Saami People of Norway, Finland and Sweden and Joiking

[shoresh]

Hello, I am starting this topic as I have felt really drawn to the Saami Culture. I recently viewed a youtube video from Graham Nicholls (an OOB instructor from the UK) and he mentioned during the course of one of his OOBs the appearance of a Saami man.

For some reason, this very small remark on his part of this presentation prompted me to do some research on the Saami people. I was amazed at their rich history and culture. I found that they are shamanistic, and much to my surprise, seemed very aware of soul travel from this world and to other realms. I have been attempting Astral Projecting for awhile and Lucid Dreaming so their information was intriguing.

It amazed me that this very ancient culture had some of the same exact truths I have heard from NDErs, End of life encounters, after death communications and other OOB literature. Which made me realize in a sense, we (in this current awakening) appear to be going back to some very ancient spiritual teachings rather than finding new teachings... that they were somehow lost to most of us in the Western hemisphere. Perhaps I am drawn to them, because my grandfather's family is from Norway. I remember seeing some of the crafts and knitted wear the relatives from Norway sent over which had some of the same symbols / artwork on them. My great grandmother was also to said to be able to see spirits of people gone over, along with some of my other family members which have certain abilities as well. I understand, from that cultural viewpoint, it would not have been unusual to have those gifts.

One of the most beautiful things I found was the Saami's use of a Joik, which is their traditional music, which is to be sung not with words, but rather, "A Joik is not merely a description; it attempts to capture its subject in its entirety: it's like a holographic, multi-dimensional living image, not just a flat photograph or simple visual memory. It is not about something, it is that something. It does not begin and it does not end. A Joik does not need to have words — its narrative is in its power, it can tell a life story in song."

I have found a Joik that really spoke to my heart, at first I only heard the singer. Afterwards I found out it was dedicated to his young friend who had passed. here it is by Jon Henrik (hope it is okay to post this video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCL9FiAuezk

[Native spirit]

I have seen the programme you speak of before ,as for the link it is music without words, but listen to the music words arent needed in it,you can tell it comes from the heart

Namaste

[sentient]

End of life encounters, after death communications and other OOB literature. Which made me realize in a sense, we (in this current awakening) appear to be going back to some very ancient spiritual teachings rather than finding new teachings... that they were somehow lost to most of us in the Western hemisphere. Perhaps I am drawn to them, because my grandfather's family is from Norway. I remember seeing some of the crafts and knitted wear the relatives from Norway sent over which had some of the same symbols / artwork on them. My great grandmother was also to said to be able to see spirits of people gone over, along with some of my other family members which have certain abilities as well. I understand, from that cultural viewpoint, it would not have been unusual to have those gifts.
You are quite right there shoresh ........
One of the most beautiful things I found was the Saami's use of a Joik
I have found a Joik that really spoke to my heart, at first I only heard the singer. Afterwards I found out it was dedicated to his young friend who had passed. here it is by Jon Henrik.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCL9FiAuezk

..... except - Jon Henrik is Native Colombian by birth, adopted by a Saami family from Sweden and was thus brought up as Saami & going strong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VLFog6mbY

*

[sentient]

One of the most beautiful things I found was the Saami's use of a Joik, which is their traditional music, which is to be sung not with words, but rather, "A Joik is not merely a description; it attempts to capture its subject in its entirety: it's like a holographic, multi-dimensional living image, not just a flat photograph or simple visual memory. It is not about something, it is that something. It does not begin and it does not end. A Joik does not need to have words — its narrative is in its power, it can tell a life story in song."
I think the same is found in all (?) shamanic cultures throughout Siberia as well.
It is not about concepts or mimicry, but rather embodiment of the elemental and animal spirit helpers in Shamanic séances.

[Realm Ki]

Thanks for sharing Daniel's Song, I hadn't heard it got a long time. It is all love...

[WhiteWarrior]

I am Norwegian. I won't say I know the lapp culture well but I know some of it. I consider it a wonder that they weren't stamped out in the 19th and 20th century when the Scandinavian governments put the crowbar into them. Much has survived and the joik is still sung, as it should. There are still drummers and shamans too.

