The need to forgive

[seekerAK]

Forgiveness, we all know is one of the greatest virtues but it also happens to be one of the hardest things to do.

Holding on to a perceived injustice creates feelings on anger, bitterness/ resentment and the desire for revenge.

These feelings arise every time you remember the situation or the person who caused them in the first place.

Many people believe that the person who caused the hurt is the one in need of forgiveness and by forgiving him you are doing him a favour.

But the person doing the forgiving can himself benefit greatly: he will lose the feelings of anger, resentment, desire for revenge and these will be replaced with feelings of joy and peace in his heart.

He will also be letting go of karma and will not need to learn that lesson in a future carnation.

Holding onto those negative feelings will stymie a person's spiritual progress and prevent his reaching enlightenment. Even if a person isn't interested in attaining enlightenment, the negative feelings can grow and lead to a further growth in negativity in a person. That can then easily lead to depression and, in extreme cases, suicidal thoughts.

We may go around in our daily lives thinking that if we do not harm others we will not be harmed and find a sense of security in such thoughts.

However, if you are not as forgiving as Christ was you will invariably be presented with lessons which will test your ability to forgive. It may be a small incident where someone caused you offense because he disagreed with you. Or it could be something much more 'serious' where someone robbed you of all your wealth.

Whatever the incident, if it causes you to feel anger and resentment, etc it means you need that lesson at that point in your life so you can learn and grow from the experience. That is, the universe is presenting you an opportunity to move closer to the light.

When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.

That is why Christ said, " If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." He was delivering the message of forgiveness.

Turning the other cheek so the person can slap you there also would show that not only have you forgiven him but you are presenting him with an opportunity to repeat his action. In most cases a person who is being freely offered such an opportunity will not be able to keep it up before his heart melts and he experiences a personal transformation.


Peace and blessings and love to all

[Lorelyen]

It's impossible to agree with much of this, seekerAK.

You do come in with some terrible presumptions
Forgiveness, we all know is one of the greatest virtues but it also happens to be one of the hardest things to do.
No, we don't all know it's one of the greatest virtues. Spiritual softies might think so, but no. I don't. To me it's a cop-out and allows the "sinner" to think the harm or whatever was ok, all is rosy and can therefore repeat it.

It's only a virtue for those impotent to deal with the culprit. For most, forgiveness is just a transaction if the sinner shows clear signs of penitence by act word and deed, and tries to put things right. One can even help such people but it must be on the basis or reducing the chance that the sin happening again. Otherwise you seek justice.

That's why society has this system called "rule of law" - common assent to expected behaviour and punishment for infringement. It's been with humanity since the start in one form or another.


Holding on to a perceived injustice creates feelings on anger, bitterness/ resentment and the desire for revenge.
So what? What's wrong with revenge? It can make someone feel a lot better than uttering "I forgive" depending on the damage done of course. Retribution can remove bitterness and resentment at a stroke in the absence of penitence.


Many people believe that the person who caused the hurt is the one in need of forgiveness and by forgiving him you are doing him a favour.
Absolutely. You speak as if there's something inappropriate about that. Go by your philosophy and there'd be no prisons and all manner of harmful people, pedos, thieves, fraudsters etc etc would be running free in society. You may be happy about that. I'm not.

But the person doing the forgiving can himself benefit greatly: he will lose the feelings of anger, resentment, desire for revenge and these will be replaced with feelings of joy and peace in his heart.

He will also be letting go of karma and will not need to learn that lesson in a future carnation.Not sure you can "let go" of karma. In fact you could make a case for the sinner getting a karma credit as his sin has been "approved" by the aggrieved (who may lose karma by letting a miscreant off the hook).

Holding onto those negative feelings will stymie a person's spiritual progress and prevent his reaching enlightenment. Even if a person isn't interested in attaining enlightenment, the negative feelings can grow and lead to a further growth in negativity in a person. That can then easily lead to depression and, in extreme cases, suicidal thoughts.
Absolutely but you can rid negative feelings in different ways. It's the grudge that's negative. You're probably right that if you can't dispel things like grudges then you'll have trouble with enlightenment. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing though - some would say enlightenment shows you the way to dispel grudges. Others like yourself see it the other way around.

However, if you are not as forgiving as Christ was you will invariably be presented with lessons which will test your ability to forgive. It may be a small incident where someone caused you offense because he disagreed with you. Or it could be something much more 'serious' where someone robbed you of all your wealth.Or perhaps someone was murdered and society has to act because the person can't be around to forgive. Christ may have indeed forgiven but look where it got millions of his followers. Besides, there aren't many around like Jesus these days, if He's the Christ you mean. Turn the other cheek is fine until you run out of cheeks then you fight back or flee or die.

Whatever the incident, if it causes you to feel anger and resentment, etc it means you need that lesson at that point in your life so you can learn and grow from the experience. That is, the universe is presenting you an opportunity to move closer to the light.....
....
When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.

It all depends on your beliefs and temperament. You'll meet "spiritual people" who think they have forgiven but you'll see subtle changes in their expressions when the issue is brought up later. You could be reopening old wounds. Razing out the written troubles of a brain isn't as easy as some people think.

It's down to the current you follow. Coming from a different (spiritual) background I bring a different view to the discussion.

The useful lesson to learn whichever line you follow is don't get yourself in a position of having to forgive. It depletes one's soul.

Pax tecum.

...

[knightofalbion]

Forgiveness sets two souls free ...

[knightofalbion]

Whilst not trying to shirk responsibility for one's actions, also important to be able to forgive oneself ...

We are learning in a hard school.

[Lorelyen]

Forgiveness sets two souls free ...

Nice spiritual soundbite but I'd challenge it. In a perfect situation with perfect forgiveness it might set one soul free but that of the culprit? They're still a product of their acts, their being.

They'd need a don't care attitude in one shape or another which is not good for adjusting behaviour thus their soul would be as at was at the restore point.

....

[sunnyray]

When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.
Peace and blessings and love to all

That's a great point. But, if you can really forgive. Many times I think and feel I have forgiven some person, but that's on the surface of my mind. Going deeper inside, for example when in meditation, I often see I haven't really. The scars and wounds of the past hurts and misunderstandings are still present, suppressed deeper in my mind, and that's the indication that I haven't really forgiven. Then I know I have to work more, I have to improve my spiritual work, my meditation, so that I can really be free.

[knightofalbion]

A quite wonderful take on forgiveness from Nelson Mandela ...

"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison"

[seekerAK]

It's impossible to agree with much of this, seekerAK.

You do come in with some terrible presumptions

No, we don't all know it's one of the greatest virtues. Spiritual softies might think so, but no. I don't. To me it's a cop-out and allows the "sinner" to think the harm or whatever was ok, all is rosy and can therefore repeat it.

It's only a virtue for those impotent to deal with the culprit. For most, forgiveness is just a transaction if the sinner shows clear signs of penitence by act word and deed, and tries to put things right. One can even help such people but it must be on the basis or reducing the chance that the sin happening again. Otherwise you seek justice.

That's why society has this system called "rule of law" - common assent to expected behaviour and punishment for infringement. It's been with humanity since the start in one form or another.



So what? What's wrong with revenge? It can make someone feel a lot better than uttering "I forgive" depending on the damage done of course. Retribution can remove bitterness and resentment at a stroke in the absence of penitence.



Absolutely. You speak as if there's something inappropriate about that. Go by your philosophy and there'd be no prisons and all manner of harmful people, pedos, thieves, fraudsters etc etc would be running free in society. You may be happy about that. I'm not.

Not sure you can "let go" of karma. In fact you could make a case for the sinner getting a karma credit as his sin has been "approved" by the aggrieved (who may lose karma by letting a miscreant off the hook).


Absolutely but you can rid negative feelings in different ways. It's the grudge that's negative. You're probably right that if you can't dispel things like grudges then you'll have trouble with enlightenment. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing though - some would say enlightenment shows you the way to dispel grudges. Others like yourself see it the other way around.

Or perhaps someone was murdered and society has to act because the person can't be around to forgive. Christ may have indeed forgiven but look where it got millions of his followers. Besides, there aren't many around like Jesus these days, if He's the Christ you mean. Turn the other cheek is fine until you run out of cheeks then you fight back or flee or die.



It all depends on your beliefs and temperament. You'll meet "spiritual people" who think they have forgiven but you'll see subtle changes in their expressions when the issue is brought up later. You could be reopening old wounds. Razing out the written troubles of a brain isn't as easy as some people think.

It's down to the current you follow. Coming from a different (spiritual) background I bring a different view to the discussion.

The useful lesson to learn whichever line you follow is don't get yourself in a position of having to forgive. It depletes one's soul.

Pax tecum.

...

Thank you for your input Lorelyen.

Peace and blessings

[seekerAK]

That's a great point. But, if you can really forgive. Many times I think and feel I have forgiven some person, but that's on the surface of my mind. Going deeper inside, for example when in meditation, I often see I haven't really. The scars and wounds of the past hurts and misunderstandings are still present, suppressed deeper in my mind, and that's the indication that I haven't really forgiven. Then I know I have to work more, I have to improve my spiritual work, my meditation, so that I can really be free.

A good point. I don't do formal meditation although I used to before, but I try to always remain in a meditative or contemplative state. I rely on the whisperings of my heart so when I remember the imagined hurt or the person 'responsible' like you I sometimes see the scar and forgive the person again; gradually the hurt disappears. I will know my work is complete when I feel only love for that person.

Peace and blessings

[seekerAK]

A quite wonderful take on forgiveness from Nelson Mandela ...

"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison"

Thank you for such a wonderful quote. People who normally suffer the worst experiences or the greatest loss know more about the need to forgive than others.

Those who harbour hatred towards the perpetrator if the perceived wrong is big enough, normally suffer a miserable life and are, in a sense, in prison.

Peace and blessings.

[vortex]

The beauty of when there is nothing to forgive, every thing is just what it is, and you are open to all things. No right, wrong, good, bad, where you create from inspiration and work from inspiring, enrolling change, working with acceptance of what is but seeing a new vision and creating, enrolling, inspiring, others in your new vision

The beauty about acceptance in this case forgiveness to the mind is the freedom of drama in the critical mind, ego, “ being able to sleep at night” being open, inviting, freedom to be you in the present, freedom from being governed from passed experiences and what you have made them mean to you

[seekerAK]

Forgiveness sets two souls free ...

A great quote. Any idea who said this?

Peace and blessings

[seekerAK]

The beauty of when there is nothing to forgive, every thing is just what it is, and you are open to all things. No right, wrong, good, bad, where you create from inspiration and work from inspiring, enrolling change, working with acceptance of what is but seeing a new vision and creating, enrolling, inspiring, others in your new vision

The beauty about acceptance in this case forgiveness to the mind is the freedom of drama in the critical mind, ego, “ being able to sleep at night” being open, inviting, freedom to be you in the present, freedom from being governed from passed experiences and what you have made them mean to you

How insightful! There is lot here which gives food for thought.

I did read somewhere that if you forgive then you believe that person did something 'wrong' which needs to be forgiven.

In the perfect world where everyone is a loving individual, duality would cease to exist so a person would not view another's action as 'wrong'. But then people who possess Christ consciousness would not be able to do wrong.

Peace and blessing

[vespa68]

You simply cannot forgive without understanding who you are at a deeper level first. Some people are hard to understand because they have a lower level of consciousness than yourself. But if you understand yourself, you can understand others better too. Not an easy task.

[vortex]

How insightful! There is lot here which gives food for thought.

I did read somewhere that if you forgive then you believe that person did something 'wrong' which needs to be forgiven.

In the perfect world where everyone is a loving individual, duality would cease to exist so a person would not view another's action as 'wrong'. But then people who possess Christ consciousness would not be able to do wrong.

