merging christianity with reincarnation

[nalan]

(Please excuse me if this post is in the wrong place.)

In my teens I became agnostic, sort of. I questioned my Catholic upbringing and couldn't see how a loving God allowed sickness, disease, and the threat of hell. It was that threat alone that made me think Christianity was mind control by fear as motivator. Believe or go to hell!!!

I never stopped believing in God, but I guess I just created my own understanding of him through my experiences. I adhered strongly to the spiritualist church (I live near Casadega (sp?), so that made it really convenient). I valued the people, the messages, the exploration into our existence both physical and spiritual. I learned to channel (sort of), and I began learning of my past lives. To date, I know of at least 7 past lives. But I thoroughly detested the concept of organized religion, so eventually my time at the spiritualist church waned to nothing.

When my son was born, I returned to church because I want him brought up in a community with values that teach about a loving God/force/entity. But as I've sat through the sermons, they hit home. And it wasn't fear of hell that caught my attention. It's how Jesus works through our lives. I was hearing a strong message that I could not deny.

But until now, I didn't see how reincarnation meshed with Christianity. There is a thread (I forgot the name) that was very helpful. I now feel more at peace calling myself a Christian, though I feel a bit hypocritical for still picking and choosing my beliefs.

How many others pick and choose beliefs, or is that pretty much what people do to make sense of their existence?

[Selenphina]

I pick and choose... or more it picks me? One can't help but believe what they believe. But I don't think there's any fault in that. My beliefs can't be summed up in one short discription or religion, but I'm ok with that. I think it should be a more personal thing anyway. It's not easy for a me to believe 100% in Exactly what another person believes, and I can't really help it. I go with what I see some evidence of and add my own faith.

[nalan]

That's about how I go about understanding my spirituality, too.

Trouble is that I'm feeling torn. I feel guilty because I do not subscribe to Jesus as being the one, true way to heaven. That premise is the founding principle of the church I attend (and value!). It's that premise that caused the church to split several years ago (the Episcopalian split).

I even feel like a hypocrite during some of the prayers, so I just don't say them.

But I can't deny what I know to be own truth, either.

I feel like I'm part of a crowd that isn't my crowd because of my "dirty little secret."

[AngelBreeze]

(Please excuse me if this post is in the wrong place.)

In my teens I became agnostic, sort of. I questioned my Catholic upbringing and couldn't see how a loving God allowed sickness, disease, and the threat of hell. It was that threat alone that made me think Christianity was mind control by fear as motivator. Believe or go to hell!!!

I never stopped believing in God, but I guess I just created my own understanding of him through my experiences. I adhered strongly to the spiritualist church (I live near Casadega (sp?), so that made it really convenient). I valued the people, the messages, the exploration into our existence both physical and spiritual. I learned to channel (sort of), and I began learning of my past lives. To date, I know of at least 7 past lives. But I thoroughly detested the concept of organized religion, so eventuWhen my son was born, I returned to church because I want him brought up in a community with values that teach about a loving God/force/entity. But as I've sat through the sermons, they hit home. And it wasn't fear of hell that caught my attention. It's how Jesus works through our lives. I was hearing a strong message that I could not deny. ally my time at the spiritualist church waned to nothing.

When my son was born, I returned to church because I want him brought up in a community with values that teach about a loving God/force/entity. But as I've sat through the sermons, they hit home. And it wasn't fear of hell that caught my attention. It's how Jesus works through our lives. I was hearing a strong message that I could not deny.

But until now, I didn't see how reincarnation meshed with Christianity. There is a thread (I forgot the name) that was very helpful. I now feel more at peace calling myself a Christian, though I feel a bit hypocritical for still picking and choosing my beliefs.

How many others pick and choose beliefs, or is that pretty much what people do to make sense of their existence?

Very warm greetings, nalan!

You ask about the proper place to post. This forum is about Affirmations. However, it appears that you are in the proper place after all, since you have re-AFFIRMED your Christian calling and for that I Congratulate you! And of course, I am sure you are aware of the Biblical teaching that without becoming Born Again, that is, giving one's life to Jesus Christ, one cannot attain Heaven. That's in the Holy Bible.

