...

Was just looking back on some of these posts, and this one stuck out to me. At this point in time, I find it's very likely that I'm going through a similar experience as you described. May I ask what lead you to overcoming that resistance?