Is there truly free will when suffering exists?

[in progress]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.

[Shabda]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.
we make the choices that cause our suffering in the first place, and we do that with free will...suffering occurs because there is a Divine principal we have to learn, which is most often displayed by the bad choice we made that caused our suffering in the first place...many believe that there is no purpose to suffering, and that it has no such function to teach us anything, they however, are flat wrong about this...

[lemex]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.


Suffering is a projection of the inner self that has a belief you must suffer. Suffering is brought about by conflicts (emotions) within us. Parts of it are real and parts imagined. What I know of suffering is society teaches we have to suffer. Suffering is an experience and you are told what the experience is. We teach suffering from the beginning of our lives to each other that it actually makes sense. You are taught to feel negative and produce negative thoughts immersed in feelings. Some of this is the power of suggestion and it is within your ability to change. Suffering is the activity of the brain and how it and you see what you think. My greatest suffering is with man because I see sufferer and non-sufferer alike marching in that directed direction even when each may not want to. To begin to move to that different state is to connect with the Divine. See you can move out this negative thinking pattern through practice principles of manifesting. The mind transcends. I hope this makes sense to you, you are on your own path and so is everyone and each is at their own level. And because of this you may actually be more advanced but you do not wish to move on because you must leave others. I think this too causes suffering. These are just some of the things I have come to see more important. Don't confuse purpose with suffering is my advice. Begin to learn when you are right, learn to forgive and give yourself permission to do all things.

[Roselove]

I think free will is debatable, most people on here will say we have it, but I've also encountered some very good psychics who have said either wise. I def think certain events in our lives are fated, in fact I know, I practice astrology I have looked at charts of famous people seen their marriages, deaths, health problems, relationships, struggles all show in their charts.

Based on my research it seems we repeat cycles from childhood, I think once you heal your issues, that karma is completed and you may have some control, I'd like to hope at least, then again certain expierences have shown me otherwise.

Suffering isn't optional, it's a feeling we have in reaction to circumstances we feel are out of our control. This was never a perfect system and throughout time has always been modified and will continue to be. Certian invdividuals actually incarante here to expierence and then report to spirit what needs to be changed (as far as i know) Hopefully things will change, I dont' think self abuse or abuse of others should be condoned in the name of lessons and growth, True growth and understanding from my expierence comes from love, understanding and healing not pain.

[StoneAgeQueen]

We cause our own, and each others suffering.

[Shabda]

but without pain, you wouldnt be able to recognize what love is, so therefore it serves a purpose...many have a wrong understanding of what love is, often confusing attachment for love, and then, through a painful experience of the break up, are able to recognize what love isnt, and in that case their pain has served the purpose of showing them their definition of what love is was wrong, this is the reason for duality, everything exists in relation to its opposite, and we go through many experiences of each opposite which causes one to learn things about those opposites...

[lemex]

We cause our own, and each others suffering.

Great quote and in absolute agreement.

[Roselove]

^tell that to a five year old whose father beats her, childern aren't developed enough to process that kind of trauma properly.

love, light, acceptance etc should be the norm, it would elimanate all our problems.. it's not something we need to learn to recognize

that's all i'm going to say on this topic, logic won't work when your beliefs are set.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Rosewater: tell that to a five year old whose father beats her, childern aren't developed enough to process that kind of trauma properly.

I fully agree with this simply because of the healing I had to do with this body with regards to abuse trauma. The body is not developed enough to process it like Rosewater said. I'm only speaking from experience with the healing work I've done with this body of mine...that originally wasn't mine.

[Shabda]

^tell that to a five year old whose father beats her, childern aren't developed enough to process that kind of trauma properly.

love, light, acceptance etc should be the norm, it would elimanate all our problems.. it's not something we need to learn to recognize

that's all i'm going to say on this topic, logic won't work when your beliefs are set.
are you certain the 5 year old wasnt the father in a past life that beat his child who turned out to be the father in this one?

[Kapitan_Prien]

^ See this is why I don't subscribe to this 'line of thought'. It keeps the cycle going.

From Rethinking Karma (http://beyond-within.com/blog/energy-work/rethinking-karma/):

Belief in Karma Creates Suffering
At its worst, a strong belief in a law of karma can actually generate negative experiences in one’s life. There are many factors that could create a single negative experience – but combined with that belief in karma, one might begin wondering “what I must’ve done to deserve this,” which attaches guilt to the event. This guilt will attract more unpleasantness – and now we’re back to the vicious cycle created by the misguided idea of “deserved suffering (http://beyond-within.com/blog/law-of-attraction/is-suffering-necessary/).” Someone with a habitual victim mentality may well attract a person with sadistic tendencies who will abuse them – because they deserve it? No, because they can. If the targeted person feels guilt on top of their suffering (which is a tactic many abusers use to project the blame away from themselves!) they have only compounded their problem. As we have seen, suffering balances nothing and benefits nobody, because it tends to radiate outward and produce more suffering. Does this sound like an ordeal worth putting yourself through, over a supposed offense you don’t remember committing, that you can’t even verify? Hopefully not!


Another important factor to consider are the true psychopaths – people and entities who most would think have accumulated some heavy karma if anyone has, by deliberately causing others to suffer. However, the existence of this condition throws another monkey wrench into the wheel of karma itself. If someone literally has no conscience, then no amount of karmic backlash is going to give them one, or turn them into anything other than a psychopath. If that person were to hypothetically incarnate again without the psychopathy, their problem is already solved, and the backlash would fall on someone whose fundamental nature is not capable of committing the original offenses, and who has no awareness of having done so in the past. Once again: no balance or divine justice to be found here.


Nothing but a masochistic guilt trip as far as I'm concerned.

[Shabda]

i understand, but differ on that one...

[Roselove]

Yes in some cases I am certain. karma is very different than what most people think, it's not black and white, good and bad based on what i've learned.. something like this could easily happen in the life of someone who is here to learn of their own self worth or to help other abuse victims, they didn't do anything to warrant this type of attack but yet have to expierence it.

As for the cases where the child was an abuser in the past.. does it justify him/her getting abused in this life? wouldn't it be more fair for the father/victim to have gotten justice in that life? And for what reason would the event be placed in the father's past life them? is it just an ongoing cycle? Also from a psychological perpsective no one is born an abuser (unless there is a some type of chemical imbalance), we are shaped by our "growth based" expierences which are often fated then cycles repeat

[in progress]

I've heard recently that karma can be described as tendency. For example, if I was abused as a child then I would have a tendency perhaps to distrust authority figures or maybe I'd have a tendency to abuse my children.

The duality thing, can't understand one without the other. I agree w/ that but then this means I would judge one as more desirable over the other so would choose the one that would create less suffering ultimately. It's like the game of life is rigged to favor one side over the other which smacks of loss of free will, always being driven to less suffering.

[Shabda]

i was beaten as a 5 year old, and i learned and grew from it, and i get along with my father now...

[Gem]

I've heard recently that karma can be described as tendency. For example, if I was abused as a child then I would have a tendency perhaps to distrust authority figures or maybe I'd have a tendency to abuse my children.

The duality thing, can't understand one without the other. I agree w/ that but then this means I would judge one as more desirable over the other so would choose the one that would create less suffering ultimately. It's like the game of life is rigged to favor one side over the other which smacks of loss of free will, always being driven to less suffering.

No point sticking yourself in the eye is there?

[AngelBreeze]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.

Warm greetings, in progress!

If one feels like they are being whipped like cattle, then they must ask themselves, through a good examination of conscience, what they did to deserve it in the first place.

Free Will is a gift given by God to each and everyone of His creations (us). We are allowed to use it as we wish, however there are consequences for the misuse of our free will. And that is simply due to Spiritual Law and the Law of Cause and Effect.

I'm sure you've heard the saying "You Will Reap What You Sow." How very true! We indeed do reap exactly what we sow, 100% of the time. Some call it "karma". But by whatever name you give it, it all means basically the same that the wheel comes back full circle whenever you do a wrong to some one else. It comes back to revisit you and bring you a certain amount of rude "awakening" in the process. By the same token, when you do good to another, that good also comes back to you ten times ten!