As for the 'meshing' of Christianity with reincarnation, be assured that there is no such thing! There are some, even here, who have brought forth one website that they feel tends to say that it does, but others who have studied it carefully find that nothing could be further from the truth. There are also references brought up from time to time trying to justify reincarnation as being accepted by a majority of Christians, and they mention the Council at Nicea, and the Fifth Century, etc. as justification for merging the two and even say that references to reincarnation were later removed by Christians, yet there is absolutely no proof that that ever happened. Likewise, there is no proof that Christians ever accepted reincarnation. We have but ONE (1) life and that is the one we are living here and now. That is why we must watch everything we do as it will ultimately affect us as we move on into the Afterlife where we will pick up where we left off here on Earth and continue to refine our spiritual path by learning more and more and being of service there unto others just as we should be doing here.

The Proof Of We Having Only One Life Is In These Three Scriptures:

"And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation." -- HEBREWS 9:27-28 (KJV)

"There is One body, and One Spirit, even as ye are called in One hope of your calling; One Lord, One faith, One baptism, One God and Father of All, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." -- EPHESIANS 4:4-6 (KJV)

"So Man Lieth Down, and Riseth Not: Till the Heavens Be No More, They Shall Not Awake, Nor Be Raised Out Of Their Sleep." -- JOB 14:12 (KJV).

So, I'm very glad that you have realized that the important thing for you to do is as you are doing, returning to Christianity to assure that you and your children will be Saved when they pass on when you and they become Born Again. That is the most loving responsibility that a parent can have, to assure Salvation not only for themselves but for their precious children.

As for your beliefs when you were very young in your teens thinking about how God could allow illness, disease, and Hell, I'm sure you now realize in your adult years that it is not God who sends any of that to a person but that it is the behavior of the person who brings those things unto themselves. God will certainly allow that to happen, using 'tough love', otherwise, how would a person learn from their mistakes? For example, if each time a person would sin and contract an STD from an unclean person, how would they ever learn that it was caused by their bad choices and behavior if they did not come down with the dis-ease and then have to go to the doctor to be cured from it? And of course, that is for dis-eases that are curable. There are a number that are not. So, it all depends on personal human behavior. God does not punish anyone. People bring punishment unto themselves through their own actions and bad judgment which lead them to distance themselves from the spiritual laws of God, thus imperiling and bringing demise unto themselves.

And what some may perceive as 'mind control' by the Christian churches over people, with the threat of Hell, etc., as you put it, is merely a loving effort to awaken one's ability to think clearly and live their life knowing the consequences that could happen if one does not. After all, even a parent teaches their child right from wrong. And that is because both ministers and parents care about your soul and spirit when you pass on as well as while you are in this life. That is why clergy reaches out to people while those who do not care about you would rather advocate a live and let live stance, simply because what does your life mean to them? Nothing! They are not your keepers and they are not going to pass away in your stead and have to answer for your wrongdoing! So, it is good to teach someone the difference between right and wrong as well as the penalties and pitfalls for doing wrong.

When one remains complacent in their thinking, thinking that they are above it all and can just about write their own ticket, that goes very much against Spiritual Law and there are consequences for that way of thinking. The church thus makes an effort to warn people of the Dangers in that way of thinking and for one to "straighten out" and live a good life making healthy spiritual choices instead. But as a defensive mechanism, there are many who would simply give up on religion and unfairly blame the pulpit minister or priest for threatening them with Hell, etc. when in effect, all they are doing is trying to help you become a better person by providing great spiritual food for thought so that you can avoid making grievous errors along the way that will be very costly to you later on.

I am especially proud of you when you say the following:

"When my son was born, I returned to church because I want him brought up in a community with values that teach about a loving God/force/entity. But as I've sat through the sermons, they hit home. And it wasn't fear of hell that caught my attention. It's how Jesus works through our lives. I was hearing a strong message that I could not deny."

Again, Congratulations To You! The message that you heard was indeed Jesus Christ speaking right to your heart and resonating and permeating throughout your entire being! He wants you to know that through Him and With Him you can be Saved and that is the message that indeed cannot be denied! He also wants you to know that He is ever present for you if you but reach out to Him.

I therefore, honor your commitment to return to Christianity and may God, through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, be forever with you to help you and bless you in all the ways possible and to guide you and your family through life with His Omnipresent Light and His Eternal Love!