Peace and blessing

of topic but to really understand where i'm coming from

The awesomeness of being human and living in the planet of choice
You have total freedom of choice and your mind creates the illusion of what this world means to you
In all facts beliefs judgments its awesome when this sinks in your understanding and knowing for you have total freedom to walk as you just being in the glory of all it is to be human in the experience

In this freedom to see the mind as not the all that is but its there to give you choice and creates your individual illusion of your reality you have total freedom to be do what ever you want, down killing your self, others to a joy of life that words will never describe and ways to experience the same thing in all new ways its so awesome just to be here I am just so lucky to be human

The truth the belief I created for my illusion of all that is
All is whole complete as is including me
In the experience I create my reality and this is an illusion I created
There is no where to get or be just be and play, participate, create, in being present to the experience
Love to all in all they be and how I perceive them to be
Love to all, love sent to all the world, a big hug to all energy at work here
All there is to be is possible in all experiences go and experience being me

And I must say a big thank “spirit or what ever’ for years off automatic writing, typing and conversations driving, awesome drawings, helping me through the heavy times and showing the awesome states of being that never thought possible in this plain. I am so lucky to have you or what ever in my life

All is one all is energy that flows though us all
As the ones from the planet of love would say ”why hurt others its only hurts you”
True can be said here, love to all you be

Note I use to channel the Christ consciousness while lessening to highway to hell ACDC it all ways amused me

[jorddy]

Everyone is acting from their own sense of right.

For me, forgiveness is to realize that they are separate from you, and that they act from their own place of justness.

Forgiveness does not necessarily mean acceptance.. I have forgiven many people, and have denied their being within my life.

We are all at varying stages of naiveté. Forgiveness is realizing that :) .. Acceptance is deciding wether or not they belong within your life with that level of growth.

I feel that many people think to forgive means to accept with open arms. They are not the same.

[vortex]

I feel that many people think to forgive means to accept with open arms..
ha ha that’s just foolish in some cases

but acceptance of the them not making them wrong, bad or your self
you can choose where you want to see or have any thing to do with them again

that’s what I mean by acceptance

[Miss Hepburn]

Any post on promoting forgiveness is :thumbsup: to me!
Since ACIM is all about forgiveness, I could write a chapter on it!

And that Nelson M. quote was so great, Knight!
.
.
.

[vespa68]

Everyone is acting from their own sense of right.

For me, forgiveness is to realize that they are separate from you, and that they act from their own place of justness.

Forgiveness does not necessarily mean acceptance.. I have forgiven many people, and have denied their being within my life.

We are all at varying stages of naiveté. Forgiveness is realizing that :) .. Acceptance is deciding wether or not they belong within your life with that level of growth.

I feel that many people think to forgive means to accept with open arms. They are not the same.

But forgiveness would mean acceptance. You accept who they are, you understand who they are because you understand who you are. You can decide not to have them in your life of course, that would be the smart thing to do.

[jorddy]

@ Vespa:

Agreed :)

In order to come to this realization, one must realize that it is not the person that is no-good.. Their perception of reality causes them to react to it a certain way..

And your perception of reality causes you to react to it a certain way..

And if you are both at such different levels of consciousness, then you are both pulling in realities that are not much alike.. And that causes disturbance in action when they two worlds collide.

So it is just that you are not a good match of developments.

One is more naive and that is perfectly fine. It takes the more conscious one to step out of their perceptions and into the other person's to realize the level of ignorance the other person is coming from... To realize that the other person is not coming there from hell.. but coming there from a lesson they still need to learn.

[Lorelyen]

I gather very few people here have had anything traumatising to forgive. Maybe hurts, minor crimes. That's easy. Beyond that only the foolish would want the culprit to feel their behaviour was all right and should be allowed to be repeated. There are people in my town who don't risk going out alone of a night (including me) because marauding nasty people can bring harm to them.

One would love to erase such machinations from society / the streets. Approving the culprits behaviour is not the way.

People might well forgive easily but can they forget? And if they can't forget, have they forgiven at all?

It's lovely and comfortable living in this new age spiritual bubble but just get yourself raped at knifepoint or beaten up for your wallet to get a druggie his next fix and you might find it harder. We had a girl in the zumba class who was raped and as a result contracted HIV. So...she should just forgive???
She hasn't even got the will to return to the class and obviously can't now form a relationship where sex might be likely.
Claiming she should forgive is just a sour joke.

Get real, people.

...

[sunnyray]

I will know my work is complete when I feel only love for that person.

Yes. I couldn't agree more.

If you are looking for signs that you've forgiven, that's the most important one.

With love and light,

[Miss Hepburn]

...but just get yourself raped at knife point or beaten up for your
wallet ...
We had a girl in the zumba class who was raped and as a result
contracted HIV.
So...she should just forgive??

Get real, people.
... What are her other options then?
There are many.
What creates the best results for her, I would think, right?
As a whole many would differ on what those are.

I do not want to tell my stories from my naive 20s
getting myself into 'situations'...police involvement.
But, forgiving isn't actually part of it so much as 'seeing'...as in,
'What was all that about anyway, what can I learn from these events...
what was I being shown...how did I open myself to
these things so I never do again. How do I protect myself?'

There are dark elements in this world, it is the nature of being here on earth, period.
So how do we choose to deal with duality; good and bad...light and dark.
A blanket forgiveness without deep wisdom might not be easy or even last.

[Sarian]

For me personally, forgiveness isn't really about saying "I forgive you, it's okay"...because there are some downright nasty people out there, horrible and wicked, cruel, demented ...you get the point...and I've had horrible things happen to me and they had an impact on me and it took me a LONG time to resolve them. Some people I did forgive, like an uncle who sexually abused me...I did not tell him so but in my mind I found compassion rising but only because I saw as he aged and had children of his own, he could not live with himself, it ate away at him. I think he told my aunt because she was a quiet woman, very sweet and she began hugging me all the time, calling me, sending me cards....just being there. It was very sweet but we never talked about it. There are some people who never changed and think nothing still of controlling and abusing others...they may not hold a soft spot in my heart but I had to release it all. What's done is done and in the past...I could continue to be a nervous, depressed, anxious wreck with low or no self-esteem now or I could rise above it all, even if I have to do it every day and sometimes I just wallowed but I hated that putrid pool of pity so I clawed my way out. It's been a journey but to even get where I am now is well worth all that fighting and clawing my way above it and when I simply said no more and released it, it sped up the growth incredibly.

[Molearner]

SeekerAK,

I love this topic......thank you ! Let's for discussion sake approach this in a different way. We should ask ourselves whether it is more difficult to forgive or more difficult to love. For me, love and forgiveness are inseparable. If we say that it is easier to love than to forgive, then we are most often speaking of conditional love.....i.e. if someone is good to us, belongs to us, etc. then it is easy to love them. If we withhold our love from anyone then that indicates we believe only in conditional love. We remember the words of Jesus....."Love one another even as I have loved you"........what would the difference be if Jesus had said....."Forgive one another even as I have forgiven you" ??

Somehow, people mistakenly think that the spiritual path should be easy. In reality, it presents a tremendous challenge to our egos and we must be tested at ascending levels to experience ultimate success. The fact that we cannot meet certain tests does not mean that we are bad people. It just means that we will not achieve the highest possible level.

[blackraven]

Forgiveness, we all know is one of the greatest virtues but it also happens to be one of the hardest things to do.

Holding on to a perceived injustice creates feelings on anger, bitterness/ resentment and the desire for revenge.

These feelings arise every time you remember the situation or the person who caused them in the first place.

Many people believe that the person who caused the hurt is the one in need of forgiveness and by forgiving him you are doing him a favour.

But the person doing the forgiving can himself benefit greatly: he will lose the feelings of anger, resentment, desire for revenge and these will be replaced with feelings of joy and peace in his heart.

He will also be letting go of karma and will not need to learn that lesson in a future carnation.

Holding onto those negative feelings will stymie a person's spiritual progress and prevent his reaching enlightenment. Even if a person isn't interested in attaining enlightenment, the negative feelings can grow and lead to a further growth in negativity in a person. That can then easily lead to depression and, in extreme cases, suicidal thoughts.

We may go around in our daily lives thinking that if we do not harm others we will not be harmed and find a sense of security in such thoughts.

However, if you are not as forgiving as Christ was you will invariably be presented with lessons which will test your ability to forgive. It may be a small incident where someone caused you offense because he disagreed with you. Or it could be something much more 'serious' where someone robbed you of all your wealth.

Whatever the incident, if it causes you to feel anger and resentment, etc it means you need that lesson at that point in your life so you can learn and grow from the experience. That is, the universe is presenting you an opportunity to move closer to the light.

When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.

That is why Christ said, " If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." He was delivering the message of forgiveness.

Turning the other cheek so the person can slap you there also would show that not only have you forgiven him but you are presenting him with an opportunity to repeat his action. In most cases a person who is being freely offered such an opportunity will not be able to keep it up before his heart melts and he experiences a personal transformation.


Peace and blessings and love to all

seekerAK - I didn't think I had a NEED to forgive for many many years. I just didn't see the purpose in letting past offenders off the hook in my mind. I wanted to keep the pain and resentment locked deep inside me so I would never forget and make the same mistakes in the future. But locking all that anger away carried a heavy price. I wasn't happy, relaxed, joyful, living a fulfilling life or opening up to new opportunities for relationships. So I slowly decided to unlock that vault where I store all the past transgressions and honestly looks at each one by one. By then I had matured through the years greatly and had learned to apply the same discernment and forgiveness for my own self as just being human along with those that hurt me. It's in looking at my own mistakes (there's many) that I stopped judging others so harshly and trying to hold them to unattainable standards. Sure things weren't the way I would have liked them to be in the past with various people, but I reminded myself I was dealing with people and people are not infallible, including myself. I can only tell you in slowly releasing stuff from the vault that a serious weight came off of my shoulders. I am a freer and much less judgmental person today.

I do agree with what Lorelyn said though about horrific crimes and it being much more difficult to forgive and let go. PTSD is real and it doesn't go away with a soulful cleanse.

[seekerAK]

You simply cannot forgive without understanding who you are at a deeper level first. Some people are hard to understand because they have a lower level of consciousness than yourself. But if you understand yourself, you can understand others better too. Not an easy task.

An interesting point. Do you tie in a person's spiritual growth with his ability to know himself?

If so, I agree that a person who knows himself because of his level of consciousness will know humanity better including individual souls and therefore can forgive easily.

Peace and blessings

[vespa68]

I gather very few people here have had anything traumatising to forgive. Maybe hurts, minor crimes. That's easy. Beyond that only the foolish would want the culprit to feel their behaviour was all right and should be allowed to be repeated. There are people in my town who don't risk going out alone of a night (including me) because marauding nasty people can bring harm to them.

One would love to erase such machinations from society / the streets. Approving the culprits behaviour is not the way.

People might well forgive easily but can they forget? And if they can't forget, have they forgiven at all?

It's lovely and comfortable living in this new age spiritual bubble but just get yourself raped at knifepoint or beaten up for your wallet to get a druggie his next fix and you might find it harder. We had a girl in the zumba class who was raped and as a result contracted HIV. So...she should just forgive???
She hasn't even got the will to return to the class and obviously can't now form a relationship where sex might be likely.
Claiming she should forgive is just a sour joke.

Get real, people.

...

Exactly that is why I wrote what I wrote above. No one should forgive until they have a deeper understanding of who they are and have a higher truth. The girl who got raped would maybe thrn understand later that some people have lowers consciousness or no consciousness (evil). She would also maybe understand how the event woke her up to a higher truth in other ways if she could really heal this at a deeper level. Although really not easy.

[vespa68]

An interesting point. Do you tie in a person's spiritual growth with his ability to know himself?

If so, I agree that a person who knows himself because of his level of consciousness will know humanity better including individual souls and therefore can forgive easily.

Peace and blessings

Yes absolutely, you understood :-)!