So, nothing goes unnoticed in this life. Nothing. Every sound we make, every thought we have, every action we take, is all being recorded in the Book of Life. It will be there to show us what kind of person we were when we pass on during our Life Review.

And yes of course, there are lessons to be learned in this life. That is the whole purpose of we being here, to learn. That did not start yesterday. For it is written that it has always been that way due to God's Law.

If we did not personally enact scenarios whereby we hurt ourselves and/or others, there would be no penalties to pay thus, no lessons would be learned to help us distinguish between the good and the bad and all would be perfect. In this world we are here to experience many things during our lifetime. When we make our transition into the world of spirit, as we All must, we take what we have done and work to refine it forevermore there. We truly have eternity to work on becoming a better person.

If we leave with "bad karma", or having wronged others in thought, word, and deed, we will go to a certain dimension where others of like mind, who are just the same as we with the same basic background and imprint of having done these things are. Conversely, if we were kind, gentle souls, who were above criticism and doing harm to another emotionally, physically, mentally, or spiritually, we will likewise end up in a place that is acclimated to the way we were while on Earth and the things we did while there. And it will be a great relief for many to arrive there knowing it is truly a place more beautiful than we can ever imagine.

And as we continue to refine our spiritual growth thus our personal vibration, we will elevate into increments of finer dimensions. It can, however, take a person hundreds of years if not more to truly ascend to a great place of God's light once they cross over and continue their spiritual journey. It all depends on current actions done in this dimension.

That is why it is always best to do good unto others, as Jesus taught us, and to cause harm to no one. That will assure that since we used our free will in so doing, we would not experience the kind of suffering that our more brutal counterparts will who are without remorse or conscience.

Let us therefore learn our lessons here and now. And learn them well we should. As we are under the ever watchful eye of God in all our actions, thoughts and deeds. We will in essence go to an appointed place due to our free will choices, be they good or bad. And there will be great suffering for many. For others, they will have lived exemplary lives that will be richly rewarded as well.The choice is all yours! Which way will you choose to go?

[in progress]

i was beaten as a 5 year old, and i learned and grew from it, and i get along with my father now...
So the pain motivated you to move in a particular direction so you could lessen it?

[in progress]

Angelbreeze, I understand the "reap what we sow" concept, everything around us is a reflection of us, we define our experiences etc. Again, it seems that the reaping part will drive us in a particular direction, lessening those bad harvests. Reminds me of christianity where you will burn in hell if you don't toe the line.

We are already divine beings and on some level already know and have learned all the lessons. Sometimes I wonder if we go through this simply because we get bored and like to test ourselves to see if we can do it (remember our divine nature).

Gem, I don't understand what you're saying.

The real reason I started this thread was because I was feeling sorry for myself. I was angry about having to work with my anger! Impatient about my impatience, yadda yadda. And then I started thinking about pain and free will. How I couldn't move forward until I worked with it and yet then it seemed I had no true free will in the matter. I have to do it or else I can't move forward. The part that seems confusing though is that the solution is that one needs to become the observer thereby removing themselves from this whole action/reaction cycle (to stop identifying w/ your ego). So if this is the case then where is the necessity to learn lessons from all that stuff? Did that make sense?

[Mountain-Goat]

Is there truly free will when suffering exists?
"Pain happens, but suffering is optional. When pain comes, make use of the experience, but do not wallow in it.
When you accidentally place your finger in a flame, it is supposed to hurt just long enough for you to pull it out.
If you think there is value in keeping it there, you will be a crispy critter. Pain is a minor element of life, unless you are indulging it.
Then it becomes suffering. Get the message and then get on with your life, which is far more about joy than sorrow." - Alan Cohen

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it;
and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

"The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem." - Theodore Rubin
It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.

"By attempting to avoid the responsibility for our own behavior, we are giving away our power to some other individual or organization.
In this way, millions daily attempt to escape from freedom." - M. Scott Peck

"You have the power to control your own destiny.
You may not feel at all comfortable with that, or want to own up to the responsibility it implies, yet it is true nonetheless.
You may complain that there are so many powerful and overwhelming outside forces acting upon you that nothing you do will matter.
Yet everything you do matters to the highest degree in creating your own destiny.
For your destiny is not about what comes to you. It is about who you choose to become. Your destiny is not really about what happens to you.
It is built and fulfilled by the things that you cause to happen, by what you do with the precious life you have.
It happens in every moment, with every choice, with every thought and every action. Always, you are creating your own unique destiny." - Ralph Marston


"We are no longer puppets being manipulated by outside powerful forces; we become the powerful force ourselves. " - Leo Buscaglia

[Shabda]

"Pain happens, but suffering is optional. When pain comes, make use of the experience, but do not wallow in it.
When you accidentally place your finger in a flame, it is supposed to hurt just long enough for you to pull it out.
If you think there is value in keeping it there, you will be a crispy critter. Pain is a minor element of life, unless you are indulging it.
Then it becomes suffering. Get the message and then get on with your life, which is far more about joy than sorrow." - Alan Cohen

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it;
and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

"The problem is not that there are problems. The problem is expecting otherwise and thinking that having problems is a problem." - Theodore Rubin


"By attempting to avoid the responsibility for our own behavior, we are giving away our power to some other individual or organization.
In this way, millions daily attempt to escape from freedom." - M. Scott Peck

"You have the power to control your own destiny.
You may not feel at all comfortable with that, or want to own up to the responsibility it implies, yet it is true nonetheless.
You may complain that there are so many powerful and overwhelming outside forces acting upon you that nothing you do will matter.
Yet everything you do matters to the highest degree in creating your own destiny.
For your destiny is not about what comes to you. It is about who you choose to become. Your destiny is not really about what happens to you.
It is built and fulfilled by the things that you cause to happen, by what you do with the precious life you have.
It happens in every moment, with every choice, with every thought and every action. Always, you are creating your own unique destiny." - Ralph Marston


"We are no longer puppets being manipulated by outside powerful forces; we become the powerful force ourselves. " - Leo Buscaglia





nice quotes~!

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

everything exists with it's polar opposite . heat has cold, pleaure has pain , up has down, but aren't the seeming opposites really aspects of the same thing?. heat is lack of cold, as cold is lack of heat . hate is lack of love as love is lack of hate. each pole needs it's opposite so that we can percieve contrast and the illusion of separation . without contrast how would we know what we were seeing?. how would we know we were evolving ?. how would we know the difference between anything?. the Hermetic Principle of Polarity covers this : "opposites are identical in nature but different in degree".

I don't know the correct answer to the question about free will, but we do have the choice to decide how to percieve what we percieve .

Dar

[Gem]

I've heard recently that karma can be described as tendency. For example, if I was abused as a child then I would have a tendency perhaps to distrust authority figures or maybe I'd have a tendency to abuse my children.

The duality thing, can't understand one without the other. I agree w/ that but then this means I would judge one as more desirable over the other so would choose the one that would create less suffering ultimately. It's like the game of life is rigged to favor one side over the other which smacks of loss of free will, always being driven to less suffering.

Everyone has a tailor made definition of karma, but I guess human behaviour is governed by past experience, thus once bitten twice shy and practice makes perfect.

We have preference, and where prefer ice cream for desert we prefer cow dung on the rose garden and if we switch the scenarios we don't want dung for desert.

Maybe we like to idealize and think oneness isn't dualistic but quite clearly we find things are interdefined by degrees and there is no top and bottom without the between.

A spear in the leg is pain and no-one wants that, no-one sticks a spear in their leg intentionallly, but secular fanatics are known to whip themselves and crack stones on their heads.

I don't know why life is thought to be a game.

Choices are made, decisions taken, people accept or resist, I guess that's free will.

[AngelBreeze]

Angelbreeze, I understand the "reap what we sow" concept, everything around us is a reflection of us, we define our experiences etc. Again, it seems that the reaping part will drive us in a particular direction, lessening those bad harvests. Reminds me of christianity where you will burn in hell if you don't toe the line.

We are already divine beings and on some level already know and have learned all the lessons. Sometimes I wonder if we go through this simply because we get bored and like to test ourselves to see if we can do it (remember our divine nature).