[Shabda]

scriptures are proof of nothing, they are the writer's opinion, the only way to KNOW is to experience, you cant get knowing from a scripture, that is merely belief...

[nalan]

Angelbreeze,

Thank you for your warm greetings, but I'm trying to understand Christianity and reincarnation as one in my life.

My belief in my past lives is not up for debate.

And I also agree with Shabda. The Bible is important, sacred even. Its lessons, history, teachings, connection with God, all of it matters. But there have been good arguments stating that reincarnation can co-exist with Christianity.

But this thread isn't really about whether reincarnation exists or not; it's about me finding a way to be okay with the fact that I am, literally, picking and choosing what I believe when I am surrounded by good people in a very Christian church.

[AngelBreeze]

That's about how I go about understanding my spirituality, too.

Trouble is that I'm feeling torn. I feel guilty because I do not subscribe to Jesus as being the one, true way to heaven. That premise is the founding principle of the church I attend (and value!). It's that premise that caused the church to split several years ago (the Episcopalian split).

I even feel like a hypocrite during some of the prayers, so I just don't say them.

But I can't deny what I know to be own truth, either.

I feel like I'm part of a crowd that isn't my crowd because of my "dirty little secret."


Warm greetings to you, nalan!

You do know who is causing this rift in your belief of Jesus don't you? The adversary. But his biggest victory is in trying to convince people that he does not exist! That has always been his primary goal! He is ever powerful to instill his lies so that the Truth will be obfuscated by his lies. He also works through those who work along side with him and have chosen to follow him instead of God. But do not listen! You know that without Jesus you cannot be Saved. Embrace your Lord and Savior Now and ask Him to Welcome you back home.

And do not feel like a hypocrite when wanting to pray. Again, the adversary, being an opportunist and a liar, is ever ready to make you feel not worthy to pray for the slightest reason, and if you listen, he has won! Of course you can pray to God! Who tells you that you can't, except the devil because he is God's enemy. And he would like to tempt you through his deceitful ways to believe in him over God. Could you live with that? Could your conscience really accept it? Please think of what you would be doing.

There is still great Love in your heart for Jesus I can plainly see that with your following sentence. And know for that you will be blessed!

"But I can't deny what I know to be own truth, either."

And about your "dirty little secret.", as you call it, dirty little secrets can only stay dirty when a person wants them to stay that way. You know you are empowered through Jesus Christ to clean up that little secret anytime and it will not be 'dirty' anymore! So use the white cloth of Jesus' Truth now to erase the dirt.

Like I said previously in my other post, no one is going to care about your soul or spirit when you pass-on, no one, nalan. Now is the time to make amends with God and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior! Who can guarantee that we would be around tomorrow if we try to put off that very important element for our Salvation to another day.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be Born Again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." -- JOHN 3:3 (KJV)

If you approach Jesus with contrite heart and accept Him as your Lord and Savior and say out loud and believe that He is the Only Begotten Son of God who died and resurrected to Save you and pledge to give your life to Him and amend your ways, you will be Saved this very day! That is free to do and it is Biblical and is truly investing in your life and afterlife!

It costs nothing to Believe and in so believing, you guarantee your Salvation for eternity according to God's Word which is the ultimate Truth in and of itself. The alternative is not a pretty one I assure you but it is your choice to make.

[nalan]

AngelBreeze,
Again, thank you. I do appreciate what you are saying. I'd be more than happy to talk with you about this on pm, but I'd really like this thread to stay focused on my original topic.

[AngelBreeze]

AngelBreeze,
Again, thank you. I do appreciate what you are saying. I'd be more than happy to talk with you about this on pm, but I'd really like this thread to stay focused on my original topic.

Certainly. Be assured that I have no problem with that. However, I have said what I wanted to say inasmuch as you posted to an open forum where anyone could reply and I just wanted to make sure that you were considering all the angles to what you were saying and that you did not do something that you would later regret and end up saying, they told me so -- and it would be too late to do anything about it.

As for Scripture, it is not mere words written by one who did not know what they were saying. It does not require one to try it out or experiment with it. It is the solid Word of God to anyone who truly understands its meaning.