[seekerAK]

of topic but to really understand where i'm coming from

The awesomeness of being human and living in the planet of choice
You have total freedom of choice and your mind creates the illusion of what this world means to you
In all facts beliefs judgments its awesome when this sinks in your understanding and knowing for you have total freedom to walk as you just being in the glory of all it is to be human in the experience

In this freedom to see the mind as not the all that is but its there to give you choice and creates your individual illusion of your reality you have total freedom to be do what ever you want, down killing your self, others to a joy of life that words will never describe and ways to experience the same thing in all new ways its so awesome just to be here I am just so lucky to be human

The truth the belief I created for my illusion of all that is
All is whole complete as is including me
In the experience I create my reality and this is an illusion I created
There is no where to get or be just be and play, participate, create, in being present to the experience
Love to all in all they be and how I perceive them to be
Love to all, love sent to all the world, a big hug to all energy at work here
All there is to be is possible in all experiences go and experience being me

And I must say a big thank “spirit or what ever’ for years off automatic writing, typing and conversations driving, awesome drawings, helping me through the heavy times and showing the awesome states of being that never thought possible in this plain. I am so lucky to have you or what ever in my life

All is one all is energy that flows though us all
As the ones from the planet of love would say ”why hurt others its only hurts you”
True can be said here, love to all you be

Note I use to channel the Christ consciousness while lessening to highway to hell ACDC it all ways amused me

vortex, I love this post and would like to thank you. The feelings you have expressed about life, the planet and freedom are the exact feelings I have experienced in the past and do so when my consciousness rises to a higher level.

The feelings of absolute freedom you feel at those times cannot be expressed in words - they need to be felt.

It's true that we create our own reality and I have seen it so many times in people where they are, for example, always judging others. Such people actually have a need to do that and thus they find /create situations to judge.

How much more pleasant life would be for such a person if he could go through just one day without judging others. If he were to do that he would free himself from a negative mindset and thus create a new reality for himself at least for that one day.

Yes, I have also realized that when you hurt another you hurt yourself. It would lower my vibration and I would have to work hard to remedy that.

Source is love and energy and we are source having a human experience.

Peace and blessings

[AlexDF]

Forgiveness, we all know is one of the greatest virtues but it also happens to be one of the hardest things to do.

Holding on to a perceived injustice creates feelings on anger, bitterness/ resentment and the desire for revenge.

These feelings arise every time you remember the situation or the person who caused them in the first place.

Many people believe that the person who caused the hurt is the one in need of forgiveness and by forgiving him you are doing him a favour.

But the person doing the forgiving can himself benefit greatly: he will lose the feelings of anger, resentment, desire for revenge and these will be replaced with feelings of joy and peace in his heart.

He will also be letting go of karma and will not need to learn that lesson in a future carnation.

Holding onto those negative feelings will stymie a person's spiritual progress and prevent his reaching enlightenment. Even if a person isn't interested in attaining enlightenment, the negative feelings can grow and lead to a further growth in negativity in a person. That can then easily lead to depression and, in extreme cases, suicidal thoughts.

We may go around in our daily lives thinking that if we do not harm others we will not be harmed and find a sense of security in such thoughts.

However, if you are not as forgiving as Christ was you will invariably be presented with lessons which will test your ability to forgive. It may be a small incident where someone caused you offense because he disagreed with you. Or it could be something much more 'serious' where someone robbed you of all your wealth.

Whatever the incident, if it causes you to feel anger and resentment, etc it means you need that lesson at that point in your life so you can learn and grow from the experience. That is, the universe is presenting you an opportunity to move closer to the light.

When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.

That is why Christ said, " If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." He was delivering the message of forgiveness.

Turning the other cheek so the person can slap you there also would show that not only have you forgiven him but you are presenting him with an opportunity to repeat his action. In most cases a person who is being freely offered such an opportunity will not be able to keep it up before his heart melts and he experiences a personal transformation.


Peace and blessings and love to all

yes forgiveness the spiritual death trap for so many

you can also just understand why a person attacks

maybe he is an energy stealer and you see why and how that works

no need to send negativity back but no need to forgive

its just how they are in that stage

why forgive ? just don't send negativity towards them

there are energy stealers that prey on that to

on knowing your fear for creating bad situations for your self

nasty nasty but walk away and be free and know why they do it

Christ said nothing, bin your bible it makes you a slave

he was never named Christ at all

it re written words to trap you in to slavery

ever heard of ascended master sananda ?

that was his real name

[seekerAK]

@ Vespa:

Agreed :)

In order to come to this realization, one must realize that it is not the person that is no-good.. Their perception of reality causes them to react to it a certain way..

And your perception of reality causes you to react to it a certain way..

And if you are both at such different levels of consciousness, then you are both pulling in realities that are not much alike.. And that causes disturbance in action when they two worlds collide.

So it is just that you are not a good match of developments.

One is more naive and that is perfectly fine. It takes the more conscious one to step out of their perceptions and into the other person's to realize the level of ignorance the other person is coming from... To realize that the other person is not coming there from hell.. but coming there from a lesson they still need to learn.

Very true and insightful.

When a person comes to this realization he is able to see the person at a deeper level knowing that the vicissitudes of life caused him to act that way.

As an example, he could have gone through a very difficult upbringing suffering abuse at the hands of a brutal father, then find that he is rejected at school because he is quiet and cannot make friends with other children since they could discover his 'secret' if he opened up to them. If at every turn he finds failure/rejection it would be no wonder if he ends up harming others. This is actually quite a common scenario in the case of the worst 'offenders'. Such a person is acting from his reality - a reality that taught him it is ok to brutalize and harm someone without any reason.

Peace and blessings.

[seekerAK]

For me personally, forgiveness isn't really about saying "I forgive you, it's okay"...because there are some downright nasty people out there, horrible and wicked, cruel, demented ...you get the point...and I've had horrible things happen to me and they had an impact on me and it took me a LONG time to resolve them. Some people I did forgive, like an uncle who sexually abused me...I did not tell him so but in my mind I found compassion rising but only because I saw as he aged and had children of his own, he could not live with himself, it ate away at him. I think he told my aunt because she was a quiet woman, very sweet and she began hugging me all the time, calling me, sending me cards....just being there. It was very sweet but we never talked about it. There are some people who never changed and think nothing still of controlling and abusing others...they may not hold a soft spot in my heart but I had to release it all. What's done is done and in the past...I could continue to be a nervous, depressed, anxious wreck with low or no self-esteem now or I could rise above it all, even if I have to do it every day and sometimes I just wallowed but I hated that putrid pool of pity so I clawed my way out. It's been a journey but to even get where I am now is well worth all that fighting and clawing my way above it and when I simply said no more and released it, it sped up the growth incredibly.

Thank you for sharing this story.

Releasing it all can free the person from the suffering.

Putting the person behind bars will get him off the street so he perpetrate any more crimes but won't provide the release that is necessary for healing.

Peace and blessings

[seekerAK]

seekerAK - I didn't think I had a NEED to forgive for many many years. I just didn't see the purpose in letting past offenders off the hook in my mind. I wanted to keep the pain and resentment locked deep inside me so I would never forget and make the same mistakes in the future. But locking all that anger away carried a heavy price. I wasn't happy, relaxed, joyful, living a fulfilling life or opening up to new opportunities for relationships. So I slowly decided to unlock that vault where I store all the past transgressions and honestly looks at each one by one. By then I had matured through the years greatly and had learned to apply the same discernment and forgiveness for my own self as just being human along with those that hurt me. It's in looking at my own mistakes (there's many) that I stopped judging others so harshly and trying to hold them to unattainable standards. Sure things weren't the way I would have liked them to be in the past with various people, but I reminded myself I was dealing with people and people are not infallible, including myself. I can only tell you in slowly releasing stuff from the vault that a serious weight came off of my shoulders. I am a freer and much less judgmental person today.

I do agree with what Lorelyn said though about horrific crimes and it being much more difficult to forgive and let go. PTSD is real and it doesn't go away with a soulful cleanse.

I agree.

I have not experienced PTSD so I don't think I'm in a position to comment on it.

I'd like to cite an example. I had a student several years ago whom I had taught for several years. He was murdered in a very brutal manner after being tortured. I knew his mother before the incident and she was a very happy person. Needless to say, it was a traumatic experience for her to lose a son who was only 17 years old. Sometimes I meet her in different places and I can see the pain she carries in her face. The grief has totally changed her face and behaviour.

I'm not saying the law should forgive the perpetrators and let them walk free; by all means put them behind bars.

I can understand that it was a terrible experience but I cannot bear to see the suffering she is still experiencing. I just feel that if she let go she could start the process of healing. Continuing to suffer won't make a bit of difference to the perpetrators nor is it going to bring her son back.

Peace and blessings

[seekerAK]

SeekerAK,

I love this topic......thank you ! Let's for discussion sake approach this in a different way. We should ask ourselves whether it is more difficult to forgive or more difficult to love. For me, love and forgiveness are inseparable. If we say that it is easier to love than to forgive, then we are most often speaking of conditional love.....i.e. if someone is good to us, belongs to us, etc. then it is easy to love them. If we withhold our love from anyone then that indicates we believe only in conditional love. We remember the words of Jesus....."Love one another even as I have loved you"........what would the difference be if Jesus had said....."Forgive one another even as I have forgiven you" ??




First of all I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

You have brought a very important element into the discussion.

Love is tied to forgiveness but normally most don't realize it. When you are able to forgive and have no vestiges of resentment, etc in your heart love has to be there.

Yes, it has to be unconditional love. Saying 'I love everyone except for those who hurt me' would be putting a condition on that love.

But the source is unconditional love and so was Christ.

The simple example of when Christ was dying on the cross.

'And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
If Christ did not feel unconditional love he could not have uttered these words.

I agree fully with you when you say that love and forgiveness are inseparable. I have felt the need to forgive some people in my life who caused me suffering and loss and gradually I have found that whenever I think of them I feel love for them. They provided me with valuable lessons in life which I wouldn't have learned had it not been for them.

When I think of them now, I see in my mind's eye their higher selves being at peace and looking down at me with love in their eyes from the ether.

'Somehow, people mistakenly think that the spiritual path should be easy. In reality, it presents a tremendous challenge to our egos and we must be tested at ascending levels to experience ultimate success. The fact that we cannot meet certain tests does not mean that we are bad people. It just means that we will not achieve the highest possible level.'

Again, I fully agree with this. The tests get harder as one ascends. The ego puts up a lot of resistance on the path but if you can totally get rid of the ego you will find source in its place.

Peace and blessings

[7luminaries]

First...it is a challenge and a great spiritual gift to be able to forgive without true reconciliation (i.e. without ownership, true remorse, contrition, and repentance or a turning away from the behavior by the "perp")...particularly in cases involving rape, assault, torture, or murder.

No one can or should be forced to forgive before their time. Particularly when it is only for themselves and no one is seeking sincere, repentant forgiveness. When it's only for you to free your own heart from anger and pain, then you're on your own schedule and you make the call.

Because if just one-sided and not involving both parties, then forgiveness is most of all a gift of love that you give to yourself. It's true that the healing will never be as deep or transformative as the healing of a mutual reconciliation between two souls on the same page, so to speak. But it does allow you to move forward and to lighten your load. It's the best we can do for ourselves all by ourselves. And since we very much should love ourselves as best as we are able, then we very much should set down our pain and burdens bit by bit, wherever we can and whenever we are ready.

As I've been told by the guides before, always leave the broken or wounded channel of your heart open...even if it's just a crack. Even in your most visceral pain when it would seem easier to shut it all down, try very hard to resist. Then, when you're ready, you can once again increase the flow of love through the channel once more :hug3:

Here are some powerful quotes that remind me of how important forgiveness is to our own healing, regardless if the other(s) ever notice or respond or feel any regard or remorse. Moreover, if the other(s) truly see you and are sincerely contrite and repentant regarding you personally, and if you offer your sincere forgiveness and compassion and acceptance of their contrition and repentance -- then the spiritual depths (heights) attained in a mutual reconciliation are truly transformative on a cosmic scale.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

“Do you know what hurts so very much? It's love. Love is the strongest force in the world, and when it is blocked that means pain. There are two things we can do when this happens. We can kill that love so that it stops hurting. But then of course part of us dies, too. Or we can ask God to open up another route for that love to travel.” — Corrie Ten Boom, Christian Holocaust survivor and author, The Hiding Place


“Despite everything, life is full of beauty and meaning.” - Etty Hillesum, died at Auschwitz Nov 1943 - Life is Beautiful

[7luminaries]

Somehow, people mistakenly think that the spiritual path should be easy. In reality, it presents a tremendous challenge to our egos and we must be tested at ascending levels to experience ultimate success. The fact that we cannot meet certain tests does not mean that we are bad people. It just means that we will not achieve the highest possible level.
Yes...agreed.
And for those who are shattered like the woman who got HIV or many round the world who've suffered atrocities during war and genocide...it may be that life has delivered tests that they cannot yet sort or bear. They too present challenges to the rest of us, namely first and foremost to do no harm...certainly no aggregious harm.