Gem, I don't understand what you're saying.

The real reason I started this thread was because I was feeling sorry for myself. I was angry about having to work with my anger! Impatient about my impatience, yadda yadda. And then I started thinking about pain and free will. How I couldn't move forward until I worked with it and yet then it seemed I had no true free will in the matter. I have to do it or else I can't move forward. The part that seems confusing though is that the solution is that one needs to become the observer thereby removing themselves from this whole action/reaction cycle (to stop identifying w/ your ego). So if this is the case then where is the necessity to learn lessons from all that stuff? Did that make sense?

Greetings 'in progress',

Rather than always thinking in terms of burning in Hell (something that each and every person can in effect, bring upon himself by their own actions) Christianity is the religion based upon Jesus Christ who came to Save us with His Body and Blood, and who died and resurrected and is One in the Holy Trinity as the only begotten Son of God, therefore, the religion, no matter how hard the teachings, is nothing to cast stones at. But I do understand that there are those who turn away from it because it is difficult to accept certain concepts and that which is hard to abide by in Scripture and contained in the religion. Not everyone is cut out to be strong enough to be a Christian actually but they do have their free will to lead them where they want to go, that much is known.

I will disagree with you strongly in that we are Divine beings. We, in and of ourselves are not Divine. Only God, the Diety is Divine. That we, as humans are Divine is an ill-conceived idea that seems pervasive in some circles and designed to empower some but for the wrong reasons apparently. We are, in actuality, Human. Were we Divine, we would be able to ascend into Heaven at will at anytime and be with each of the billions of people on Earth simultaneously, and create life out of nothing before anyone's eyes and feed thousands with a few loaves of bread and few fish, etc. We may, however, be a small "spark" of the Divine, inasmuch as God created ALL of us whether some wish to believe that or not. But when people think of themselves as 'Divine' in and of themselves they think they are above the fray and can do most anything with little or no consequences and I'm afraid that is deceitful thinking at its worst. People need to own up to their own human nature and not try to take the place of God and His Divine nature.

And we could not have learned all of our lessons since we are still incarnate in this world to continue learning and that learning does last for a lifetime. With all due respect, our "nature", again, is Human, not Divine. God is not amused when people would say they are Divine. If you want to know what I mean, look no further than the First and Second Commandments in the Holy Bible, respectively.

[in progress]

AngelBreeze, I was a life long christian until a few years ago. This came about after talking to god one night and surrendering to his will. I had a knowing that night something had shifted and it did. Not long after I had some very sudden and shocking realizations about christianity and left it behind. This happened in moments. My head was spinning. Soon I realized what the body of Christ truly meant. It was about oneness of all that is and the divine nature of every speck of it, including us. The epiphanies kept coming. Kundalini awakening came shortly thereafter. Christians might look upon it as being struck down by the Holy Spirit. It's ironic. You witnessed to me and this was my witness to you.

[God-Like]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.

What we are Is Imprisoned within our own mind.

It Is the analogy of the maze (lol)

You have to free what we are from the ordinary mind.

Anyone got any thoughts on how you escape the ordinary mind?

x daz x

[in progress]

So if we're here on earth to learn lessons then why is the neutral observer and disengaging from ego the answer to ending the cycle? Is it only the ego that says we have to learn lessons?

[in progress]

What we are Is Imprisoned within our own mind.

It Is the analogy of the maze (lol)

You have to free what we are from the ordinary mind.

Anyone got any thoughts on how you escape the ordinary mind?

x daz x
YES! I was reminded of this last night after I'd made the post! Thanks for bringing this up. The answer given was to move from the mind and into the heart center and process everything from there. This somehow seems to involves the neutral observer.

[Emmalevine]

ISuffering isn't optional, it's a feeling we have in reaction to circumstances we feel are out of our control. This was never a perfect system and throughout time has always been modified and will continue to be. Certian invdividuals actually incarante here to expierence and then report to spirit what needs to be changed (as far as i know) Hopefully things will change, I dont' think self abuse or abuse of others should be condoned in the name of lessons and growth, True growth and understanding from my expierence comes from love, understanding and healing not pain.
I completely agree with this. I get very frustrated when I hear beliefs like all human suffering is a choice. I accept the notion that some people create their own pain and drama and feed off it, thus causing their suffering, but millions of others are living in difficult situations through no fault of their own. We can choose our mindsets to some extent but it doesn't mean that we choose to suffer when situations are incredibly painful. Many children suffer through the hands of their parents, do they have a choice?

[psychoslice]

What we are Is Imprisoned within our own mind.

It Is the analogy of the maze (lol)

You have to free what we are from the ordinary mind.

Anyone got any thoughts on how you escape the ordinary mind?

x daz x
Who is going to escape the ordinary mind, the mind ?, if not the mind then who ?.

[Gauss]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.

In Buddhism it is said human life is a long suffering to pay off karma from previous wrongdoing, hence enabling one to go back home to heaven if one cultivates well. As one gets rid of desires and emotions one generates less and less karma in daily life and can pay off the debts more quickly.

[God-Like]

YES! I was reminded of this last night after I'd made the post! Thanks for bringing this up. The answer given was to move from the mind and into the heart center and process everything from there. This somehow seems to involves the neutral observer.
Hi In progress

My understandings are that the sufferings of our soul will always be - whilst we remain rooted within the ordinary mind. For within the ordinary mind lay’s the weaknesses and desires of the flesh and our attachments to them. Whilst this pattern continues the soul will continue to be a slave to the lower mind.

The soul has “no free will” In this case because It Is In essence and to choose your words “the neutral observer”. The soul Is the prisoner an Innocent bystander watching the ordinary mind take a hold over our essence.

Our soul wants to merge back Into the ocean of what we are. The delay In this Is a suffering unto It’s self but what the Individual fails to realize Is that It Is only the Individual that keeps this from being so.

x daz x

[God-Like]

Who is going to escape the ordinary mind, the mind ?, if not the mind then who ?.

Hi Windy

The Individual soul needs to escape or What we are within mind needs to escape. We are not the mind. What we are exists within mind.

x daz x

[psychoslice]

Hi Windy

The Individual soul needs to escape or What we are within mind needs to escape. We are not the mind. What we are exists within mind.

x daz x
Windy, lol, yea I see it different than you, there is only Being, as soon as we believe we are separate as a soul or whatever, we are then caught in duality. The so called soul is not septate from pure Source, there is only the Source, the so called soul only seems to exist because the mind believes it to be true, but the mind is also pure Source and the belief is just pure Source, the belief is an illusion as everything else is but all of pure Source. The Realization that all is pure Source does away with all of these games of beliefs, that are just arising in pure Being.

[God-Like]

Windy, lol, yea I see it different than you, there is only Being, as soon as we believe we are separate as a soul or whatever, we are then caught in duality. The so called soul is not septate from pure Source, there is only the Source, the so called soul only seems to exist because the mind believes it to be true, but the mind is also pure Source and the belief is just pure Source, the belief is an illusion as everything else is but all of pure Source. The Realization that all is pure Source does away with all of these games of beliefs, that are just arising in pure Being.

there is only Being,

Yer I agree It cannot be any other way, we are being right now.

as soon as we believe we are separate as a soul or whatever, we are then caught in duality.

Yes but If an individual believes that they are not separate from source - It doesn’t automatically project them beyond duality. The ordinary mind keeps them within this experience until It doesn’t.

The so called soul is not septate from pure Source, there is only the Source

I agree but the mind has a hold on the soul through our attachments. How does one detach from the flesh and the alluring material pleasures? These being the source of attachment and source of emotional mental spiritual Imprisonment.

What Is keeping you from total dissolvement In to the state that Is beyond mind windy?

I would say It would be that same or similar ordinary mind traits that bind and Imprison the majorities..

You have escaped the ordinary mind before.. Whats keeping you In mind?

x daz x

[psychoslice]

God-Like: I agree but the mind has a hold on the soul through our attachments. How does one detach from the flesh and the alluring material pleasures? These being the source of attachment and source of emotional mental spiritual Imprisonment.