If you have any further questions or whatever you would like to discuss along these lines, you can feel free to PM me on that as well. Thank you.

[Perry J]

The Roman Emperors tortured the early Christians (they called themselves "Followers of the Way" until they abandoned Jesus' true teaching about the God Within and instead confessed total obedience to the Emperor.

I do think humanity's exaggerated fear of authorites was implanted in Humanity here. The Catholic Church has followed the tradition very welll.

When power elites take control of spirituality, the inner truth is always attacked, and we are forced to listen to outer authorities. Materialistic science does exactly the same thing.

In China, even the peaceful meditators who harm nobody, are persecuted by the materialistic regime. They do the same thing as the Catolic Inquisition

Power elites want to be gods themselves, on Earth. They feed on other people's fear. Reincarnation is something that would make you go WITHIN, to get at those memories, maybe lose the fear of the outer elite. Therefore they persecute you. You are a threat to them. The goal of this elite is to disprove the true God and rule with terror.

[Shabda]

The Roman Emperors tortured the early Christians (they called themselves "Followers of the Way" until they abandoned Jesus' true teaching about the God Within and instead confessed total obedience to the Emperor.

I do think humanity's exaggerated fear of authorites was implanted in Humanity here. The Catholic Church has followed the tradition very welll.

When power elites take control of spirituality, the inner truth is always attacked, and we are forced to listen to outer authorities. Materialistic science does exactly the same thing.

In China, even the peaceful meditators who harm nobody, are persecuted by the materialistic regime. They do the same thing as the Catolic Inquisition

Power elites want to be gods themselves, on Earth. They feed on other people's fear. Reincarnation is something that would make you go WITHIN, to get at those memories, maybe lose the fear of the outer elite. Therefore they persecute you. You are a threat to them. The goal of this elite is to disprove the true God and rule with terror.
yes indeed, and the only way to hear the True Word of God, is to go within and hear it for one's self...the way to be spiritually instructed by this Word is the same, within...Rumi knows this...

[nalan]

Then my inner truth that I hear is that BOTH exist. Jesus is Christ and Lord, and I believe in his teachings. Sent from the Master for the same reason all the other masters were sent.

I do not need outside affirmation of my own beliefs. I can believe in Jesus and in reincarnation.

I just wanted to make sure that you were considering all the angles to what you were saying and that you did not do something that you would later regret and end up saying, they told me so -- and it would be too late to do anything about it.

Since I asked you politely to please keep this thread on topic and you chose not to, then here goes.

Fear as motivator will NEVER, EVER make me believe what I know in my heart of hearts to be not my own truth. PERIOD. I am glad that the Inquisitors were brought up in this discussion, and I thank Perry J for doing so. Angelbreeze, resorting to threats never works, even when the flesh is weak.

[Shabda]

there is no such thing as "too late to do anything about it" just as there is no such thing as eternal damnation, Sheol or Hell, is a very temporary thing, not even remotely eternal...

[Zeliar791]

The Roman Emperors tortured the early Christians (they called themselves "Followers of the Way" until they abandoned Jesus' true teaching about the God Within and instead confessed total obedience to the Emperor.

I do think humanity's exaggerated fear of authorites was implanted in Humanity here. The Catholic Church has followed the tradition very welll.

When power elites take control of spirituality, the inner truth is always attacked, and we are forced to listen to outer authorities. Materialistic science does exactly the same thing.

In China, even the peaceful meditators who harm nobody, are persecuted by the materialistic regime. They do the same thing as the Catolic Inquisition

Power elites want to be gods themselves, on Earth. They feed on other people's fear. Reincarnation is something that would make you go WITHIN, to get at those memories, maybe lose the fear of the outer elite. Therefore they persecute you. You are a threat to them. The goal of this elite is to disprove the true God and rule with terror.

Duality... The philosophy of decadence. The whole world seems to adhere to it. I am quite fed up with it. People sell their souls to material possessions out of fear, and forget what is truly important about life. The smaller pleasures in life can be enjoyed once everything is brought back to its proper order. It doesn't seem like people can stop and think for a little bit, instead once they go forward they never seem to stop. Its like this entire world is afflicted with bipolar disorder.

[nalan]

Its like this entire world is afflicted with bipolar disorder.