I cannot judge or give pithy advice...only my heartfelt compassion and sorrow for their pain. One other sentiment comes to mind, which may bring them some comfort as they strive to find their feet and their way back home to Spirit and centre amidst the trauma...

Darkness cannot conquer darkness...only light (can do that).
Hatred cannot conquer hatred...only love (can do that). -- ancient Taoist and Buddhist quote, also MLK
May they find the light and the love they need to overcome and transmute the trials they have had to bear and endure.
And may they too find the time and place to lay down some of their burdens.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[bees]

Forgiveness, we all know is one of the greatest virtues but it also happens to be one of the hardest things to do.

Holding on to a perceived injustice creates feelings on anger, bitterness/ resentment and the desire for revenge.

These feelings arise every time you remember the situation or the person who caused them in the first place.

Many people believe that the person who caused the hurt is the one in need of forgiveness and by forgiving him you are doing him a favour.

But the person doing the forgiving can himself benefit greatly: he will lose the feelings of anger, resentment, desire for revenge and these will be replaced with feelings of joy and peace in his heart.

He will also be letting go of karma and will not need to learn that lesson in a future carnation.

Holding onto those negative feelings will stymie a person's spiritual progress and prevent his reaching enlightenment. Even if a person isn't interested in attaining enlightenment, the negative feelings can grow and lead to a further growth in negativity in a person. That can then easily lead to depression and, in extreme cases, suicidal thoughts.

We may go around in our daily lives thinking that if we do not harm others we will not be harmed and find a sense of security in such thoughts.

However, if you are not as forgiving as Christ was you will invariably be presented with lessons which will test your ability to forgive. It may be a small incident where someone caused you offense because he disagreed with you. Or it could be something much more 'serious' where someone robbed you of all your wealth.

Whatever the incident, if it causes you to feel anger and resentment, etc it means you need that lesson at that point in your life so you can learn and grow from the experience. That is, the universe is presenting you an opportunity to move closer to the light.

When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.

That is why Christ said, " If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." He was delivering the message of forgiveness.

Turning the other cheek so the person can slap you there also would show that not only have you forgiven him but you are presenting him with an opportunity to repeat his action. In most cases a person who is being freely offered such an opportunity will not be able to keep it up before his heart melts and he experiences a personal transformation.


Peace and blessings and love to all

Fully agree. Thank you for your post :smile:

[boshy b. good]

we don't need head games build on that pull our hair so forgiveness is just going with the flow. will argue we be better to accept after time managemented, we got to just defeat the stick in da mud. forgiveness be easy with be you spine adjustments. days are new daily instead of doesn't know forgive goes a remaking us because we're not going to say 'look, and then this' when we greet everything fresh. forgiveness be icon for da evolved animal us. being unhappy versus forgive. when life gives you apples - take the apples. who does burst forgiveness back that up.

[keokutah]

The thing I never understand is how do you forgive and stand up for yourself at the same time?

For example, if someone came up to you and hurt you right now, would you forgive them and ignore it and let it go, or do you stand up for yourself? And what if they are so stubborn that they don't listen, and they just keep pushing your buttons until you get mad? How do you handle that situation with "forgiveness?"
I don't think it's healthy to just turn a blind eye to it because then you'll be encouraging this person to be a jerk to other people, right?

[boshy b. good]

that forgiveness and self defense do not mix.

[seekerAK]

The thing I never understand is how do you forgive and stand up for yourself at the same time?

For example, if someone came up to you and hurt you right now, would you forgive them and ignore it and let it go, or do you stand up for yourself? And what if they are so stubborn that they don't listen, and they just keep pushing your buttons until you get mad? How do you handle that situation with "forgiveness?"
I don't think it's healthy to just turn a blind eye to it because then you'll be encouraging this person to be a jerk to other people, right?

A 'normal' person will have difficulty in forgiving someone at the time of the perceived hurt, for example, if some stranger comes and slaps him on the face for no apparent reason.

A person having a highly developed consciousness living in the now would react according to the moment and what his higher self guides him to do. Let me introduce an attribute that such a person has which 'normal' people lack. A person of this high vibration would actually know that such an incident is going to occur and welcome it for the lesson it is going to provide before it happens (clairvoyance). So, when it actually happens it does not come as a surprise to him but the needed lesson for his continued spiritual progress. Since he is living 'in the now' his higher self's guidance is all-important to his decision-making process.

The higher self may guide him just to ignore the attack and continue on his way. He would then forgive the person for the act and send love towards him so he could be heeled from his pain.

If the person is even more advanced spiritually, he would forgive the person at the instant of the attack and express this to him by saying, "I forgive you". By doing so he would derive the maximum spiritual benefit from the incident since he did not delay to forgive the perpetrator and express this to him.

Now, the lesson he desires from the perpetrator may require the perpetrator to continue attacking him with, for example, more slaps. If he is able to continue forgiving for each slap and tells this to the perpetrator, the spiritual benefit would be much greater and thus his spiritual progress would be faster.

Eventually the attacker, being totally befuddled not understanding why he is being forgiven for his repeated attacks, will desist and may even have a spiritual transformation himself. His attacks would not go beyond what the attacked person can bear with or what he desires at that moment for his spiritual evolution. With each slap and each act of forgiveness, the love that the attacked person feels in his heart from the source would get stronger and that is what he revels in.

He would be learning further lessons of not only forgiveness but also of love, compassion, understanding and humility. One may ask what is the value of increased humility from the experience? The greater the person grows in humility the less pride and ego he has.

He will not be a weak person but possess a strength that a 'normal' person lacks. He will not get 'mad' because by that stage in his evolution he would not experience anger, hatred, desire for revenge, etc. that 'normal' people experience.

He would not be turning a blind eye to the attack because he has chosen for it to occur for his own spiritual development.

Peace and blessings

[keokutah]

I can see what you're saying but I highly doubt an "enlightened" person would be so self-loathing that they would allow people to harm them.

Allowing someone to continuously abuse you isn't forgiveness, it's self-harm.

Perhaps that is why most enlightened people prefer to take a vow of silence and live in isolation.

[bees]

I can see what you're saying but I highly doubt an "enlightened" person would be so self-loathing that they would allow people to harm them.

Allowing someone to continuously abuse you isn't forgiveness, it's self-harm.

Perhaps that is why most enlightened people prefer to take a vow of silence and live in isolation.

LoL do you know most enlightened people? Remember, it takes one to know one :smile:

Additionally, forgiveness is not equatable to allowing self harm.

[keokutah]

LoL do you know most enlightened people? Remember, it takes one to know one :smile:

Additionally, forgiveness is not equatable to allowing self harm.

Do you care to elaborate and explain what you're talking about?

[Jared.L]

Forgiveness is not the true virtue....you'd better not bear a grudge at all ;)

[seekerAK]

I can see what you're saying but I highly doubt an "enlightened" person would be so self-loathing that they would allow people to harm them.

Allowing someone to continuously abuse you isn't forgiveness, it's self-harm.

Perhaps that is why most enlightened people prefer to take a vow of silence and live in isolation.

An enlightened person is enlightened precisely because he does not think or react in the same way as an 'unenlightened ' person. First of all, a person of lower consciousness would view an attack on himself as undeserved and respond in a way to teach the attacker a lesson, that is, he would respond in a similar way if not with greater violence. He would certainly not respond with love or forgiveness.

An unenlightened person already has a lot of suffering in his life and perceived burdens which he is constantly occupied without thinking about sacrifices he needs to make to reach enlightenment so in the above situation he would respond from his psychological make-up and nature and it would be in accordance with his own beliefs about what is 'right' or 'wrong'.

Since the level of forgiveness needed in this situation would be high I'd like to discuss only the reaction of an enlightened person or someone very close to having attained enlightenment. An enlightened person would be someone like the Buddha, Christ, St Francis of Assisi (There were other great spiritual masters so if anyone disagrees with the fact that the names I gave are examples of people having reached enlightenment he may substitute other names here of enlightened individuals).

I would contend that someone who is advanced on the path of enlightenment would forgive someone who has just slapped him not from self-loathing but because he loves everyone in the world (unconditional love). He has attained unity consciousness. When you attain unity consciousness you view the universe and everything in it as if it is a part of you. Separation ceases to exist and everything is you and you are aware of this fact. Therefore the love that you feel for the source you also would feel towards everything in the universe including the person who just slapped you. In that situation since the love you feel is unconditional, you cannot think, "I love everyone in the world except for the person who just slapped me." The moment you think that you are showing to yourself that the love you feel towards people is conditional.

Therefore to respond in that situation by slapping the person who just slapped you (the wider you) shows that you are no different from him (I don't mean in the way of "I am better than you") and you have lowered your vibration to his level. This would show that you have not reached enlightenment.

The road to enlightenment is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifices and would not appeal to every one. Thus we normally do not see people in our everyday lives who have reached enlightenment or even are close to reaching enlightenment.

So not to respond in like-manner is not a sign of self-loathing, it shows that your love for the attacker is the same as it was before he attacked you. The attack itself would have been initiated by your higher self in the first place to present you with an opportunity to learn a lesson in forgiveness. The attacker was merely the instrument and you would be aware of that fact. If you are in unity consciousness (or Christ consciousness) you can only respond with love and forgiveness. He will have presented you with an opportunity for further growth on the path since spiritual evolution does not end when you have reached a certain stage in your development.

Taking a vow and living in isolation would be the choice of some and that is why we hear all those stories of hermits living in caves in the past. That would be easier than living among people and still being able to progress spiritually.

Peace and blessings

[keokutah]

Right, but you were first talking about allowing someone to repeatedly slap you, and I was saying that is not loving or enlightened at all.
The Buddha would have never done that. And Buddhism isn't about believing suffering is a good thing, it's about finding peace amongst suffering. He would have removed himself from the situation and would never give anyone the power to harm him in the first place.
I believe abuse is not initiated by your higher self. Your higher self is loving, it is not a masochist.
Abuse is initiated by the free will of other people. Some people are just jerks, that isn't in your control.

The whole point of Buddhism is to focus within and in the present moment, to escape suffering and humanity in general.

So, that still leaves my question unanswered. But I'm pretty sure the answer is that forgiveness means letting go of harms that have been done to you, it does NOT mean you have to allow it or be OKAY with it.

People can hurt you. Forgiveness simply means moving on from that and finding it in your heart to love them after they've made mistakes. It certainly does not mean that you have to believe what they did was okay, and it certainly does not mean you should become a magnet for abuse, thinking attracting abuse is a good thing to teach you life lessons. If that's your perception, I think you really need to change it because you will never find enlightenment that way, no offence, Buddha teaches us to detach from suffering, not to attach to it.

Then I still wonder how other people who aren't in insolation manage to follow that in every day life. And I'm talking about people who actually practice forgiveness AND who stand up for themselves, not masochists that allow people to harm them continuously.

I'm sure there are many ways you can handle the situation I used as an example, without getting angry AND without allowing the person to harm you. I think that's what people mean when they say "be assertive" not "aggressive" lol.

[seekerAK]

Right, but you were first talking about allowing someone to repeatedly slap you, and I was saying that is not loving or enlightened at all.
The Buddha would have never done that. And Buddhism isn't about believing suffering is a good thing, it's about finding peace amongst suffering. He would have removed himself from the situation and would never give anyone the power to harm him in the first place.
I believe abuse is not initiated by your higher self. Your higher self is loving, it is not a masochist.
Abuse is initiated by the free will of other people. Some people are just jerks, that isn't in your control.

The whole point of Buddhism is to focus within and in the present moment, to escape suffering and humanity in general.

So, that still leaves my question unanswered. But I'm pretty sure the answer is that forgiveness means letting go of harms that have been done to you, it does NOT mean you have to allow it or be OKAY with it.

People can hurt you. Forgiveness simply means moving on from that and finding it in your heart to love them after they've made mistakes. It certainly does not mean that you have to believe what they did was okay, and it certainly does not mean you should become a magnet for abuse, thinking attracting abuse is a good thing to teach you life lessons. If that's your perception, I think you really need to change it because you will never find enlightenment that way, no offence, Buddha teaches us to detach from suffering, not to attach to it.