A memory from the 1970s we are sharing if you are Norwegian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lnFp6_zQsQ

[AnotherBob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPqKAuzo0tk

__/\__

[sentient]

Did not know who Graham Nicholls is, so looking into it brought me to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bxCnLY9sy8&ab_channel=GrahamNicholls

Looks like what he calls as OBE, I’d call falling into a trance or entering “shamanic Journeying”.
His experience in the video sounded similar to the one I had - years ago, when in a meditative state I suddenly fell into a spontaneous trance in which I was swallowed by a giant wave.
That was the eve of the 2004 tsunami which hit Thailand.
After that, for a few days staying in a light trance - in which you are partly here, partly there (in another dimension) painting ‘spirit canoes’ to guide the souls “home” as they seemed totally confused and disoriented about what had happened.
Only later did I learn that my cousin’s husband and their son had died in that event.

So yes, his experience does sound genuine and those are the kind of stories the old folk used to tell each other all-the-time.

*
But why would he see a Saami man in his ‘OBE visions’, if he is not related?
Perhaps it was a prompting from his own guidance to look further into experiences relating to the shamanic multidimensional reality.

[sentient]

Oh. I see …
shoresh, was this the ‘OBE’ of Graham Nicholls where the Saami man appeared?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZNlzPu8_Yg&ab_channel=ShadowCamera

From 44:55 to 46:02

Right, yes, well … You do become aware of an energy-field of a person who comes into your (auric) presence. If it comes out-of-the-blue, you just sense it for a while to get the “energy-signature” - in order to determine who it is and its intent towards you and this is what I assume the Saami man did.
And Graham was probably subconsciously ‘magnetized’ to his presence, since the Saami bloke could consciously be aware of his ‘OOB’ i.e. energy-field presence.

That’s my take on it anyways, from my own experience in this …

These are all valid experiences ….

The pyramid-type of structure behind the Saami would have been "Kota" or "Lavvu" in Saami, meaning a tipi-like-tent.

[Altair]

It would help their reputation if they weren’t so anti-wolf. (I will always speak out for wolves!). Learn to protect your herd without shooting carnivores dead. Otherwise, fine.

[sentient]

It would help their reputation if they weren’t so anti-wolf. (I will always speak out for wolves!). Learn to protect your herd without shooting carnivores dead. Otherwise, fine.

There are 2 Saami groups, the Forest Saami and the Reindeer-herding Saami (the "Fell Sami") and I do not know if their attitudes towards the wolves were/are different (?)

Practically speaking, perhaps it is best to concentrate the wolf conservation efforts on the forested areas though - where their numbers have been increasing:
https://www.tunturisusi.com/euroopansudet2.png

I grew up in an area, where there were wolves, but unfortunately never irl. had the opportunity to personally connect/interact face to face with a wild wolf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbbymDbm0lQ&ab_channel=JukkaL%C3%A4ms%C3%A4

[sentient]

I grew up in an area, where there were wolves, but unfortunately never irl. had the opportunity to personally connect/interact face to face with a wild wolf.

I did get that opportunity though with a wild dingo (pack) when camping in the Central Australian desert country, where I saw some absolutely spectacular places, but my favorite place was this one (dry river bed) gorge, where we also camped the night. (Have I told this story here before?)


Between dream and reality

Early in the night heard some howling in the distance for quite a long time … but since that National Park had two camping sites, I thought that perhaps it was some idiot in that other distant camping spot pretending to be a dingo.
Or maybe it was a real dingo?

Then must have fallen asleep, when this eye, that looked like an Egyptian eye (the Eye of Horus) appeared in my dream. At a closer look, zooming into the eye, I saw that it was an eye of a dingo eyeballing me, and the eye was like wanting to say: “I have seen you!”
Just then heard a soft short howl near my tent (beside my head, where the netted window flap was) …. after which – all around us, quite near and further away … all the dingoes started to howl in chorus – howls that the rocky canyon walls echoed … and echoed … and echoed ….

What an absolutely magnificent moment!!!
I was in total rapture!