And god help you if you threaten the duality of the people who would rather be told what to believe than go within.

[Perry J]

I almost thought I was too sinister in my tone here, but you're apparently tougher than so...

When I'm confronted with Mainstream Christianity, this comes up. Religion and spirituality is not the same. Spirituality is the true inner teachings. But this is scary stuff to the Fallen Angels...

Jesus has been put on a pedestal, out of reach for common people. It's considered blasphemy to follow in hos footsteps. Why? His disciples (picked from the common people) followed him. THEY performed miracles, too!
Jesus was NOT the only son of God. Of course we are all sons and daughters of God!
The Christ Consciousness is the Only Son of God! This is confused with the person Jesus.

It's so strange, NOBODY listens to what Jesus actually said. He used parables to make people think for themselves, yet, he is interpreted literally...

[Zeliar791]

And god help you if you threaten the duality of the people who would rather be told what to believe than go within.

It is a good way to end up a pincushion.

[Perry J]

Duality... The philosophy of decadence. The whole world seems to adhere to it. I am quite fed up with it. People sell their souls to material possessions out of fear, and forget what is truly important about life. The smaller pleasures in life can be enjoyed once everything is brought back to its proper order. It doesn't seem like people can stop and think for a little bit, instead once they go forward they never seem to stop. Its like this entire world is afflicted with bipolar disorder.

Duality, yes it is.
It's all about identity. The Fall of Man is the fall from the Absolute down to the duality consciousness. We became separated from our source, and separated from each other. We lost our true sense of identity, and must forever try to find it again, by identifying in all kind of loose stuff, such as our bodies, our work...

The duality consciousness wants the Absolute back, but perverts it, it makes rigid structures (the Catholic Church is he greatest structure in the western world, and the most rigid). It places the Absolute outside of us, calls it "God", or "Scientific Truth", or "Objective Reality" - and makes this to something esotheric, out of reach for the masses...

Because the ego - which is the duality identity - wants to be better than others.
See the Beam in your own Eye? What does it mean? If you can see your own ego, just one honest look at it, it will perish.
That's why the ego hates to go within.

[Zeliar791]

I almost thought I was too sinister in my tone here, but you're apparently tougher than so...

When I'm confronted with Mainstream Christianity, this comes up. Religion and spirituality is not the same. Spirituality is the true inner teachings. But this is scary stuff to the Fallen Angels...

Jesus has been put on a pedestal, out of reach for common people. It's considered blasphemy to follow in hos footsteps. Why? His disciples (picked from the common people) followed him. THEY performed miracles, too!
Jesus was NOT the only son of God. Of course we are all sons and daughters of God!
The Christ Consciousness is the Only Son of God! This is confused with the person Jesus.

It's so strange, NOBODY listens to what Jesus actually said. He used parables to make people think for themselves, yet, he is interpreted literally...

The best way to learn is to learn from example. Books are nothing more then tools. There is no meaning to the surface of things, it is up to us to interpret things as we will.

[nalan]

I almost thought I was too sinister in my tone here, but you're apparently tougher than so...

Is that good or bad? (for me) I t hink it's a compliment.


When I'm confronted with Mainstream Christianity, this comes up. Religion and spirituality is not the same. Spirituality is the true inner teachings. But this is scary stuff to the Fallen Angels...

Jesus has been put on a pedestal, out of reach for common people. It's considered blasphemy to follow in hos footsteps. Why? His disciples (picked from the common people) followed him. THEY performed miracles, too!

Perry J, that makes so much sense. Religion and spirituality are not the same at all. Maybe that is the answer I have been looking for?

EDIT: Did the apostles perform miracles? I can't think of one...but I could be wrong.

No one seems to remember that fact about the apostles.

It's so strange, NOBODY listens to what Jesus actually said. He used parables to make people think for themselves, yet, he is interpreted literally...

Until now, I have always thought that is why Jesus spoke in parables. He wanted people to think for themselves, to discover their own truths.

[pre-dawn]

How many others pick and choose beliefs, or is that pretty much what people do to make sense of their existence?
You can pick a belief system, but once selected, pick and chose is tantamount to discarding centuries if not millenniums of accumulated wisdom and insights.
Essentially you say "I know better than all the people combined who studied and contributed to this belief system since time immemorial."