Then I still wonder how other people who aren't in insolation manage to follow that in every day life. And I'm talking about people who actually practice forgiveness AND who stand up for themselves, not masochists that allow people to harm them continuously.

I'm sure there are many ways you can handle the situation I used as an example, without getting angry AND without allowing the person to harm you. I think that's what people mean when they say "be assertive" not "aggressive" lol.

I can understand what you are saying. Let me state at the outset that our free will allows us to believe or not to believe something and it is not my intention to convince you of my 'beliefs'. Your beliefs are fine even if they are diametrically opposite to other people's beliefs and this is true even if the whole world believes something which differs from your beliefs. To say otherwise and compel them to accept our views would be an infringement of other people's free will. In your current stage of spiritual development you hold views which are right for you at that moment and it is helping you with your journey so far be it for me to state that you should accept my views. I only wrote the response in answer to your comment but not to change your views.

You have raised some points in this post but I will not answer them unless you want to hear my answer. For that I seek your permission: may I respond to your comments in the light of what I have just said?

Peace and blessings

[lemex]

I can understand what you are saying. Let me state at the outset that our free will allows us to believe or not to believe something and it is not my intention to convince you of my 'beliefs'. Your beliefs are fine even if they are diametrically opposite to other people's beliefs and this is true even if the whole world believes something which differs from your beliefs. To say otherwise and compel them to accept our views would be an infringement of other people's free will. In your current stage of spiritual development you hold views which are right for you at that moment and it is helping you with your journey so far be it for me to state that you should accept my views. I only wrote the response in answer to your comment but not to change your views.

You have raised some points in this post but I will not answer them unless you want to hear my answer. For that I seek your permission: may I respond to your comments in the light of what I have just said?

Peace and blessings

So wise seeker.

I never really thought of free-will in the situation brought up. We usually talk about it's merits and avoidance, if it exists. The thought is seen differently (clearer) in higher conscious levels (people) as well. Is understanding why part of being able to forgive and to forgive is to forgive those who contributed to the situation. :smile: I think there is a lot of cause and effect as part of the equation. I would like to hear your continuation. Now personally I would not allow another person to continually strike me as I would control the event but not strike the person. I feel there is communication as part of this.

[keokutah]

I can understand what you are saying. Let me state at the outset that our free will allows us to believe or not to believe something and it is not my intention to convince you of my 'beliefs'. Your beliefs are fine even if they are diametrically opposite to other people's beliefs and this is true even if the whole world believes something which differs from your beliefs. To say otherwise and compel them to accept our views would be an infringement of other people's free will. In your current stage of spiritual development you hold views which are right for you at that moment and it is helping you with your journey so far be it for me to state that you should accept my views. I only wrote the response in answer to your comment but not to change your views.

You have raised some points in this post but I will not answer them unless you want to hear my answer. For that I seek your permission: may I respond to your comments in the light of what I have just said?

Peace and blessings

You don't need to ask my permission to join in on the discussion.

I'd be interested in hearing why you think allowing someone to abuse you continuously is equal to forgiveness and furthermore, enlightenment, and how exactly that relates to Buddhism (you used Buddha as an example which confuses me because I'm a Buddhist and I've never seen that teaching anywhere in Buddhism.) I used to be Christian too, and it sounds more like a Christian teaching (the self-sacrificing behaviour of Jesus Christ, die for people's sins, taking on all the suffering of the world, trying to save and love everybody, etc). Buddhism is basically the opposite of that, it's very focused on living in the present moment and peace.

[seekerAK]

So wise seeker.

I never really thought of free-will in the situation brought up. We usually talk about it's merits and avoidance, if it exists. The thought is seen differently (clearer) in higher conscious levels (people) as well. Is understanding why part of being able to forgive and to forgive is to forgive those who contributed to the situation. :smile: I think there is a lot of cause and effect as part of the equation. I would like to hear your continuation. Now personally I would not allow another person to continually strike me as I would control the event but not strike the person. I feel there is communication as part of this.

Thank you lemex for your kind words.

I gave the example of someone slapping the spiritual traveler in my OP since I was giving the example of what Christ said viz. " If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

As an aside, for the benefit of anyone who cannot understand how the traveler can forgive someone who has physically attacked him it could be any other 'harmful' situation such as when someone steals your new iPhone 7. The principle of forgiveness would also apply and if you are more comfortable with considering that situation than being slapped on the face, please do so.

[Instead of 'the spiritual traveler' I'll use the word 'I' as the attacked person since it's easier than writing 'the traveler' each time].

I live in a country where if this happened to me on the street people would encourage me to fight back and watch the ensuing fight. If I 'won' they would applaud and view me with greater respect.

If I accepted the slap and forgave the attacker I would be viewed as entirely mad; someone would think I'm a masochist and enjoy being attacked, others would think I'm a coward and afraid to fight back. They would be looking at the situation from their own 3rd dimensional view of the world, our places in the world and how we should react to certain situations. (i.e. if we don't fit the mold then there must be something wrong with us).

But their views are totally irrelevant to me in that situation and would not concern me in the slightest.

I would only be concerned with my spiritual progress. (Being on the path is an all-consuming task and requires total dedication to it as you go higher).

This brings up the question of free will. While we are living in 3d consciousness we are free to follow our free will and may respond to the situation according to our level of consciousness. Therefore there's a whole gamut of possible responses starting from violence to asking the person why he attacked me and after listening to him responding accordingly. But in each of those situations we are following our free will which involves making intellectual choices. Therefore the response would not normally come from the heart.

If, however, I have advanced out of the limited 3d way of thinking and behaving and have attained Christ consciousness/unity consciousness I would be in a stage where I have surrendered totally to the source/ my higher self. This will be hard for some people to wrap their heads around or accept but, having surrendered to the source, I will be following the will of source in every action or response.

It does not mean I wouldn't be able to follow my own free will and have to follow what my higher self is guiding me to do. But the danger here is if I respond by rejecting the guidance of my higher self I would basically be leaving the spiritual path and return to a mundane 3d existence where I have lost Christ consciousness (which is possible to do at any stage of the path upon making a conscious decision not to listen to one's higher self).

Therefore, the wiser path would be to listen to what the source guides me to do through my heart. The source would have presented the situation for me as a learning experience and, as you rightly pointed out, it involves cause and effect.

If I decide to listen to source then I would follow its guidance because the source knows better than me what is best for my spiritual growth. The decision to follow source's guidance would come almost immediately since I would be 'living in the moment'. (I cannot waste time thinking about what to do since I would lose the moment and my response and derived benefit would be more tepid in a spiritual sense). At the stage of unity consciousness a person is always living in the moment and that allows for rapid spiritual progress since every action you do every minute of the day becomes an opportunity for learning and advancement.

If it's a lesson early on the spiritual path I may walk away without taking any action and forgive the person in my mind later on. I would learn from this since I'd know that this wasn't an accident since I'd know nothing happens by chance. Here, I need to mention that at this stage of one's spiritual advancement, the universe would be in total harmony with that person. Therefore, I was meant to be slapped at that point in my life and the lesson would become obvious to me. The 'reward' for my action would be an increased feeling of love from the source in my heart which would let me know I did the right thing.

If I were a little more advanced on the path: I would not only accept the slap at that moment but also express my forgiveness to him and walk on.

Again, being a little more advanced: I would do the above and offer him my other cheek in case he wanted to slap me again and I would forgive him and walk on.

Again, a little further on the path: I would do the above and, in addition to forgiving him, I would tell him I loved him and allow him to continue the attack if he so desired.

But I would be constantly in touch with source and I could stop the attack at any time by just thinking that I have had enough for the time being and the attack would stop instantly. I would have that ability at that stage of my spiritual evolution. That is what I meant when, in an earlier post I mentioned that source does not tax an individual who is on the path and close to it more than he can bear. In fact if I wished the attacker to repent and turn to the light it would happen then since I would be in constant loving communion with source and the source would lovingly grant me any wish I made the moment I made it. My will would be inextricably linked with the will of the source as long as I am on the path so its wish for me would also be my wish for myself.

Therefore I would not ask the source to not present me with such learning opportunities. To do so would be to tell it I don't want to advance; not wanting to advance would mean I couldn't get closer to the source. For me getting closer to the source would then be my only reason for living since as you get closer and closer the love the source has for you increases more and more in your heart; it can reach such an extent that you will feel that your heart cannot bear it and it will burst. Then the source expands your heart so it is capable of bearing greater amounts of love.

So, to forgive someone for slapping me would be a small 'price to pay' to experience more of that love.

Peace and blessings

[seekerAK]

You don't need to ask my permission to join in on the discussion.

I'd be interested in hearing why you think allowing someone to abuse you continuously is equal to forgiveness and furthermore, enlightenment, and how exactly that relates to Buddhism (you used Buddha as an example which confuses me because I'm a Buddhist and I've never seen that teaching anywhere in Buddhism.) I used to be Christian too, and it sounds more like a Christian teaching (the self-sacrificing behaviour of Jesus Christ, die for people's sins, taking on all the suffering of the world, trying to save and love everybody, etc). Buddhism is basically the opposite of that, it's very focused on living in the present moment and peace.

Thank you. I used Buddha's name only as an example of someone who had attained enlightenment as well as Christ and St Francis of Assisi. I could have used any number of other names of ascended masters if I chose to but these 3 names sprang readily to mind and I thought of them as being familiar to most readers of the forum. I could just as easily have used the name Babaji whom I have read about and highly respect but I'm not from a Hindu background and have less knowledge about Hinduism than about Christianity, Islam and Judaism. It's true I don't know much about Buddhism but I know enough to know that he was a Hindu prince before he wanted to know what caused suffering and set out on his spiritual quest where he finally reached enlightenment. I did not in any way mean to misrepresent him and attribute the quality of forgiveness to him if that is something he did not preach or believe in. I would be grateful if you would enlighten me on his position.

I have elaborated a little in the above post about why if I were in Christ consciousness I would react the way I mentioned and I may have answered some of your questions.

I also didn't state that this is the only way to reach enlightenment: there are as many paths to enlightenment as there are sands on the beaches of the earth. The source does not limit us to following only one path. We are free to choose the path that suits us and each individual's path is unique to himself. This I believe in. If you feel that there is only one path/ way to enlightenment then you are free to continue believing that and I am not here to change your belief system.

In fact I'd like to give a simple example which differs slightly from the one I hope I would follow if presented with the opportunity.

Consider John is walking along the street when a stranger suddenly slaps him. He does not know the stranger but the stranger knows him because John slept with his wife. Here, the stranger may feel justified in slapping John. John would probably react by slapping the stranger back and as we all know, that would lead to a cycle of violence. The stranger and John will respond to each provocation with violence until eventually let's say, for example, John accidentally kills the stranger by pushing him into the path of on-rushing traffic. Now this could have been the proper outcome if, for example, the stranger was a serial killer. In this case John's violent reaction would have led to the death of a serial killer who would have continued killing. Therefore, in this case, John's not forgiving the stranger for the initial attack turned out to be the right course of action. Here John living in his 3d reality with no interest in spiritual growth brought about a result that source desired.

Peace and blessings

[keokutah]

Ok thanks for explaining, I'm still a little confused as to why you would allow someone to abuse you and does that not harm you physically, emotionally, spiritually? It's just a little concerning to me, what if you are allowing someone to attack you and they accidentally injure you really badly or kill you even?
And when you say that you think you have had enough the attack would stop, has that actually happened to you in real life? Can you give me a real life scenario that actually happened, maybe that would make more sense.

Also, why does the serial killer not deserve forgiveness?

The Buddha apparently spent his life seeking peace and the answer to ending all suffering in the world, and he spent years mastering all religions and faiths, studying and traveling everywhere to find the answer. What he found is that it's impossible to end all suffering in the world, but you can still find peace through the art of zen Buddhist meditation.
Which is literally just existing in the present moment, focusing on the here and now.
So forgiveness to a Buddhist would simply be letting go and detaching oneself from whatever is causing harm.