What Is keeping you from total dissolvement In to the state that Is beyond mind windy?

I would say It would be that same or similar ordinary mind traits that bind and Imprison the majorities..

You have escaped the ordinary mind before.. Whats keeping you In mind?

Psychoslice: There is no one to be detach from the flesh, we are not the flesh, its just a belief that you hold. There is no imprisonment, there's no one to be imprisoned.
I am pure Being, I AM beyond, I thought you worked that out long ago lol.
There is no beliefs that are held onto in this apparent mind body, no soul, no karma, nothing. Thanks dazzel.

[God-Like]

God-Like: I agree but the mind has a hold on the soul through our attachments. How does one detach from the flesh and the alluring material pleasures? These being the source of attachment and source of emotional mental spiritual Imprisonment.

What Is keeping you from total dissolvement In to the state that Is beyond mind windy?

I would say It would be that same or similar ordinary mind traits that bind and Imprison the majorities..

You have escaped the ordinary mind before.. Whats keeping you In mind?

Psychoslice: There is no one to be detach from the flesh, we are not the flesh, its just a belief that you hold. There is no imprisonment, there's no one to be imprisoned.
I am pure Being, I AM beyond, I thought you worked that out long ago lol.
There is no beliefs that are held onto in this apparent mind body, no soul, no karma, nothing. Thanks dazzel.
There is no one to be detach from the flesh, we are not the flesh, its just a belief that you hold.

I agree.

It's the Individual's false Identities that are contained within mind and belief, what I have stated "tho" Is that It Is the soul / what we are that Is Imprisoned within mind. I haven't stated that what we are Is the flesh. It Is not a belief that I hold.

There is no imprisonment, there's no one to be imprisoned.

As mentioned within mind there Is entrapment. If there Is no Individual trapped within mind then why Isn't everybody God-Realized? Self-Realized? Why are there Individuals that believe that what they are Is the flesh In that case? It's because their Individual soul essence Is Imprisoned within the ordinary thinking mind and whilst that Is so - One cannot realize what they are.

Do you see that we are therefore trapped / Imprisoned within the ordinary mind / maya?

The fact that anybody visits SF or eats etc, 'IS' because there 'IS' some Identity to that there IS somebody here to type posts and their IS somebody present to eat burgers.

It matters not If It Is an illusion. The Importance lies within the mind and the states that go beyond the person that eats and types..

thanks Windy

x dazzle x

[7luminaries]

man says to woman...I wonder if you love me enough...and I wonder if you love me too much...

I wonder if you will be able to make progress on your own...and I wonder if you will run away and forget me...

I wonder about the wondrous...I wonder about the not-so-wondrous...

woman says to man...you wonder too much, you wonderful being...just come here & kiss me...then there is no more wondering...at least for a moment or two..

did this help? :hug3:
LOL...


7L

[God-Like]

man says to woman...I wonder if you love me enough...and I wonder if you love me too much...

I wonder if you will be able to make progress on your own...and I wonder if you will run away and forget me...

I wonder about the wondrous...I wonder about the not-so-wondrous...

woman says to man...you wonder too much, you wonderful being...just come here & kiss me...then there is no more wondering...at least for a moment or two..

did this help? :hug3:
LOL...


7L

did this help?

I am not sure I am still wondering..

Kiss me again It may help :redface:

x daz x

[7luminaries]

did this help?

I am not sure I am still wondering..

Kiss me again It may help :redface:

x daz x

:icon_eek: not sure...LOL...I am falling down on the job...

Come here so I can tend to this properly...:hug3:
If you can still remember your name then I have failed..
...& must try, try, try again :redface:

[God-Like]

:icon_eek: not sure...LOL...I am falling down on the job...

Come here so I can tend to this properly...:hug3:
If you can still remember your name then I have failed..
...& must try, try, try again :redface:

Oh la la :smile:

I have come over a bit faint.. hehe hehe :love5:

Is It hot In here or Is It just me?

Who Am I again - excuse the pun.

Yep must of worked then..

x andy g x

[7luminaries]

:hug3: LOL...it's just you...you're v hot...
actually...I'm feeling a bit flushed myself...

Who are you?, you say?
Ah yes...my work here is done...

What I mean is...
We can say this is an example of how the desires of men (viewed as a form of suffering in themselves) can be used to elevate...or rather clear the mind...of ego...allowing for awareness of the pure Stillness, the One...

This perspective doesn't deny the existence of either free will or suffering/desire...rather that both do and will exist simultaneously...but that our free will can be used in service of our spiritual path, and not at the expense of the material (body, desires)...but as a means to refining and elevating them.

:hug: love & light...
peace & blessings,
7L

[LaMont Cranston]

Suffering exists in the world, and, most likely, it is going to continue to exist. However, we are the ones who decide how we feel about that suffering and what we intend to do, if anything, about it. Let's face it, none of us, by ourselves, are going to put an end to the miseries that exist in regard to the way that human beings treat others. We are totally in control of how we are going to live our lives and treat others. That means we have free will.

[Gauss]

In my humble opinion there is truly free will for human beings.

BUT if one chooses to do bad deeds going against the characteristics of the universe(Truth-Compassion-Forbearance) one will be forced to loose sooner or later. Some get retribution in this lifetime and others after this lifetime.

All the luck that a person has is due to his accumulated virtue from previous lifetimes.

If not know after death. A lifetime is but a blink of the eye in the long history of your main primordial spirit. So I try to cherish my time and become a better person and pay back as many karmic debts as possible.

[Gem]

Suffering exists in the world, and, most likely, it is going to continue to exist. However, we are the ones who decide how we feel about that suffering and what we intend to do, if anything, about it. Let's face it, none of us, by ourselves, are going to put an end to the miseries that exist in regard to the way that human beings treat others. We are totally in control of how we are going to live our lives and treat others. That means we have free will.

You might feel as though you are in control but it's quite plain to see people have little to no control over how they live or treat others.... but I understand affluence can make it appear to be that way.

[Verunia]

Suffering can feel good. It's not always a horrid thing. A spiritual suffering, at least.

If someone's beating me with a baseball bat then I can't say the same. My point is that there are all kinds of suffering and we do not choose all of them. Some people are born right into a situation that can give them nothing except suffering, granted they haven't learned there's a bright side to life. So it's not a black and white issue.

[sound]

Suffering can feel good. It's not always a horrid thing. A spiritual suffering, at least.

If someone's beating me with a baseball bat then I can't say the same. My point is that there are all kinds of suffering and we do not choose all of them. Some people are born right into a situation that can give them nothing except suffering, granted they haven't learned there's a bright side to life. So it's not a black and white issue.

Is it the suffering that is good though Verunia or is it the experience once the suffering has ceased. My daughter explained to me once when i expressed my dislike for the music she was playing ... 'Just savor the peace that you experience when it stops' lol ...

[Gauss]

Suffering can feel good. It's not always a horrid thing. A spiritual suffering, at least.

If someone's beating me with a baseball bat then I can't say the same. My point is that there are all kinds of suffering and we do not choose all of them. Some people are born right into a situation that can give them nothing except suffering, granted they haven't learned there's a bright side to life. So it's not a black and white issue.

Actually when I started double Lotus meditation I felt it was terrible because of the pain I suffered. After 3-4 months the situation is different, when the pain comes I think: "So much karma is being transformed into virtue, this is a great deal"...

And afterwards one feels cleansed. Just like after a heavy flu, after one had been bedridden for a week and gets back to work, one has virtue again and it goes smootly again...

Virtue-karma balance is something central to everyone, although few notice it. The universe will finally balance you no matter what you want right now.

[7luminaries]

Is it the suffering that is good though Verunia or is it the experience once the suffering has ceased. My daughter explained to me once when i expressed my dislike for the music she was playing ... 'Just savor the peace that you experience when it stops' lol ...

LOL...there you go...

Gem and Verunia do make a point...there is suffering...sometimes it appears differently after the fact in light of the soul's refinement and growth...(it was horrid but I had to go through it to get past it, or make peace with it). Cancer victims who survive often say it was their greatest gift (of the spirit not the body), as they came to truly know themselves and to love life and others far more deeply.

and then there's suffering that we inflict on one another and there seems to be no goodness in it, like war and similar atrocities. Here the only supports we have ...the only "things" that are real...are one another, and our own internal resouces...and the strength we draw from God/One/Great Spirit.