[nalan]

You can pick a belief system, but once selected, pick and chose is tantamount to discarding centuries if not millenniums of accumulated wisdom and insights.
Essentially you say "I know better than all the people combined who studied and contributed to this belief system since time immemorial."

And what of those whose studies, wisdom, thoughts, and insights were never recorded? Am I discarding them, too? Of course.

No, I'm not saying that I know better; I have never said that. If anything, I am saying and have said that I am trying to understand my existence and my spirituality. Might doesn't mean right.

I don't give in to propaganda.

William Blake...

[daver]

You can pick a belief system, but once selected, pick and chose is tantamount to discarding centuries if not millenniums of accumulated wisdom and insights. Essentially you say "I know better than all the people combined who studied and contributed to this belief system since time immemorial."

There are countless examples of belief systems that were held onto vehemently for centuries by people before someone thought differently and changed the collective conscious. To name just a couple, people thought that the Earth was flat, or that the Earth was the center of the Universe.

[pre-dawn]

There are countless examples of belief systems that were held onto vehemently for centuries by people before someone thought differently and changed the collective conscious. To name just a couple, people thought that the Earth was flat, or that the Earth was the center of the Universe.
That is physics, the belief systems under discussion are meta-physical.
Different rules apply.

[Zeliar791]

Duality, yes it is.
It's all about identity. The Fall of Man is the fall from the Absolute down to the duality consciousness. We became separated from our source, and separated from each other. We lost our true sense of identity, and must forever try to find it again, by identifying in all kind of loose stuff, such as our bodies, our work...

The duality consciousness wants the Absolute back, but perverts it, it makes rigid structures (the Catholic Church is he greatest structure in the western world, and the most rigid). It places the Absolute outside of us, calls it "God", or "Scientific Truth", or "Objective Reality" - and makes this to something esotheric, out of reach for the masses...

Because the ego - which is the duality identity - wants to be better than others.
See the Beam in your own Eye? What does it mean? If you can see your own ego, just one honest look at it, it will perish.
That's why the ego hates to go within.

I would sooner propose the merging of two opposites.

[Shabda]

That is physics, the belief systems under discussion are meta-physical.
Different rules apply.
the world being flat or the center of the universe?? physics?? really? the rules that apply to physics obviously dont apply to either of these belief systems, and didnt even exist when these beliefs were first thought of...

[nalan]

That is physics, the belief systems under discussion are meta-physical.
Different rules apply.

I respectfully disagree. All things, living or not, are made of atoms, energy. Even thoughts/brain activity can be recognized as energy in brain scans.

When we realize how similar the metaphysical is with the physical, then, THEN, amazing "things" will happen that we once thought were out of our physical and mental abilities.

[Zeliar791]

.

I respectfully disagree. All things, living or not, are made of atoms, energy. Even thoughts/brain activity can be recognized as energy in brain scans.

When we realize how similar the metaphysical is with the physical, then, THEN, amazing "things" will happen that we once thought were out of our physical and mental abilities.

This should be obvious. People have a tendency of making things way too complex.

[Perry J]

I would sooner propose the merging of two opposites.

Hegelian dualism?

A thesis, a conflicting anti-thesis, and the synthesis, resulting from the merging...

It looks good on paper... but the desired outcome should be a higher state of consciousness, and that's not the case with Hegelian dualism.
It just rolls on, over and over again... that "merging" stage is not always peaceful.

This is the mindset behind "The End justifies the Means".

[Zeliar791]

Hegelian dualism?

A thesis, a conflicting anti-thesis, and the synthesis, resulting from the merging...

It looks good on paper... but the desired outcome should be a higher state of consciousness, and that's not the case with Hegelian dualism.
It just rolls on, over and over again... that "merging" stage is not always peaceful.

This is the mindset behind "The End justifies the Means".

I prefer to have the liberty of steering my own course through life. Serving others is not my cup of tea.

[athribiristan]

.

I respectfully disagree. All things, living or not, are made of atoms, energy. Even thoughts/brain activity can be recognized as energy in brain scans.

When we realize how similar the metaphysical is with the physical, then, THEN, amazing "things" will happen that we once thought were out of our physical and mental abilities.


Word.