It's a way of life, not a religion and to some people it is seen as quite selfish.
Because a lot of religious people follow such morals as "you must do everything in your power to help people" and buddhism is the opposite of that. It's more like, detach from people, stop caring about the world around you and focus on yourself to find true inner peace LoL.

Now, Jesus Christ was the opposite of selfish, he was selfless, and unfortunately that got him killed. Many people believe that is noble, he died for our sins.

I am personally trying to strive for a balance between the two extremes, that is what I would like to achieve some day.
If I tip over too much to one side, then it causes problems either way, at least for me. Being too caring of others, not caring enough of myself. Or caring too much for myself and not enough for others, vice versa.

[seekerAK]

Ok thanks for explaining, I'm still a little confused as to why you would allow someone to abuse you and does that not harm you physically, emotionally, spiritually? It's just a little concerning to me, what if you are allowing someone to attack you and they accidentally injure you really badly or kill you even?
And when you say that you think you have had enough the attack would stop, has that actually happened to you in real life? Can you give me a real life scenario that actually happened, maybe that would make more sense.

Also, why does the serial killer not deserve forgiveness?

The Buddha apparently spent his life seeking peace and the answer to ending all suffering in the world, and he spent years mastering all religions and faiths, studying and traveling everywhere to find the answer. What he found is that it's impossible to end all suffering in the world, but you can still find peace through the art of zen Buddhist meditation.
Which is literally just existing in the present moment, focusing on the here and now.
So forgiveness to a Buddhist would simply be letting go and detaching oneself from whatever is causing harm.

It's a way of life, not a religion and to some people it is seen as quite selfish.
Because a lot of religious people follow such morals as "you must do everything in your power to help people" and buddhism is the opposite of that. It's more like, detach from people, stop caring about the world around you and focus on yourself to find true inner peace LoL.

Now, Jesus Christ was the opposite of selfish, he was selfless, and unfortunately that got him killed. Many people believe that is noble, he died for our sins.

I am personally trying to strive for a balance between the two extremes, that is what I would like to achieve some day.
If I tip over too much to one side, then it causes problems either way, at least for me. Being too caring of others, not caring enough of myself. Or caring too much for myself and not enough for others, vice versa.

Thank you for your explanation on Buddhism.

Quote:" focus on yourself to find true inner peace". I find this interesting because it is something I also believe and practise when I'm on the spiritual path and from experience I can say it works well. I can see how people would view this as being selfish but I don't place much value on labels or what people think of my actions/lack of actions so it doesn't bother me. I think on any spiritual path a person needs to focus on himself and go into his heart to find the answers to all his questions. Once you have been able to connect with the source/ higher self in your heart, peace would result as a consequence because we are connecting back to source from where we all came.

To us it is the real 'home' as opposed to the current world with its material attachments, worldly ambitions, greed, hatred, violence, etc. We are all on the same evolutionary journey as spiritual beings whether we know it or not; it just takes longer for some than for others but everyone deserves our love and respect since at the level of source we are all one.

Quote:'letting go and detaching oneself from whatever is causing harm.' Basically I think this is what I do when I forgive someone. It is not something I necessarily voice especially if the person lives somewhere else and our paths no longer cross.

Quote: 'Also, why does the serial killer not deserve forgiveness?'

If I were the individual slapped by this person I hope my response would be to forgive him but I think most people in the world who are not vibrating at a high level of consciousness would not. They would respond from their own 3d mentality and may kill the person in a fight unaware of the fact that they had just killed a serial killer. In that case, wouldn't source have worked through someone to fulfill source's design in the grand scheme of things?

I understand why you would think I am being abused if I let someone slap me. That was just an example I cited to show where I would forgive the person as long as I am on the spiritual path at that moment. If I were not on the path and not interested in my spiritual evolution, I would not forgive him.

Having said that, let me reiterate why in that situation my desire may be to forgive him. It would be so I could grow further on my spiritual journey. The attacker would merely be a catalyst for this growth that I would desire. As you pointed out, life is full of suffering and being on the spiritual path doesn't mean the suffering will suddenly end.

The difference is that a normal Joe would be at the mercy of circumstances and experience suffering every time something 'harmful' happened to him. Whether it be someone eating his ice-cream at the office while he's not nearby, to someone attacking him on the street, his life is full of suffering.

However, if I am sufficiently advanced on the spiritual path I could choose the right circumstance to experience my suffering but it would not be a random event; it would be what I would desire as a catalyst for spiritual evolution. In my case suffering would be a transformative experience of my choice. That is, I would have personal power to manifest my own catalysts according to my requirements; this would happen when I would be sufficiently advanced on the path. The source would cooperate with me to provide me with what I need for my continued growth and I would cooperate with source to desire that growth.

This brings me to a new point and it may answer this question: 'And when you say that you think you have had enough the attack would stop'

When I am sufficiently advanced I would not only be able to choose the desired catalyst but would have it occurring only when I'm ready for it. I would be living 'in the now' or in the moment so I would experience synchronicities from one minute to the next.

I'd like to quote Cobra on 'time' since this is relevant here and is quite accurate. In the higher dimensions "time is experienced as a flow of energy, not so much as a linear concept with past, present and future but it's more like eternal now which still moves and there is a time vector from the past to the present and into the future. But it is experienced more multidimensionally with much greater understanding of cause and effect of our actions."

Since I would be vibrating at Christ/unity consciousness I would actually be living in the 5th dimension (or maybe the sixth) and I would experience time as defined above. I would not only be aware of the approaching catalyst (that is, in my example, the attacker slapping me) before it happened (clairvoyance) since I would have brought it into manifestation with the cooperation of source but I would also, on a multidimensional level, be aware of the infinite possibilities of my action/lack of action and how the attacker would respond to me in each situation. Knowing this I would desire the best possible result not only for myself but also for the attacker. I would be in complete control at all times of the situation and bring about the best outcome at that time.

This brings up another point: someone who is living in 5th or higher dimension ( Ra uses the word 'density') is not under the power of any number of individuals or authority. By the very nature of his higher dimensional vibration all 3d dimensional life would be subjugated to his power. (This may hard for some people to comprehend and here I think experience would be a great teacher). But because all 3rd dimensional life on earth would submit to me I would have power over how and what people can do to me. So, if I desired the attacker not to attack me, he could not do it or if I desired he only slap me once, he could not slap me twice even if he wanted to; he would basically lack the power and since I would be in total control of the situation throughout the whole experience he could not really do much harm to me or kill me unless I desired him to do so. If it were my desire to bring about a spiritual transformation in him from the incident I would desire him to repent for his action. The source could then make him feel fear (if that is the appropriate catalyst for his transformation) and he would fall at my feet and beg forgiveness. Or,if the source desired to transform him through love, the attacker would feel an over-whelming sense of love coming from me and that would also be a catalyst for his spiritual transformation. He may view me as a saint and want to become my follower. This has happened in the past in the lives of numerous saints from whatever religious background.

There would no emotional harm to me because how a person views me or reacts to me would not be relevant to me. At this stage of advancement the love that source feels for me would only intensify in my heart and the spiritual bliss I would be in would be proof enough that I was not harmed spiritually. Most of what I have written in the past few posts on this thread I have learnt from past experiences while on a certain spiritual path (except being slapped on the street by a stranger) and therefore know that if I have put my full trust in source, source would not let me down. It's a difficult path of making sacrifices but IMO the spiritual bliss, happiness, peace, joy, love from the source make it all worth it.

Peace and blessings

[lemex]

Quote:'letting go and detaching oneself from whatever is causing harm.' Basically I think this is what I do when I forgive someone. It is not something I necessarily voice especially if the person lives somewhere else and our paths no longer cross.


MY own quote would be, letting go and focus oneself on whatever is causing harm. To move "from" is to separate and withdraw. Does anyone focus on which seems to be the thought. The thing is taking the slap may advance you, but not the other person? What of the element of teaching. Is there a lesson for both and is this a valid thought. I tend to forgive because I think I understand someone. Making the world a better place seems to be missing from much spiritual thought.

[keokutah]

Okay, I understand now, you're talking about awareness of all possible scenarios that could result from an action, and choosing the best outcome for everyone involved. In some situations it may be best to not defend oneself.

That reminds me of a discussion I had with Sirian ET beings. Forgive me if this is something you don't believe in LoL, it is relevant to the discussion though. They are incredibly more advanced and way more spiritually enlightened than people on earth, and the warriors are only trained in non-aggressive self-defence because they are a non-violent people.
When it comes to any type of intervention, or any action, especially when it involves earth, they are aware of every single scenario and possibility, they run through all these scenarios before making important decisions that may change things. That is how they knew that if they were to show themselves to humans, most scenarios turned out badly.

However, if they were to come to earth (and they do), the low frequencies would greatly affect them, because they are not used to it. They actually have to adjust and "descend" quite a bit in order to be here, which still makes them more spiritually advanced than anyone here, but it is challenging for them. But because they believe in non-violence and they are not used to violence, they would not be able to defend themselves against psychopathic humans and would be harmed.

And even here on earth, where we are existing amongst people who are vibrating at many different levels, it's very chaotic because some of those levels don't mesh very well.

Regardless, I feel like one of the most important things is to have faith that source will take care of you no matter what, and it's great that you do that.

[Tigerlily3]

I suffered alot of family abuse growing up, and alot of it went well into adulthood. I was such a sweet, shy, tender and caring child, that as I look back on the situations, can't understand why I became a target child.My father greatly abused, and I feel my mother allowed it so she would not be targeted.She is in denial now when faced with questions by her children, but I know she is completely aware of everything. .So now the parents are seniors..I was somehow appointed caretaker of them.So here comes the forgiveness part.I have worked on myself alot, got more into spirituality, meditation, Christ awareness, different spiritual roads and such.Through meditation I got to a point of letting go of what they did.I can't change their past actions, but I gained power and wisdom, and do know, and have told them to their faces, I will not be their target or verbal punching bag EVER again.The letting go I honestly think makes you feel better, because you are not carrying that constant anger 24 hours a day.I would wake up angry, think about what happened to me all day long, and go to bed carrying that same anger and hate into the next day..Did they care? NO..Abusive people really don't think anything is wrong with their actions *most* of the time..If they did, they most likely would not act that way. So I do believe forgiveness helps heal, regardless if you are religious, spiritual or not, because you are not carrying that persons wrong.They are responsible for their harm, as are we all, that is dumped.But my past, and words, or things they did DO still pop up if I am triggered on occasions. We can forgive all we want, but I don't think we forget. I still have some issues. Some sad moments..But I truly do just believe in letting go of all that painful junk, with hopes it will be transmuted into light, because there really is no sense in festering about something we can't change.I also do believe there is cause for revenge at times, especially if it is teaching a valuable lesson..Just my thoughts..Peace to all. ♡

[seekerAK]

MY own quote would be, letting go and focus oneself on whatever is causing harm. To move "from" is to separate and withdraw. Does anyone focus on which seems to be the thought. The thing is taking the slap may advance you, but not the other person? What of the element of teaching. Is there a lesson for both and is this a valid thought. I tend to forgive because I think I understand someone. Making the world a better place seems to be missing from much spiritual thought.

You have raised a very interesting point.

Yes, I can see how to separate and withdraw would not really be the final solution.

I'd like to give this example: A few years ago a friend and colleague of mine took $50,000 from me to invest in a joint business venture in another country with his friend as the principal caretaker. They kept all the money and profits for themselves without giving anything to me. I had forgiven him (and his friend) without telling him so but started to avoid him when our paths crossed. One reason was I longer thought of him as a friend but as a deceitful person whom I did not want to associate with. I can see an element of unforgiveness still remains. Here what would be the harmful thought and the solution?

[seekerAK]

Okay, I understand now, you're talking about awareness of all possible scenarios that could result from an action, and choosing the best outcome for everyone involved. In some situations it may be best to not defend oneself.

That reminds me of a discussion I had with Sirian ET beings. Forgive me if this is something you don't believe in LoL, it is relevant to the discussion though. They are incredibly more advanced and way more spiritually enlightened than people on earth, and the warriors are only trained in non-aggressive self-defence because they are a non-violent people.
When it comes to any type of intervention, or any action, especially when it involves earth, they are aware of every single scenario and possibility, they run through all these scenarios before making important decisions that may change things. That is how they knew that if they were to show themselves to humans, most scenarios turned out badly.