Needless to say, couldn’t sleep after that nor could I help but start longing after these dingoes, desiring to travel with them into the night.
Silently in my mind – I howled them back. This special call. Did I make it up or did I just repeat the howl of the dingo near my tent … (?)
And just then - one lone dingo howled back that call – twice!!!
A moment of total magic, when I could not tell whether reality had just become a dream or dream a reality.

In the morning when we left the camp, “saw” a dingo in my mind’s eye standing in the middle of the road – round the bend towards which we were driving … and when we did go round that bend … of course – there she was!

[Altair]

There are 2 Saami groups, the Forest Saami and the Reindeer-herding Saami (the "Fell Sami") and I do not know if their attitudes towards the wolves were/are different (?)

Wolf genetic variation in Scandinavia isn't too great, Northern Sweden/Finland functions as a corridor for wolves to get into the western part of Scandinavia, the area where the Saami also live, AND their tame reindeer population. Swedish government ought to fix this situation. There are many brown bears in western Scandinavia but when it comes to wolves there seems to be an anti-wolf sentiment, with cheering going on for wolf hunting. They don't even have many wolves at all.

[WhiteWarrior]

Wolf genetic variation in Scandinavia isn't too great, Northern Sweden/Finland functions as a corridor for wolves to get into the western part of Scandinavia, the area where the Saami also live, AND their tame reindeer population. Swedish government ought to fix this situation. There are many brown bears in western Scandinavia but when it comes to wolves there seems to be an anti-wolf sentiment, with cheering going on for wolf hunting. They don't even have many wolves at all.

Speaking as a Norwegian I hear a lot about the wolf issue frequently, it is one of those piping hot political potatoes. The Lapps here don't speak much on that but they have always been hunting them. The most fervent anti-wolf groups are elsewhere. Ask a sheep farmer about wolves... or probably for the best, don't. We have one million sheep going loose and unherded in nature, about 40 wolves in total, and those 40 wolves have a "Wanted: Dead" poster circulating. The other side are small environmental groups. But both sides have wide support in the farmer's party (now in the government faction) and in the leftist socialist parties. I have a lot to say about it but there is no point, the sides are more entrenched than Somme 1915 and it isn't really a big Saami issue.

[Altair]

Yes, it is very similar here. Maybe 40/50 wolves but people are all over the place preaching anti-wolf propaganda and of course the sheep farmers are at it as well. They think they can have their sheep outside and not give protection (fences, guard dogs).

I think the whole sheep business is a joke!! Most people don't eat mutton nor have clothes made of wool. It's just a cultural thing, the ''landscape with the sheep''. Dogs kill more sheep and bite hundreds of people every year here, wolves don't. But the wolf is the bad guy in the cultural stories.

[sentient]

There are many brown bears in western Scandinavia but when it comes to wolves there seems to be an anti-wolf sentiment, with cheering going on for wolf hunting.

Besides environmental altruism, if we go back and back in time, bears have been revered totem animals, hence protected. In the eastern side of Fennoscandia, among Skolt Saami and Karelians at least, bears were considered as totemic ancestors.

Even though old stories about shapeshifting into bears or wolves abound, wolf shapeshifters were feared more than death itself.
Amerind ‘Skinwalkers’ come to mind. Is it similar – I don’t know, it just sounds similar.

Don’t know what this Somby guy is doing – is he raising awareness about the taboo subject?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkOWK1EuQtc&ab_channel=%C3%81ndeSomby-Topic

Does he know what he is doing, know the pitfalls of it, or is it all just about being a vocal artist playing with 'concepts'?
https://www.cafeoto.co.uk/events/tigmus-presents-ande-somby/

[WhiteWarrior]

Interesting case. Ande Somby, which I have not heard of before now, is a Lapp and a musician and a professor in Law - a rare combination. Best as I can see he is trying to interpret the nature of various animals through the joik. I don't think there is a further message in it.

[sentient]

Hi WhiteWarrior,
Nice to see Norwegian presence here.
Best as I can see he is trying to interpret the nature of various animals through the joik. I don't think there is a further message in it.