I think war and such can teach us only about the importance of life, of love and peace, and of living in the moment...though it's very hard to see the lessons when you are experiencing so much loss.

In the end, the only thing we can truly choose is how we respond, and how much love we give. It reminds me again, Gem, of the scene from V for Vendetta, where Evey reads the open letter from another prisoner that inspired V to survive...

Just reading it, I am so inspired...



Our integrity sells for so little, but it is all we really have. It is the very last inch of us, but within that inch, we are free.
I shall die here. Every inch of me will perish. Every inch but one. An inch... It is small, and fragile, and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us. I hope that, whoever you are, you escape this place. I hope that the world turns and things get better. But I hope most of all that you understand that even though I will never meet you, laugh with you, cry with you, or kiss you, I love you. With all my heart, I love you.
Peace,
7L

[Lisa]

It seems as if suffering is a whip to herd us like cattle in a certain direction.

I could suffer from this statement.

[Baldr44]

are you certain the 5 year old wasnt the father in a past life that beat his child who turned out to be the father in this one?
Very good points all around. We do have free will otherwise we would be like robots controlled by some unknown entity. I believe that we make choices long before we are incarnated, we set up road signs to help us on our path. However, we can certainly deviate from our path by using our free will. Once you pass back into the nonphysical, you will have a opportunity to observe where you went right or wrong. There is no punishment. It is difficult to see when we view suffering through our human eyes. Nothing happens without a reason. As stated perhaps the 5 year old had this planned.

[Chrysaetos]

are you certain the 5 year old wasnt the father in a past life that beat his child who turned out to be the father in this one?This perspective here is scary and leads to moral relativism.
It can get so profound that victims and perpetrators of crime become nothing more than ''people working through their personal issues.''

--
Anyways, without pain, would we be able to appreciate the wonders and beauty in life? Some people can't feel pain (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fen.wikipedia.org%252525 2Fwiki%2525252FCongenital_insensitivity_to_pain).

[Shabda]

This perspective here is scary and leads to moral relativism.
It can get so profound that victims and perpetrators of crime become nothing more than ''people working through their personal issues.''

--
Anyways, without pain, would we be able to appreciate the wonders and beauty in life? Some people can't feel pain (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fen.wikipedia .org%252525252Fwiki%252525252FCongenital_insensiti vity_to_pain).
that is YOUR point of view, and i find that far more scary...

[Chrysaetos]

that is YOUR point of view, and i find that far more scary...What's so scary about it?
Does society has to accept every rapist, paedophile, murderer, and torturer? Accept them as just ''having their bad day''..?

Not in my book. These people have to be dealt with accordingly.

[lemex]

Very good points all around. We do have free will otherwise we would be like robots controlled by some unknown entity. I believe that we make choices long before we are incarnated, we set up road signs to help us on our path. However, we can certainly deviate from our path by using our free will. Once you pass back into the nonphysical, you will have a opportunity to observe where you went right or wrong. There is no punishment. It is difficult to see when we view suffering through our human eyes. Nothing happens without a reason. As stated perhaps the 5 year old had this planned.
I keep seeing problems with what we've said as a group. I don't know if you see it. I keep seeing consciously avoiding saying as a "whole" what needs to be said and if you have not realized this yet when we continue doing this it only leads to continuation. Some people are really have a problem saying ..... no.

Sometimes we're so close to having major agreements I could almost feel it then felt us pull back to rationalizing so we didn't have to say anything.

Like somethings we put karma in the discussion and then pulled it out the answers because we don't like where it's leading or talk about this mythical plan and then pull away again cause you don't like it. I want to keep it simple. The introduction of the 5 year old is such an important observation "given to us" that we are having trouble with it.

First, it's nonsense to think the 5 year old is part this plan. There is no plan like this. Here is a question for those just accept this stuff blindly and to those who think they don't.

If you feel it's not right that the 5 year is right but are told it is should you be able to say No. Many of us don't seem to understand that spiritually what we are talking about is learning to say no. And if you cannot how can you expect others to.

You don't have to do things just because.... Listen, I am going to say this as clearly as possible. The abuser is this case is not karma acting out, here is a case of causing pain not karma. If for some reason you think it is, do you have a right (as far as you see it) to say no I won't. This is the single most problematic I see with spiritual people, it is you spiritually rationalize what's happening. I see it and I don't know if you see it as much as it happens.

Here is another thing to think about. Everyone here in their thinking process has no problem with the adult being guilty but everyone is having an opposite problem with the 5 year old. In this karma or planned philosophy they are suppose to be black and white when they should be synonymous. What about the abuser when they we're 5. Let be clear the adult is hurting another person and this person will carry that forward. It and this should not happen and the adult should not have done it. Not only are you talking about the pain the adult give but you totally ignore the immeasurable pain of that the adult must feel. It is nothing but a cycle of people hurting people. We are seeing cycles of past abuse. It amazes me, people can see things happening knowing what will happen but still continue doing them. Don't you think in way if you have no answer we're acting that way.

We are talking about something very negative but you feel you change it by punishment don't you. I encourage everyone to reread all the threads because there were some really good responses that are so close that we cut them off. I wish I had more time to write and finish up some thoughts and I don't mean to insult anyone, but I am going to challenge you... decide, make a decision about it, quit thinking in terms of everyone else.

[Shabda]

What's so scary about it?
Does society has to accept every rapist, paedophile, murderer, and torturer? Accept them as just ''having their bad day''..?

Not in my book. These people have to be dealt with accordingly.
what's scary is that somehow you assume my comment has to be taken ths way, and you assume MUCH, get out of that habit, youll do far better, and who are you to say how ANY must be dealt with?? thats right, you can have your opinion, but thats all it will ever be, and as far as any "moral relativism" that also is all YOURS, not mine....dont misdirect your own qualities to others, in doing so youre being much less than honest with yourself...

[Chrysaetos]

what's scary is that somehow you assume my comment has to be taken ths way, and you assume MUCH, get out of that habit, youll do far better, and who are you to say how ANY must be dealt with?? thats right, you can have your opinion, but thats all it will ever be, and as far as any "moral relativism" that also is all YOURS, not mine....dont misdirect your own qualities to others, in doing so youre being much less than honest with yourself...Moral relativism is what it seemed to be. And I am no God, Shabda.. I can't understand posts perfectly and without error.

To see suffering as a lesson to learn or payback can justify the existence of unnecessary suffering. An example is the existence of the lower castes in India, and the Untouchables. (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252525252Fwiki%252 52525252FDalit)

You have explained yourself above which I appreciate (in contrast to just telling me my view is scary).

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

perspective has a lot to do with how we perciece things , how one person can see the same thing very differently depending on where they are. judgement systems play heavily into our perceptions too. in a 'perfect world' all beings are aware and honor the sovereigny of other beings, and one can assume that means not deliberately harming each other . ok, that's not where we are yet collectively, but some of us can see that there are ways of being that are froma perspective of not judging 'good and bad' the same old fashioned way we always have, or how the world teaches us too. I have a much different perspective than I used to ; everything bad that I had to go through to get where I am is a piece of my puzzle and it was all valuable . I wouldn't want any of it to not have happened because it was all part of my dharma , my individual path ; it's all part of my wholeness.

When were still operating in duality of course we see good and bad , right and wrong , and within the worldly context those are real . pain hurts, people are bad, what goes around comes around, etc., but from a different perspective these all have a different place, they are different pieces in a different puzzle . sovereignty gives us free will, no doubt about it , and understanding of our sovereignty gives us a different view of the world. transcending the old perspective to see how all things fit together and ultimetely serve their purpose may be seen as rationalization by some but that is an old perspective . of course ****** people are doing ****** things in the world , when we look at everything the normal way . that's easy .
not so easy to come to terms with the reality that nothing we do here matters much in the bigger picture , that our lives are drops in the ocean of consciousness . the beauty is that all is proceeding by the force of grace and overall we are evolving towards our true nature and maybe, eventually, we will approach something like collective enlightenment , and universal respect and appreciation of everyone's sovereignty . to think that an expaned perspective like this is rationalizing a smaller aspect of our existence here ...well, if you want to do that, to operate from there, fine, but spirituality is not about that for me, it's about the transcending and expanding and accepting of our wholeness, a bigger picture , and not judging everything according to conventional intellectual or moral standards .
it is not the nature of self aware beings to cause others to 'suffer' . problem is that the world isn't full of self aware beings just now.