This really is the big one. Its all just vibrations interacting. Once you know this, it all changes.

[Mata Das]

the greatest saints pick and choose (and often are killed for it). Jesus Christ, Gandhi, Shirdi Sai Baba, the first Sikhs etc.
for reincarnation and catholicism you might like to learn about Bede Griffiths. please forgive this suggestion though if you know about him allready.
your servant
Mata Das
p.s. a side note on reincarnation...many hindus and buddhists feel that a persons bad luck is due to past karma. so if a child is horrobly abused then it is the child's fault from something they did in past life. for myself, i had to re-evaluate my views regarding karma.

[Zeliar791]

the greatest saints pick and choose (and often are killed for it). Jesus Christ, Gandhi, Shirdi Sai Baba, the first Sikhs etc.
for reincarnation and catholicism you might like to learn about Bede Griffiths. please forgive this suggestion though if you know about him allready.
your servant
Mata Das
p.s. a side note on reincarnation...many hindus and buddhists feel that a persons bad luck is due to past karma. so if a child is horrobly abused then it is the child's fault from something they did in past life. for myself, i had to re-evaluate my views regarding karma.

I ought to know. I have nearly lost my mind several times trying to take control of my fate. People just don't seem to appreciate my juggling acts.

[forresterc]

This is my first post here! This thread actually made me sign up because I've been spiritually conflicted with this near same issue. I'm a Christian, but I've been taking a class on south Asian art and religion, Hindu and Buddhism, are incredibly important in them.

Now why did this spiritually conflict me? Because i find God through art (mostly music). The human tendency to create objects that represent the world around us seems to me to mimic how God made us in his imagine.

Now my confliction is that mainstream Christianity seems to ignore 2/3 of the population of the earth not being Christian. Many of the people have also searched for the divine with their entire lives, and in mainstream Christianity, they are doomed to hell because they didn't come up with the "right" answer.

I'm still trying to resolve merging Christianity with other beliefs, and my resolution has so far been that these are not other beliefs, just different perspectives. Just like each individual has his own perspective on the world around him, these "beliefs" are different perspectives on God (or alternatively the Divine). I haven't meditated on this idea enough yet, but i believe it has merit. I'll post more once i've done so.

And on physics vs. metaphysics, i agree with Nalan They're the same thing. Physics is the laws of God in the universe. It severely annoys me when people justify their disbelief in God because of science, because science is just man discovering Gods creation. And like science, in our pursuit to understand and know God, we come up with theories, and every once in a while we discover we we're wrong...sorta. We discover something and correct it, and we become less wrong, not more right. Once it was science that the earth was the center of the universe. It wasn't "wrong" to think that, because without telescopes we could not see parallax, and thus the celestial sphere clearly revolved around the earth. Then we thought the universe was just our galaxy, but through more information, we've discovered other galaxies. We constantly learn that our universe is so much more magnificent than our earlier theories stated. I think this is highly reflective of each of our spiritual journeys within ourselves. We come to conclusions, then we discover more and have to re-evaluate ourselves. It isn't that we were wrong beforehand, because we're always wrong, but we continuously become less wrong. If we ever become "right" then our spiritual journey is over.
I think this is what Jesus meant when he said
Luke 11:9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
and
Isaiah 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
(i know Isaiah is not New testament, but Jesus consistently refereed to it because it is the word of God.)
P.S. The book of Isaiah is eerily aware of the division of new and old testament. Look at the number of chapters and the number of books in the bible. There is 66 chapters, the first 39 deal with the sinfulness of Judah, and the last 27 deal with the restoration of Israel. There are 39 books in the old testament and 27 in the new testament.

[nalan]

I'm still trying to resolve merging Christianity with other beliefs, and my resolution has so far been that these are not other beliefs, just different perspectives. Just like each individual has his own perspective on the world around him, these "beliefs" are different perspectives on God (or alternatively the Divine). I haven't meditated on this idea enough yet, but i believe it has merit. I'll post more once i've done so.

I agree that it has merit. It's kind of like separating religion from spirituality. Beliefs are/can be perspectives when one is willing to introspect and thoroughly understand the basic premise. It's rather a choice to perceive...is that what you mean? (I'm not explaining myself well!) :icon_eek:

I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on this.