Could be, could be, he might just be an environmentally conscious Saami artiste …
Then again, it is a bit like those inkblots and word associations, mention wolf and all the shapeshifting stories from collective subconscious and the ones one has heard come to mind - I guess - if you are a Saami lol.

Years ago, purchased the dvd: “Kautokeino Rebellion”, a film which left me so very depressed I had to watch the movie “Mongol” afterwards. Those wolf totemic Mongols and Asian Turks knew how to kick a**!
Still, we do need that balance, not wanting to become a pathetic shrivelling, whining wimp nor a rabid hound from hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3Pye2VqSg&ab_channel=UfukCanAtik

[sentient]

Ah, best let the man speak for himself:
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/musicshow/ande-somby-the-yoiker/9269088

Apparently when he was 17, a wolf entered into his tent asking for his help & that situation must have affected him deeply leaving him feel that the wolf is his “kaima”, - name brother - (he says it “kaimi" or “gaimi”).

Very good – so there was a real personal story behind his wolf joik one can relate to.

[Altair]

Still, we do need that balance, not wanting to become a pathetic shrivelling, whining wimp nor a rabid hound from hell.

I don't know if you meant that literally, but canines have been carriers of rabies throughout history, as are bats. It's where we got the werewolf and vampire stories from. An infected canine is indeed a 'rabid hound from hell'..

[sentient]

I don't know if you meant that literally, but canines have been carriers of rabies throughout history, as are bats. It's where we got the werewolf and vampire stories from. An infected canine is indeed a 'rabid hound from hell'..
Well, back in my mind I was kind of thinking about the old (yin & yang like) totemic moiety balance system, where for example in Mongolia, the wolf marries the deer.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-mongolians-love-wolves

This is the old Khanty/Mansi image which I had posted before:
https://i.ibb.co/4WLvSwb/Fomin-Nikolai-Sacred-organisms.jpg

How at times you can “see” the person’s totem animal superimposed on them (their etheric double, I suppose) or sense how their ‘energy-fields vibrate’ with a special kind of detectable totemic ‘key’.

But what happens when that moiety balance gets lost …

To actually shapeshift into a bear or a wolf, folklore tells how you need to go to the forest, find a special kind of tree with a specific kind of root to crawl under – whatnot ….

*

I am somewhat aware of the Eastern – Viena Karelian and Saami mixed heritage, familiar with that cultural blur, but finding that many of the Norwegian Kautokeino Saami families are distant relatives also is a new discovery and I am somewhat amazed.

Where “our” researches went to the East, to Siberia, to seek old deep ancestry connections to the old ways, looks like the Norwegian cousins went to the West.

Michael Harner – Oh my …

And this inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJBAdH6r2iI&ab_channel=hape3

I am stunned. Stunned and amazed.

[sentient]

Sami Neo-Shamanism in Norway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPBFXAvn5Lo&ab_channel=ArithH%C3%A4rger

Had to watch that video twice, since at first it sounded like gobbledygook.
What New Age?!
What Neo?!
What reconstruction?!
Blimey! Didn’t know or realize or appreciate just how much had been lost culturally.

Did come across the book “The Way of the Shaman” by Harner. Bought the book, read it and then did something I have never done before nor since – burned it!

Radien - from the website:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radien-attje

The superior deity is the ruler of the Cosmos. In his honour, the Sami erect a sacrificial pole every autumn, symbolizing the world-pillar, which is considered as a connection the World to the firmament. The pillar reached from the centre of the Earth to the fix point on the firmament - the Pole star. The superior deity is also the “giver of life” and is considered the god of fertility.

This, I dare say is “Core Shamanism”.
We have always had it, so no need to reconstruct it, but perhaps it takes an Elder to properly help one understand the meaning and show how to reconnect to it.

Which brings me to these old rock paintings from Finland ….
Noaidi drums from Sápmi, rock paintings in Finland and Sámi cultural heritage – an investigation
A new, extensive examination of figures with horns and triangular shaped heads in prehistoric rock paintings in Finland reveals remarkable parallels with similar attributes on the Radien and Akka groups of spirits, pictured as male and female powers of the sky, earth and underworld, painted on the heads of indigenous Sámi noaidi drums from Swedish and Norwegian Sápmi during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.