Dar

[Miss Hepburn]

Abraham-Hicks says:
You are so free you can make yourself miserable.
:wink:

[Verunia]

Virtue-karma balance is something central to everyone, although few notice it. The universe will finally balance you no matter what you want right now.

I agree with you on that, good point.

[Shabda]

Moral relativism is what it seemed to be. And I am no God, Shabda.. I can't understand posts perfectly and without error.

To see suffering as a lesson to learn or payback can justify the existence of unnecessary suffering. An example is the existence of the lower castes in India, and the Untouchables. (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252Fvb%2525252 525252Fredir.php%2525252525253Flink%2525252525253D http%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%25252525252 5252Fen.wikipedia.org%252525252525252Fwiki%2525252 52525252FDalit)

You have explained yourself above which I appreciate (in contrast to just telling me my view is scary). then be not scared, no matter what i said, im not scared either, no need for fear in any of this, your comments or views didnt really scare me, it was just a conversation point, a trade of ideas...btw, im no God either...

[sound]

...there is suffering...sometimes it appears differently after the fact in light of the soul's refinement and growth...(it was horrid but I had to go through it to get past it, or make peace with it).


Most definitely and there is no denial that suffering exists ... as the saying goes ... 'If suffering teaches us not to suffer then that is its purpose' ...

[Baldr44]

I keep seeing problems with what we've said as a group. I don't know if you see it. I keep seeing consciously avoiding saying as a "whole" what needs to be said and if you have not realized this yet when we continue doing this it only leads to continuation. Some people are really have a problem saying ..... no.

Sometimes we're so close to having major agreements I could almost feel it then felt us pull back to rationalizing so we didn't have to say anything.

Like somethings we put karma in the discussion and then pulled it out the answers because we don't like where it's leading or talk about this mythical plan and then pull away again cause you don't like it. I want to keep it simple. The introduction of the 5 year old is such an important observation "given to us" that we are having trouble with it.

First, it's nonsense to think the 5 year old is part this plan. There is no plan like this. Here is a question for those just accept this stuff blindly and to those who think they don't.

If you feel it's not right that the 5 year is right but are told it is should you be able to say No. Many of us don't seem to understand that spiritually what we are talking about is learning to say no. And if you cannot how can you expect others to.

You don't have to do things just because.... Listen, I am going to say this as clearly as possible. The abuser is this case is not karma acting out, here is a case of causing pain not karma. If for some reason you think it is, do you have a right (as far as you see it) to say no I won't. This is the single most problematic I see with spiritual people, it is you spiritually rationalize what's happening. I see it and I don't know if you see it as much as it happens.

Here is another thing to think about. Everyone here in their thinking process has no problem with the adult being guilty but everyone is having an opposite problem with the 5 year old. In this karma or planned philosophy they are suppose to be black and white when they should be synonymous. What about the abuser when they we're 5. Let be clear the adult is hurting another person and this person will carry that forward. It and this should not happen and the adult should not have done it. Not only are you talking about the pain the adult give but you totally ignore the immeasurable pain of that the adult must feel. It is nothing but a cycle of people hurting people. We are seeing cycles of past abuse. It amazes me, people can see things happening knowing what will happen but still continue doing them. Don't you think in way if you have no answer we're acting that way.

We are talking about something very negative but you feel you change it by punishment don't you. I encourage everyone to reread all the threads because there were some really good responses that are so close that we cut them off. I wish I had more time to write and finish up some thoughts and I don't mean to insult anyone, but I am going to challenge you... decide, make a decision about it, quit thinking in terms of everyone else.
Have you read any of the Seth books? In them it is clear that we chose our next incarnation, we set it up from parents to friends from our consciousness group. One of Seth's incarnations was his choice to be a woman with several children and very poor. As he had several life experiences of being wealthy, he wanted to understand what it would like to be destitute. He/she couldn't feed her children, they had no home and each of the children had different fathers.

This will be the strange part as he (Seth) just told me last week that he has had 48, give or take, life experiences. He visits on ocassion and speaks through my wife. Not exactly chaneled but speaks through her. My wifes guide and he are old friends. So we do get a choice of what we want to experience, can we mess it up, certainly by using that old free will thing, not listening to your guide(s) or just plain missing the road signs.

[Mountain-Goat]

nice quotes~!
~nods~ .

[lemex]

Have you read any of the Seth books? In them it is clear that we chose our next incarnation, we set it up from parents to friends from our consciousness group. One of Seth's incarnations was his choice to be a woman with several children and very poor. As he had several life experiences of being wealthy, he wanted to understand what it would like to be destitute. He/she couldn't feed her children, they had no home and each of the children had different fathers.

This will be the strange part as he (Seth) just told me last week that he has had 48, give or take, life experiences. He visits on ocassion and speaks through my wife. Not exactly chaneled but speaks through her. My wifes guide and he are old friends. So we do get a choice of what we want to experience, can we mess it up, certainly by using that old free will thing, not listening to your guide(s) or just plain missing the road signs.

Thank you Baldrr for the information and I respect it. I've heard about this and spoken to a friend on this long ago. In this go around I'm not sure I can rightfully agree. I doubt I'll ever find time to read Seth. I'm currently reading David Hawkins and am on my 2nd reading and probably with a few more times then it's reflection time. I doubt I'll live long enough to get past him, time is so short. God, if only we could choose the right knowledge the first time....lol.

Your right, experience may be as hard a road as any religion's hell. Right now, I agree with the verse from the bible that talks about the sins of the father carried forward for multiple generations. I think it's more correct as I see it. It would be better to say sins carried forward. Change the word sins and now negativity is carried forward. There is a negative force and this negativity is carried forward.

This is a problem with the import of experience, that one (knowingly) carries negativity forward. I don't have a problem with the idea of the adult and the child as one if it ended with the child. But through our relationship and interaction as people it then carries into others lives like a river that ripples that affects more then the 2 that draws others into their lives who would not wish to be part of their experience. This says every soul before returning knows every possible interaction. However, I do not give either that right. I must be emphatic on this.

Rosewater said something a while back that I believe. I'm sure many don't believe it because it means changing something in us. I believe Rose said "it doesn't have to be that way". She is right. This is one of my most fundamental beliefs and I say it all the time. And every person I've ever said this to says I sorry it must be and you have to accept reality. We manifest this experience.

Personally I don't know why Seth might wish to choose a life experience the sane might wish to avoid or choose an experience we see negative (doing wrong) but I also understand how things change. I understand for instance many people wish to experience happiness. A person can't move forward and must experience it so that they experience it, only in this way can they know what that experience is and what it is not. From my own experience I can see that. From experience I think concerning free-will it's ok to make the choice free-will leads to, the best choice.

[lemex]

sorry double post... Universe must know how strongly I feel on this :wink:

[Kapitan_Prien]

I had a thought today on this regarding the belief of Karma...

It went something along the lines of not having this belief imposed upon me and therefore I will not live my life as though it is a fact.

After having that 'ah ha' moment...I felt even more empowered. :D

[7luminaries]

lemex and kap...these are my thoughts...there is a ripple effect and choosing experiences...there is karma...but I also believe karma can be tranformed and transmuted...I think often this aspect is overlooked in discussions of karma, and yet in many ways it's the most important one...

I believe karma can be and is transmuted every moment...

with love
by changing ourselves and
by the effect our presence and our actions have on others.From a certain perspective...everything is known...but at the same time, everything is possible -- both are true -- and where everything is possible, that's where we can write the story of our lives.