[forresterc]

I agree that it has merit. It's kind of like separating religion from spirituality. Beliefs are/can be perspectives when one is willing to introspect and thoroughly understand the basic premise.

As i said before, i haven't had a chance to meditate on the idea well enough yet, but i'll try to explain myself better here (because it might take a week to up to a month for me to find something satisfying to share).

Firstly i don't believe in the separation of religion and spirituality, but i believe religion has been perverted by the collected man. Let me clarify that I'm not trying to correct your opinions on religion vs. spirituality, this is just the perspective I've been exploring recently, so i'm just sharing my thoughts. So religion is suppose to be a reflection upon the collective spirituality of a people, but just like man is flawed, so religion is flawed. Also, just like an individual man, religions can only perceive a singular part of the whole when "viewing" God, just like two individuals can see the same object from two different perspectives. Ultimately, without mutual understanding that we are different beings, arguing about what we "see" is pointless because we refuse to consider the universe from the other's perspective.

Now before i continue with my thoughts, being spiritual is more important than being religious. I don't believe a person can be religious before being spiritual in the first place. Ironically i find that the opposite is the norm that people try to be "religious" rather than spiritual, and such they merely operate within another construct created by man with only minimal interaction with the divine because they don't take the time to perceive within themselves. I don't blame anyone for this though, because we're all somewhat lost, and regardless of what i think from my perspective, i don't truly understand where they are at spiritually. I think for most people it's easier to follow the spiritual path laid down by others in religion than take the time to find their own, which is if that is what they want then I should be happy that they are being fulfilled spiritually. For myself though I've tried being Religious (southern baptist Christian) for a while and i thought i was walking down a good path, but then something happened and i had to re-evaluate a lot (and i believe God made this happen to me so that i may grow even more).

It's rather a choice to perceive...is that what you mean? (I'm not explaining myself well!) :icon_eek:


I hope i haven't been long winded so far. I don't believe perceiving is a choice, but it is a choice how we perceive, if that makes sense. Like listening to music, you can be content with a pop music or smooth jazz. You can listen to it in the background and tuning in every once in a while doing your normal stuff. But for some (like me) that is not satisfying, and in order to feel fulfilled, we listen more intently. We are annoyed with music created as a product to be sold, and instead we find our own taste in music. We're satisfied by hearing someone truly try to express themselves and their emotions and thoughts in unique ways that makes them an individual. I myself like to get an album by a band that interests me and give at least one listen through at a time i devote to just that. Put some headphones in, and close my eyes and listen. I believe this reflections are spiritual journeys and our own time to meditate and pray. We can let the divine just hum in the background, or we can take time to listen.

Just like Jesus said, refering to Isaiah
"You have eyes--can't you see? You have ears--can't you hear?' Don't you remember anything at all?" Mark 8:18
and in Isaiah
"You have seen many things, but have paid no attention; your ears are open, but you hear nothing." Isaiah 42:20

I hope this answered your question.
I feel like i've failed to contribute to the thread on reincarnation and Christianity, but i feel like part of the problem is religious beliefs and their relations to each other.

On reincarnation and Christianity, maybe Christianity wants you to focus on the life you have now, instead of living in past lives. I need to meditate on it, because i don't have a belief on reincarnation as of yet.

[nephesh]

I think a lot of people typical pick and choose what they want or maybe it should be say they interrupt it differently. There are some Christians who do Reiki, other energy work, mediation. There are some Christians who say this things are tabooed and the work of Satan. There are Christians who believe in past lifes, while others dont. There are some who think we will be in a soul sleep once we physical die, while others feel we go straight to the otherside/heaven(or hell) upon our passing. Some feel Baptism is a requirement for being saved while others though think its a good idea since Christ did it, dont think one not being baptized will send one to hell as long as they have truly accepted Christ as their lord and savior. Most will bring about biblical Scripture that they feel supports their beliefs.

I guess one just has to follow the path they feel is right/pray on it. If they feel at peace in regards to something. I do think reincarnation exists (and feel I have had many past lifes, I've only looked into 4 ) but I also believe Jesus Christ is God's son and belief in his teachings as well. I feel he died for our sins. I also think there is so much more to our world then the bible tells us. I think that might be because God wanted us to figure some things out on our own.