However, if they were to come to earth (and they do), the low frequencies would greatly affect them, because they are not used to it. They actually have to adjust and "descend" quite a bit in order to be here, which still makes them more spiritually advanced than anyone here, but it is challenging for them. But because they believe in non-violence and they are not used to violence, they would not be able to defend themselves against psychopathic humans and would be harmed.

And even here on earth, where we are existing amongst people who are vibrating at many different levels, it's very chaotic because some of those levels don't mesh very well.

Regardless, I feel like one of the most important things is to have faith that source will take care of you no matter what, and it's great that you do that.

A very interesting post and I'm glad you posted it. I myself believe their are highly advanced ETs such as Ra who are at 6th density. According to Ra our higher selves are at 6th density moving on to the 7th.

How advanced ETs may have been involved with us from the beginning of our creation and how much they may be interfering with us now (especially the negative ETs) is something most of us would care not to contemplate.

It is also true that advanced species lower their vibration when coming to earth and I can see how they wouldn't like it. It would be like descending from paradise into hell.

This brings up an interesting concept relating to the current transformations going on on earth and with humanity's rise to 4th and 5th densities. I apologize if you don't believe in this. I mention it because if the earth is increasing its vibration to prepare for humanity's ascension into the 5th density would it be possible for 3rd density humans (who don't want to ascend) to live side by side with 5th density humans? It could present difficulties where 3rd density humans are going around committing 'harm' to 5th density humans because they don't understand them and may not like them. The 5th density humans would forgive them each time and respond with love.

[seekerAK]

We can forgive all we want, but I don't think we forget.

I agree that forgetting is probably not possible since we carry a lot of memories through life and remembering 'harmful' actions from others are part of those memories and may bring up old wounds.

It especially hurts if the person is your parent. But the person has come to earth and is having a human experience. In that sense he is no different from us and has his own failings. If he cannot handle life and what life has thrown at him it creates suffering. He may be in pain from past traumas suffered at the hands of someone else. If he mistreats others it is probably because of the pain he is in. Therefore, viewing the person with compassion and understanding and loving the person (especially if the person is a parent) for anything good he did for us help.

[lemex]

Letting go and focus oneself on whatever is causing harm. To move "from" is to separate and withdraw.




When I said this, my thought was based on the idea of withdraw. My philosophy is if a person does not withdraw from society to remain is to be a part of society. A person can choose to separate, but not partial separation, it doesn't work. I am talking about interacting in society. Unless a person withdraws from society all are part of society and it's betterment imm, there is a best, or least better way to live. :smile: It is my understanding some withdraw just for the reason above and so can forgive because they are sheltered from society.

IMO forgiving can be part of the rules of society, though society can go too far and which are not based in forgiving. There seem to be two opposites going on, too much forgiving or too little. I happen to see two sides here, not just one. Anyway, we are talking about forgiving and forgiving is something that normally happens over many years, 10, 20, 30. And there always seems to be some conflict involve. Anyway, some of the things I see in addition. Eternal forgiveness or eternal punishment also applies here.

Though hard to reconcile, forgiving does not avoid any part of the question. What does no forgiving lead to? We know!

[keokutah]

A very interesting post and I'm glad you posted it. I myself believe their are highly advanced ETs such as Ra who are at 6th density. According to Ra our higher selves are at 6th density moving on to the 7th.

How advanced ETs may have been involved with us from the beginning of our creation and how much they may be interfering with us now (especially the negative ETs) is something most of us would care not to contemplate.

It is also true that advanced species lower their vibration when coming to earth and I can see how they wouldn't like it. It would be like descending from paradise into hell.

This brings up an interesting concept relating to the current transformations going on on earth and with humanity's rise to 4th and 5th densities. I apologize if you don't believe in this. I mention it because if the earth is increasing its vibration to prepare for humanity's ascension into the 5th density would it be possible for 3rd density humans (who don't want to ascend) to live side by side with 5th density humans? It could present difficulties where 3rd density humans are going around committing 'harm' to 5th density humans because they don't understand them and may not like them. The 5th density humans would forgive them each time and respond with love.

Yeah I do believe in that too. ET's told me that in regards to dimensional frequencies there's currently people existing in 3rd dimensional reality all the way up to 36d. The earth itself is merging into 5d, but people are all at widely different levels.

Once you get to a high enough frequency even your presence is harmful to people of lower levels, because even your presence can interfere with their progression.

Progression into the higher dimensions isn't actually an upward ascension, it's actually demonstrated really well in all sacred geometry if you can download it into your brain, such as the kaballah tree of life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(Kabbalah)
Once you get past the primordial dimensions, which everyone classifies as "enlightenment" it doesn't just stop there, it continues in a never ending cycle.
But since we are dealing with the sacred number 3, which stands for the trinity, and basically 2 earths merging into one, that creates 3.
There are 12 dimensions in total. So then you have 12+12+12=36.
36 dimensions in total for New Earth.
On the tree of life, you can see that it continues. Once you ascend to the top, you descend again but this time carrying with you the enlightenment you obtained, being able to go down into the lower dimensions without the lower dimensions bothering you. You then proceed to go back up again, once you've reached the 36th dimension, which is the destination for this time period, not an end point at all... because time continuously cycles, and eventually earth and everything alive on it will descend again, since it's an infant planet, and very unstable.
I don't know if any of that will make sense to anyone but it's interesting nonetheless.

Oh but the whole reason I mentioned it though is because it's a weird time frame where so many different levels are coexisting, and it isn't actually possible for them to coexist in harmony yet. It'll eventually balance out but there's a lot of chaos and disharmony now.

[seekerAK]

When I said this, my thought was based on the idea of withdraw. My philosophy is if a person does not withdraw from society to remain is to be a part of society. A person can choose to separate, but not partial separation, it doesn't work. I am talking about interacting in society. Unless a person withdraws from society all are part of society and it's betterment imm, there is a best, or least better way to live. :smile: It is my understanding some withdraw just for the reason above and so can forgive because they are sheltered from society.

IMO forgiving can be part of the rules of society, though society can go too far and which are not based in forgiving. There seem to be two opposites going on, too much forgiving or too little. I happen to see two sides here, not just one. Anyway, we are talking about forgiving and forgiving is something that normally happens over many years, 10, 20, 30. And there always seems to be some conflict involve. Anyway, some of the things I see in addition. Eternal forgiveness or eternal punishment also applies here.

Though hard to reconcile, forgiving does not avoid any part of the question. What does no forgiving lead to? We know!

Thanks for the clarification. I see how total withdrawal from society would not only prevent the 'hermit' from not having further 'harmful' experiences where the question of forgiving/not forgiving would arise but may make it easier for him to forgive people for past 'hurts'. Most of us, I think are in between the two extremes of totally forgiving (and therefore being totally free from any vestiges of resentment) and not forgiving at all.

I see the cause and effect: the 'harm' experienced --- the emotional 'crisis' in the affected individual ---- the solution to resolve the crisis.

Here the solution (to return to the pre-hurt state) may not be obvious to many of us and we may stumble our way to finding the answer. I think this is where some of us may believe that revenge would provide the solution. Trying to return the 'hurt' in equal measure is normally not possible due to circumstances.

A simple example (I apologize to anyone if my example is too extreme but I use it only because talking about revenge means we should consider it for all situations whether it would constitute a serious crime or not): Let us say someone has killed my son but there is no legal evidence to have him arrested and tried for murder.

The best 'revenge' would be for me to kill his son. But if the person has fled and cannot be traced and I don't know if I can find his son or whether he even has a son would present the first problem. I may spend the rest of my life and wealth trying to find this elusive individual.

Second scenario: I know where he lives and that he has a son but (other than the obvious legal issues such as being caught and sent to prison for the murder/attempted murder), I would not know how the situation would pan out. What if I am overpowered and killed? I would have failed.

Third scenario: I kill the person's son and think I will be happy because I have exacted my revenge.
But this would not only not bring my son back to life I believe it would not remove the grief and therefore the original hurt would still remain. In addition to that, I don't know how the memory of my killing could haunt me for the rest of my life. This would be a new problem I would not have envisaged and would 'require' a solution which may be difficult to find.

So, I have realized I cannot choose revenge as my solution. Which would make me think of hating the person for the rest of my life. Would this be my solution? From experience I know hating someone does not bring me happiness and may always give rise to thoughts of revenge and cursing the person (if I believe that will help) whenever I think of the hurt. In my experience I have found that this causes me to experience dark depression and therefore would not be my solution.

Then the only thing remaining would be to forgive him (I am familiar with this so I prefer to talk about forgiveness as opposed to 'letting go' although I think they may both be the same thing). Now, again from experience I know that forgiving is not as simple as just to say "I forgive you" but that would be a starting point. This may be the furthest a person would be willing to go.

But if the 'hurt' resurfaces every time I think of my son then there are vestiges of 'unforgiveness' still remaining and I would not have found my solution.

So now I would have to go deeper into my heart to find the answer. This answer (please remember I speak only for myself and not anyone else) would be that I need to understand the person who inflicted the 'harm' and why he did it. Understanding the person would make me realize that he is just a normal human being like me and has his own suffering/pain that he is trying to deal with in the manner that his level of consciousness allows. And I cannot blame him for that. We cannot dictate to people what level of consciousness they should have reached. To do so would be an infringement of his free will since he is entirely free, due to the law of free will, to learn his lessons at his pace.

Knowing this would then lead me to feel compassion for him and love. Therefore, I believe compassion and love go hand in hand with forgiveness. I believe that they may be inextricably linked so true forgiveness would not be possible without compassion and love.

I believe (again this is only my belief so please no one be offended by this) source/my higher self would have provided me with the original catalyst (the murder of my son) to learn this lesson. I would not be required to learn this lesson again in my journey of spiritual evolution since the lessons we learn/wisdom we attain in this carnation always remain with us even after death when we have left the physical vehicle behind.

To consider the case of the attacker: How does he benefit? Firstly, his benefit would depend on his orientation. If he is negatively oriented he would benefit by learning a lesson that will help him decide whether to continue further on his journey along the negatively orientated path or change his orientation to become positively orientated. His soul would certainly have learnt a lesson from the experience although that may not be apparent to him or the outsider. In either case my son would have provided him the opportunity to learn lesson(s) that would help him in his (the attacker's) journey.

Where does that leave my son? Again I apologize if this offends anyone (my intention is not to cause offence). My son would have accepted this while making his soul contract before he came to earth to be murdered by the attacker and the attacker would have agreed to help him by killing him (an agreement for mutual benefit).

One may ask why on earth would my son want to be murdered? The answer is: to experience being murdered and the attacker would have wanted to have the experience of killing someone. I believe that we have all come from the source to experience life in 3rd dimension/density. This involves having experiences. It may not be desirable to limit the experiences since to do so, would be to limit the lessons which we could take away and thus leave gaps in the evolution of our souls not only on this earth but in continued incarnations. Like keokutah pointed out in his above post the spiritual journey is never-ending. This 3rd density world presents us with very 'difficult' catalysts to learn from. But then that would be an another topic in itself.

[CarolineD]

We have to forgive others to release ourselves

[Miss Hepburn]

We have to forgive others to release ourselves Yes! And the release has many layers.

Sure, it releases our minds from thoughts of anger, retribution, images
of what we would like to do to them next time we see them,
gossiping about them...thus, the bad chemicals that go along with
dis-ease over the situation.

The spiritual aspect slows our progress hugely.
2 things can not occupy the same place...so if your cup is filled with
anger/lack of forgiveness/ruminating about the incident
you can not be filled with true happiness and freedom/ the love of God...not truly...not fully.

When medium James Von Praagh was with a client, a nun (deceased from the Other Side) was standing behind him.
She was crying for the client's forgiveness for the wrongs she did in school to him.
When the client did...James speaks to the reader saying..."He has no idea what he has just done."
He has freed this soul to be able to move ON!
Guilt and shame (can) keep spirits from further progress.

Over and over this forgiveness scenario played a part in his sessions between the living
and the deceased...same with Sylvia Browne's sessions.

Ah, forgiveness...what freedom for all involved.