There is a constant interaction...which makes all outcomes theoretically unknown. We are the intervening variables...do we alleviate suffering that we see, because some will always be apparent (even blatant)...? Or do we ignore...?

We may be interfering with their karma on some level, but it is a human mandate to alleviate suffering if we can...and perhaps that karma is wholly transformed with the love and concern that has been applied...moreover, they have given us a great gift if we chose to accept it.

I usually assume that whatever lessons we are here to learn are learnt much more thoroughly through the eyes of love...

...and so I'm one that says alleviating suffering (or attempting to do so) is always ok...above all it is the love that you give that is most important...so I feel that love has a universal karmic transmuting effect...turning all to the good, in time...

peace & blessings,
7L

[Kapitan_Prien]

Hey 7L,

You bring up the variables...which is what the article that I like mentions too - it states that 'Karma' is based upon 'cause and effect' but as it states in the article:

Karma relies on the so-called “law of causality” – that every cause has a predictable effect. Therein lies a fatal flaw: there is no such law; as quantum physics is increasingly showing us, reality simply does not behave this way. We live in a universe of probabilities, not absolutes.

It goes on further with this...

If I haven’t lost you yet with all the quasi-algebra – the plot thickens even more when we consider that anything that can be described as “karmic” takes place within the context of relationships and choices made between individuals. This introduces free-will into the equation – which, by definition, makes all outcomes even more unpredictable by definition. We live in a free will zone, where a broadly diverse cast of characters (some with more character than others) all coexist with the same freedom to do as they please within the limits of what is physically possible. If I walk outside right now and punch the first person I see, there are many possibilities as to what happens next. They could hit me back; they could press charges; they could pull out a gun and blow me away; they could run away. The outcome depends almost solely on the choices of the other person, and most likely will not be in any sense “equal” to my original action. To say that I might receive the backlash in some other lifetime would be a cop-out, as it is completely unverifiable. That’s not to say there aren’t consequences for our actions. If I make a habit out of mistreating people, the natural outcome is that I increase my chances of being similarly mistreated… which brings us back to dealing in probabilities. If we can’t guarantee that a negative act in this lifetime will receive a backlash, what’re the chances that it will in the next, when I may be in a completely different environment with its own unique set of influences, with a different personality, making different choices? Is there really any good reason to believe that probability increases across lifetimes?


Karma between individuals is often said to be one of the major reasons we keep incarnating. We have unresolved issues leftover from other lifetimes with other people, so we’re obligated to come back to “set things right.” Much like karma oversimplifies the way causality actually works, so too does it oversimplify the mechanics of relationships between people. Relationships are complicated, dynamic things, especially when there’s a lot of history behind them, and it’s not always possible for everything to be “resolved.” A sense of obligation to others who we form close relationships with probably does keep people stuck in endless loops of incarnations – but one thing I’ve learned about obligation is that our only real obligations are those which we place upon ourselves. For my part, I figure that if I’ve got any standing issues with anyone else by the time I choose to stop incarnating – our higher selves can just talk it out over an astral beer, with full memory of the specifics involved. Good way to cut down on the drama, methinks.

[Kapitan_Prien]

'Rethinking Karma' article in full:

Not my work: http://beyond-within.com/blog/energy-work/rethinking-karma/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Fenergy-work%2Frethinking-karma%2F)

The “Law of Karma,” as it’s often presented, is disempowering. It has been variously used to justify suffering as “deserved,” and convince people to follow someone else’s idea of what is moral. It makes us subject to consequences for actions we have no memory of having committed, and in some forms, puts the responsibility for much of what happens to us with other beings and forces outside our control. We’re told we’re stuck on an endlessly spinning wheel until we figure out how to get off. More than likely, the only thing keeping us on that wheel is the idea that there is any such wheel to be stuck on. Do people really “get what they deserve”? Is there such thing as divine justice? Are our actions in previous lifetimes balanced by circumstances in present and future ones? Are our actions measured against a specific moral code? With so many different ideas influencing large numbers of people and competing for our attention, this is an important subject to delve into in order to gain some understanding.

My purpose in exploring this concept is not to prove or disprove a set of theological concepts which, by definition, are unprovable. What I am interested in, is personal sovereignty. I want to know how things work well enough that I’m free to choose my own experience, and let others know how to do the same. Ultimately, I want to know that choosing NOT to incarnate anymore is an option – and if it’s not, how to make it one. But before I get ahead of myself, it would probably be best to start the discussion with some historical background on the subject


What is Karma?
Karma is an ancient Sanskrit term that literally means “action” or “deed.” The concept comes to us mostly from Hinduism and Buddhism, though Jainism and Sikhism bear mentioning as well. There is a lot of variation among those traditions, but they all share the idea that karma is a universal law of cause and effect; that our actions have consequences which return to us. Karma is usually found alongside the concept of reincarnation, and thus it is thought that our karma spans across multiple lifetimes.


From there, the ancient traditions diverge. Hinduism tends toward a more theistic approach which involves deities supervising the karmic process and “giving people what they deserve.” This implies a built-in moral code by which deeds are measured, and indeed, Hinduism also emphasizes the concept of “duty.” Buddhists are more likely to believe the natural laws of causation are sufficient to explain the mechanism by which karma operates.


Buddhism also makes several innovations, suggesting that our actions plant “seeds” in one’s mind which then bloom into the appropriate outcome under the right conditions. Buddhism also emphasizes the motive behind one’s actions as being important in determining the karmic outcome. Neither of the two traditions are likely to view the process in terms of reward and punishment, but rather the natural outcome of one’s actions. When combined with reincarnation we get the common idea that karma creates a sort of “balance” – when we create causes, we have to keep returning in order to experience their effects. If we can bring that balance to zero, and keep it there, we can escape the incarnative cycle. This is probably the quickest crash-course in these traditions that you’ll ever get, and you’re encouraged to do your own research into the finer points if you feel so inclined; it’s interesting stuff. But for the purpose of providing enough historical background to aid in our discussion, that’ll do.


Things got more complicated when Eastern ideas, including karma, were adopted by Westerners with little frame of reference for the paradigm in which those concepts originated. Western ideas of karma were largely shaped by the west’s own Judeo-Christian influenced paradigm, with its moral framework and emphasis on rewards and punishments. While many people seek to distance themselves from this framework while moving on to more recently founded traditions in western spirituality, it shows up as a recurring theme nonetheless. Wicca, for instance, has added extra incentive (or deterrent, as the case may be) to follow their moral framework, in the form of the Threefold Law. This is a bit like karma on steroids, as it states that everything we do comes back to us multiplied by three. Among the various schools of thought under the New Age umbrella, it’s not uncommon to find teachings like the idea that there are “Lords of Karma” who fill in for the previously mentioned Hindu deities, although in this case there is often a clearly implied sense of reward and punishment.



Alternately, between lives we are sometimes said to appear before “councils” of varying descriptions, who either decide how we will work out our karma in the coming lifetime, or otherwise help us do so. So, having laid out the explanation of the most familiar and historical views of karma, now for the fun part: deconstructing them.


Back somewhere in the annals of time, a wise Yogi probably observed the same thing Newton would notice centuries later: that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This works great as a general rule for objects in motion at the observable level, but both Newton and our mystery Yogi attempted to apply it in ways well beyond its usefulness. Not that we should fault ‘em for it, as neither could have possibly forseen the advances of quantum mechanics. http://beyond-within.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif In any case, when we try to apply this physical law as a metaphysical explanation for “why bad things happen to good people,” (and conversely, why “bad” deeds often go unpunished), we run into problems.


Breakin’ the Law (of Causality)
Karma relies on the so-called “law of causality” – that every cause has a predictable effect. Therein lies a fatal flaw: there is no such law; as quantum physics is increasingly showing us, reality simply does not behave this way. We live in a universe of probabilities, not absolutes. While we can observe our surroundings and make generally reliable predictions about X event being followed by Y outcome, there is no guarantee that Y will always follow X for any given event. The best we can say is that there is a high probability that Y will follow X – but there is always the chance, however slight, that X could be followed by Z, Q or P (but not U; they’re overused enough as it is). For practical purposes this means that there is no guarantee that the outcome of one’s actions will correspond with the actions themselves in any way that makes sense to the logical mind. There can be no universal mechanism that infallibly balances out our actions as karma is said to do, because we can’t even say with total certainty whether a given action will produce the same outcome twice.


Caution: Free Will Ahead!
If I haven’t lost you yet with all the quasi-algebra – the plot thickens even more when we consider that anything that can be described as “karmic” takes place within the context of relationships and choices made between individuals. This introduces free-will into the equation – which, by definition, makes all outcomes even more unpredictable by definition. We live in a free will zone, where a broadly diverse cast of characters (some with more character than others) all coexist with the same freedom to do as they please within the limits of what is physically possible. If I walk outside right now and punch the first person I see, there are many possibilities as to what happens next. They could hit me back; they could press charges; they could pull out a gun and blow me away; they could run away. The outcome depends almost solely on the choices of the other person, and most likely will not be in any sense “equal” to my original action. To say that I might receive the backlash in some other lifetime would be a cop-out, as it is completely unverifiable. That’s not to say there aren’t consequences for our actions. If I make a habit out of mistreating people, the natural outcome is that I increase my chances of being similarly mistreated… which brings us back to dealing in probabilities. If we can’t guarantee that a negative act in this lifetime will receive a backlash, what’re the chances that it will in the next, when I may be in a completely different environment with its own unique set of influences, with a different personality, making different choices? Is there really any good reason to believe that probability increases across lifetimes?


Karma between individuals is often said to be one of the major reasons we keep incarnating. We have unresolved issues leftover from other lifetimes with other people, so we’re obligated to come back to “set things right.” Much like karma oversimplifies the way causality actually works, so too does it oversimplify the mechanics of relationships between people. Relationships are complicated, dynamic things, especially when there’s a lot of history behind them, and it’s not always possible for everything to be “resolved.” A sense of obligation to others who we form close relationships with probably does keep people stuck in endless loops of incarnations – but one thing I’ve learned about obligation is that our only real obligations are those which we place upon ourselves. For my part, I figure that if I’ve got any standing issues with anyone else by the time I choose to stop incarnating – our higher selves can just talk it out over an astral beer, with full memory of the specifics involved. Good way to cut down on the drama, methinks.


Beliefs and Subconscious Structures
The Buddhists may be onto something with this “seeds planted in the mind” idea, though I highly doubt that every single act creates a new one. What I can verify is that habitual thoughts, beliefs and actions create structures in the mind and energy bodies, which then exert a tremendous influence over what we experience. Our beliefs play a large role in creating our experience (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Fpersonal-development%2Fbeliefs-create-experiences%2F), as do the energetic structures created over time by habitual thought and courses of action. It may well be that holding a strong belief in a “law of karma” creates that structure within yourself, which you’ll then start manifesting in your circumstances. It’s worth mentioning that these structures can be nearly instantaneously changed or even destroyed (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Fpersonal-development%2Fdynamite-your-limitations%2F), resulting in a corresponding change in the influences and experiences one attracts. Suffice to say that if there ever was a karmic mechanism at work in my life, I think I broke it. Oops.


These structures can influence us across multiple lifetimes, which may have given rise to some of the ancient ideas about karma. Similarly to how past aspects of ourselves can manifest old unresolved patterns in our present circumstances, these aspects of ourselves can also originate in other lifetimes. It becomes problematic to try and place these patterns in any kind of moral or ethical context, however. Invariably they are the result of unhealed trauma, and unhealthy coping mechanisms. Alternately, negative entities (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Fpsychic-self-defense%2Fnegative-entities-101-introduction-and-types-of-entities%2F) are known for implanting similar structures (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Fmetaphysics%2Fnegative-entities-and-etheric-implants-an-introduction%2F) and interfering with one’s internal patterning (and by extension, the circumstances one attracts) without the awareness of the target. Over the course of my healing work on myself and others, where causes of present life patterns tend to be brought to light, I have yet to come across a case of someone “paying” for something they did in the past.


Nonphysical Allies and Adversaries
As you progress along your spiritual path, things tend to “heat up” which can produce an effect similar to karma. Once you’ve awakened to the idea that you’re on a specific path, your actions carry more weight, and wandering from your path, even unknowingly, can carry consequences. This may indeed be a natural mechanism, although I am more inclined to say it’s an extension of the free-will factor, involving positive and negative nonphysical entities and input from your own higher self. As we begin to awaken, we tend to attract attention from both sides. The possibility of seekers becoming the target of negative interference has already been explored (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Fpsychic-self-defense%2Fnegative-entities-101-natural-metaphysical-abilities-and-awakening%2F) in this blog. On the positive side, the saying “to whom much is given, much is required” applies here. Individual paths vary greatly, but in general, you will be held accountable for whether or not you are true to yourself and your nature as it’s defined at the highest level, with the stakes getting higher as you move closer to your Higher Self. Since this is unique for every person, exactly what you’re being held accountable for will not fit neatly into any broad-based religious moral code. Additionally, any positive beings (such as those we might think of as deities) who choose to work with you may also expect a high standard, complete with tests and seemingly harsh correction for not being true to your highest potential. Sometimes the “tests” can seem harsh while they’re in progress regardless of your own conduct, for that matter. Think of it like training under a venerable kung fu master. http://beyond-within.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif But again, this has nothing to do with universal mechanisms or what is “deserved” – it’s a matter of your higher self making an agreement with another being, likely one who specializes in a certain area, to work with one of its incarnations in order to develop in that direction. In any case, from my own exploration with various beings I get the impression that none of them are in the business of smiting the wicked and blessing the righteous across the board, and they don’t know anyone who is, either. http://beyond-within.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif


Belief in Karma Creates Suffering
At its worst, a strong belief in a law of karma can actually generate negative experiences in one’s life. There are many factors that could create a single negative experience – but combined with that belief in karma, one might begin wondering “what I must’ve done to deserve this,” which attaches guilt to the event. This guilt will attract more unpleasantness – and now we’re back to the vicious cycle created by the misguided idea of “deserved suffering (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbeyond-within.com%2Fblog%2Flaw-of-attraction%2Fis-suffering-necessary%2F).” Someone with a habitual victim mentality may well attract a person with sadistic tendencies who will abuse them – because they deserve it? No, because they can. If the targeted person feels guilt on top of their suffering (which is a tactic many abusers use to project the blame away from themselves!) they have only compounded their problem. As we have seen, suffering balances nothing and benefits nobody, because it tends to radiate outward and produce more suffering. Does this sound like an ordeal worth putting yourself through, over a supposed offense you don’t remember committing, that you can’t even verify? Hopefully not!

Another important factor to consider are the true psychopaths – people and entities who most would think have accumulated some heavy karma if anyone has, by deliberately causing others to suffer. However, the existence of this condition throws another monkey wrench into the wheel of karma itself. If someone literally has no conscience, then no amount of karmic backlash is going to give them one, or turn them into anything other than a psychopath. If that person were to hypothetically incarnate again without the psychopathy, their problem is already solved, and the backlash would fall on someone whose fundamental nature is not capable of committing the original offenses, and who has no awareness of having done so in the past. Once again: no balance or divine justice to be found here.


Putting it All Together
By putting the concept of free will together with the subconscious patterns and energetic structures that influence the circumstances we attract, we can explain the mechanisms behind the things that happen to us, in ways that are readily verifiable, without resorting to an external mechanism such as karma. With no way to verify its existence, and plenty of other ways to account for the phenomena it’s said to produce, karma is thus relegated to the position of a somewhat less psychotic version of the Christian Hell: a “consequence” invented to enforce a moral framework for which no natural consequences exist. We don’t like to think in these terms; that someone might commit an offense against us and “get away with it.” However, given the choice between embracing my personal sovereignty, and getting to see mine enemies struck down with great vengeance and furious anger (quite possibly by Samuel L. Jackson himself) – I think I’ll take the former. It is empowering to think that no universal mechanism or deity is “making me pay” for anything except, ultimately, myself – even if that means that the same goes for everyone else as well.


Look to no external authority to settle your affairs; all authority resides with YOU.


–Palehorse


(I love the last line :D)