People make mistakes, they act out, they do stupid things...it is often
when we take it too personally, (self-centeredness, it's all about me),
that it becomes hard to forgive.
When we place ourselves in that person's messed up 'acting out' space,
from their inner turmoil and pain...
we take it in a detached, 'observer' mode, much easier.

In ACIM, it is clear...if you don't forgive...you'll be coming back 'here'.
So....let go of other people's issues that they act out, sometimes on you.
That includes simple rudeness, deliberate hurtfulness, job blocking/sabotage,
stealing your wife
anything...or the alternative is playing out scenarios again and again 'here' till you do!

[naturesflow]

I gather very few people here have had anything traumatising to forgive. Maybe hurts, minor crimes. That's easy. Beyond that only the foolish would want the culprit to feel their behaviour was all right and should be allowed to be repeated. There are people in my town who don't risk going out alone of a night (including me) because marauding nasty people can bring harm to them.

One would love to erase such machinations from society / the streets. Approving the culprits behaviour is not the way.

People might well forgive easily but can they forget? And if they can't forget, have they forgiven at all?

It's lovely and comfortable living in this new age spiritual bubble but just get yourself raped at knifepoint or beaten up for your wallet to get a druggie his next fix and you might find it harder. We had a girl in the zumba class who was raped and as a result contracted HIV. So...she should just forgive???
She hasn't even got the will to return to the class and obviously can't now form a relationship where sex might be likely.
Claiming she should forgive is just a sour joke.

Get real, people.

...


This is the reality of life in so many ways life plays out with people harming, hurting others Lorelyen. So you show how difficult and real, life can be in ways quite disturbing, as innocent people just trying to live the life can endure.

The nature of others and their own personal experience, is a process unto them and their close connections who walk with them. So in my view this process is unique to each person walking through their own life.

Their may be no requirement for another to forgive in their process. It may not even come into the picture for their journey through their experience. Yet all those who believe in forgiveness may require it themselves, because they see it necessary for their own process. They see it necessary for their own process in their own unique experience. We cannot speak for another's process.

Because every experience is unique and supports the whole as it is and requires to be.

So your right in my view.

We do need to be more informed about the reality of life and forgiveness itself.

Humans naturally once they discover a way out, a way that means something to them and their journey, a term that fits something they know to be, something that they give meaning too and require, that naturally this life is only about that alone and all of us need to be engaged this way.

This life is about many ways. Many process's and many experiences. Get to know them for real and let go of ideas of your own way as being the way, you give others permission to do it their way without interference inciting what the real needs are for them.

[naturesflow]

Forgiveness, we all know is one of the greatest virtues but it also happens to be one of the hardest things to do.

Holding on to a perceived injustice creates feelings on anger, bitterness/ resentment and the desire for revenge.

These feelings arise every time you remember the situation or the person who caused them in the first place.

Many people believe that the person who caused the hurt is the one in need of forgiveness and by forgiving him you are doing him a favour.

But the person doing the forgiving can himself benefit greatly: he will lose the feelings of anger, resentment, desire for revenge and these will be replaced with feelings of joy and peace in his heart.

He will also be letting go of karma and will not need to learn that lesson in a future carnation.

Holding onto those negative feelings will stymie a person's spiritual progress and prevent his reaching enlightenment. Even if a person isn't interested in attaining enlightenment, the negative feelings can grow and lead to a further growth in negativity in a person. That can then easily lead to depression and, in extreme cases, suicidal thoughts.

We may go around in our daily lives thinking that if we do not harm others we will not be harmed and find a sense of security in such thoughts.

However, if you are not as forgiving as Christ was you will invariably be presented with lessons which will test your ability to forgive. It may be a small incident where someone caused you offense because he disagreed with you. Or it could be something much more 'serious' where someone robbed you of all your wealth.

Whatever the incident, if it causes you to feel anger and resentment, etc it means you need that lesson at that point in your life so you can learn and grow from the experience. That is, the universe is presenting you an opportunity to move closer to the light.

When you decide to sincerely forgive the person you will feel a weight being lifted from your heart and can continue with your growth. Sending thoughts of love to that person can help greatly at this stage.

That is why Christ said, " If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." He was delivering the message of forgiveness.

Turning the other cheek so the person can slap you there also would show that not only have you forgiven him but you are presenting him with an opportunity to repeat his action. In most cases a person who is being freely offered such an opportunity will not be able to keep it up before his heart melts and he experiences a personal transformation.


Peace and blessings and love to all


Religion and beliefs create many things.

Sometimes people just feel things and move through them freely, without even needing to consider forgiveness as a point in process. Things happen, they move through it as they can and will their own way.

They just get on with/deal with life with what is there.

The stories we as humans create around other human ways, can naturally omit the many natures of humans as they are and can be.

Some people don't have to move through this kind of process your showing.

I know people who can shift perspective without the need to enter into this awareness. Their life and choices become their process and it may not even need to be brought into the picture.

I know people who do use it and face the reality of all this through their conditioned minds and beliefs as being a requirement.

So for me their is no one way in process. Sometimes the way is just life playing out as it will for itself, nothing more.

What determines much of the process is more than just forgiveness alone.

The whole movement of life together brings about many aspects from that whole, we in our piece cannot say what moves and is created, what needs and requirements are in those pieces or aspects in their own unique experience.

[Lorelyen]

^^^ Through another topic here I was invited to watch a video on chakra-unblocking. It was posited that every chakra was blocked by fears, guilt and the like for which the practitioner had to forgive themselves. And I thought if this is the starting point then people may have to look for fear and guilt that may not be relevant in their modus operandi.

The video was for the young and it seemed as if a process of brainwashing was being set up, as if people should be weighed down with fear, guilt and stuff, merely so they can embark on a programme of spiritual refinement.

....

[naturesflow]

^^^ Through another topic here I was invited to watch a video on chakra-unblocking. It was posited that every chakra was blocked by fears, guilt and the like for which the practitioner had to forgive themselves. And I thought if this is the starting point then people may have to look for fear and guilt that may not be relevant in their modus operandi.

The video was for the young and it seemed as if a process of brainwashing was being set up, as if people should be weighed down with fear, guilt and stuff, merely so they can embark on a programme of spiritual refinement.

....


Fear and guilt, shame, judgment and probably others in relation to what has been set up initially in the foundation of the one requiring to see that forgiveness is necessary.

As someone who was caught up in all this, I understand in my own personal process all that came into the picture of my journey. Conditioned beliefs ingrained through religious models and parents caught up in their beliefs hit most of that home in me.

When you are free from all that. There is much more at play in understanding each journey at play of itself, each process at play caught up in others process. What that means is related through the one who brings meaning to it their way.

Personal responsibility if one understands the deeper relationships in themselves in relation to how we understand and build a deeper awareness of all life, would if it has moved through this see and open to the full nature of life in themselves, would not use forgiveness as a focus but empathy and understanding, which would extend to their needs not the one I make it to be.

In this understanding there is no *need* for me to set down what is important to their process, but to be aware of the need of the one experiencing. My focus and need is not theirs to say. If I am truly listening to the needs of others, I would know in myself their need, if I was aware in myself through empathic understanding and support, not knowledge and process that only I know to be true, my immediate connection would be, I don't know what this person requires. They will show me. I will support them in their need space, if I am truly open to them without my own ideas in needs involved.

[Lorelyen]

Fear and guilt, shame, judgment and probably others in relation to what has been set up initially in the foundation of the one requiring to see that forgiveness is necessary.

As someone who was caught up in all this, I understand in my own personal process all that came into the picture of my journey. Conditioned beliefs ingrained through religious models and parents caught up in their beliefs hit most of that home in me.

When you are free from all that. There is much more at play in understanding each journey at play of itself, each process at play caught up in others process. What that means is related through the one who brings meaning to it their way.

Personal responsibility if one understands the deeper relationships in themselves in relation to how we understand and build a deeper awareness of all life, would if it has moved through this see and open to the full nature of life in themselves, would not use forgiveness as a focus but empathy and understanding, which would extend to their needs not the one I make it to be.

In this understanding there is no *need* for me to set down what is important to their process, but to be aware of the need of the one experiencing. My focus and need is not theirs to say. If I am truly listening to the needs of others, I would know in myself their need, if I was aware in myself through empathic understanding and support, not knowledge and process that only I know to be true, my immediate connection would be, I don't know what this person requires. They will show me. I will support them in their need space, if I am truly open to them without my own ideas in needs involved.

I see where you're coming from (or I think I do - I hope I'm not too far wrong) but to me, shedding parental baggage and extricating oneself from social conditioning (including the peddled concept that "religion is good" and the fallout that entails) IS the waking up. Perhaps I'm more of a rebel than I thought but this isn't about fear and guilt, just unchaining oneself from things that constrict one working toward (and claiming a right to) selfhood, spiritual evolution.

In this transmogrification, one will no doubt uncover peccadilloes of their past - sometimes big ones! - that, in the new light, should prompt a feeling of guilt, shame etc., but the simple fact is that nothing can be unwritten and one has to hope for redemption rather than trying to forgive oneself. It seems fulfilling to make amends which lean toward the victim of one's "sins". If karma is to be believed that would seem a worthier restoration of balance.

Likewise fear of unknowns is natural, afflicting people in different ways. I suppose some people can just throw it off watching it vanish into the sunset but others have to work toward a sense of adventure. All exploration is about venturing into the unknown and uncomfortable territory will need to be navigated. You often see on this forum people talking about "letting go of ego". They really don't know what that means in terms of truly letting go of one's earthly identity as one glimpses what lies beyond self. Indeed this would be feared by most, I'd guess - hardly different from dying - but people have two choices.It's up to them to assess their mental stability. Death and rebirth in a different mould.

I still believe that "forgiving oneself" is vacuous verbiage. Either one can dismiss the issue at hand or has to show repentance and perhaps rebalance karma by putting things right, directly or indirectly (by promises it won't happen again - and if you make those to the god within you don't renege, obviously or you become just a mendacious ------ (unpublishable) - and by doing what the victim in their milieu would consider "good deeds").

And...thank you for your thought-provoking response. :smile:

Wishing you a pleasant day.

:smile:

...

[Tanemon]

In this transmogrification, one will no doubt uncover peccadilloes of their past - sometimes big ones! - that, in the new light, should prompt a feeling of guilt, shame etc., but the simple fact is that nothing can be unwritten and one has to hope for redemption rather than trying to forgive oneself. It seems fulfilling to make amends which lean toward the victim of one's "sins". If karma is to be believed that would seem a worthier restoration of balance.

Likewise fear of unknowns is natural, afflicting people in different ways. I suppose some people can just throw it off watching it vanish into the sunset but others have to work toward a sense of adventure. All exploration is about venturing into the unknown and uncomfortable territory will need to be navigated. You often see on this forum people talking about "letting go of ego". They really don't know what that means in terms of truly letting go of one's earthly identity as one glimpses what lies beyond self. Indeed this would be feared by most, I'd guess - hardly different from dying - but people have two choices.It's up to them to assess their mental stability. Death and rebirth in a different mould.
All of the above, very well said.

I still believe that "forgiving oneself" is vacuous verbiage.
I believe what people generally mean by 'forgiving themselves' is to acknowledge that whatever botch they feel they made of a situation was bound up with their stage of development at the time of the action. Perhaps other language might be used by you or by me, but I believe when people use the phrase it very often does refer to something significant for them. They're sure they've evolved past their former misunderstanding or immaturity. As a consequence, they're reporting: "I finally was able to stop kicking myself".

This doesn't preclude rebalancing "karma by putting things right, directly or indirectly". Speaking personally, forgiving myself is usually the door opener for me to put things right, directly or indirectly.

[Tanemon]

(I wanted to replace that last sentence, but ran into technical difficulties when trying to edit. Scratch that sentence, here's what I want to say...)

Speaking personally, forgiving myself (in the above sense) is usually the door opener for me to put things right, directly or indirectly with someone against whom I may have held some resentment.

For me, forgiving another person is a process inside myself - a letting go of (or untangling from) resentment. They may never approach me with an apology.

This doesn't preclude that the person being forgiven may choose to "rebalance karma by putting things right, directly or indirectly". But for me, it's a matter of no longer being concerned with whether they will or won't do so.