The example:
http://www.ismoluukkonen.net/kalliotaide/suomi/sn/sn.html

Why the triangular shaped heads? Does anybody know?
Are those 2 lavvus (or kotas) underneath the figure?
I think I have read a few references about Saami having lived there prior to moving up North.

[sentient]

Ailo Gaup, Michael Harner and Neoshamanism
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137461407_1

Harner: “The Way of the Shaman”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N2z3-6vE0I&list=PLRr-PXWsYvFsI065T59A0zbJz0LyMJkqY&index=1&ab_channel=ThinkingAllowedTV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGbp-QEjCk&list=PLRr-PXWsYvFsI065T59A0zbJz0LyMJkqY&index=2&ab_channel=shamanicstudies

I can fully relate to Gaup’s (then) need to revive the old ways and had I also at that time come across those speeches of Harner’s – I too would perhaps have been sold to his idea.

And sure, many people can learn “shamanic journeying” if one can relax enough, enter into a theta-brainwave state (perhaps through drumming) & get over the CCF barrier (Conscious Critical Faculty). But learning to journey or even learning to facilitate such events during a weekend workshops, does not make one a “Shaman”.

When the workshop: “Many people, now you too can become a Shaman” (what I now assume were Harner educated facilitators) from FennoScandian/Saami lineage - channelling Siberian “Medicine People Shaman” called the “True Path” came to town - out of curiosity, I did attend:

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1753663&postcount=40

Yeah - no.
That was both good, but not really heh.

[sentient]

P.S.
Even though I am not a fan of Harner’s – that doesn’t mean Gaup’s journeying did not provide valuable and valid information for him.

So now I am really curious and interested in his journeys!
Will try to get the book:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1418980280i/23953829.jpg

[WhiteWarrior]

And sure, many people can learn “shamanic journeying” if one can relax enough, enter into a theta-brainwave state (perhaps through drumming) & get over the CCF barrier (Conscious Critical Faculty). But learning to journey or even learning to facilitate such events during a weekend workshops, does not make one a “Shaman”.



That would be me. However, I do not call myself a shaman, I say I am on a shamanic path, and others I have talked with say the same. I have yet to hear a credible spiritual person actually call himself a shaman.

[sentient]

That would be me. However, I do not call myself a shaman, I say I am on a shamanic path, and others I have talked with say the same. I have yet to hear a credible spiritual person actually call himself a shaman.

Good on you WhiteWarrior.
Care to share a memorable journey or two or three?

[WhiteWarrior]

Good on you WhiteWarrior.
Care to share a memorable journey or two or three?

I mainly attempt to communicate with the spirit world on behalf of others. To do this I use a drum to heighten my mental state at least one notch. It seems to be working, judging by the feedback I get. Journeying to the aether I have done a few times, again to speak with spirit but this time earth bound ones. Also there was the one time I tried mind traveling to the cabin, first saw the building as it was a long time and several rebuildings ago, then saw myself being buried in the fog wearing armor and with a smile on my face. I'm not really much of an experimental journeyer, I'd rather have a purpose to the voyage.

My idea of what a shaman is, really comes from the tribal nomadic cultures. Where the shaman was the local doctor, apothecarist, dream interpreter, story teller, priest, dentist, burial agent, general wise man and just about anything except chieftain. His main function being to offer a service to his community. I cannot be most of those things but I recognize his craft as a honorable one and will take what inspiration I can from what I know of them.

[sentient]

Oh, did find the Gaup website sjamansonen story: “Om å finne veien”:
https://sjamansonen.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17&Itemid=51

That I understood with my little Dansk og Svensk, but to get it all, I did need Google English translation.
So, it was Harner who had approached him …

If I remember correctly, Harner had also approached Anna-Leena Siikala, who wrote “The Rite technique of the Siberian Shaman”, but she was more into travelling around Russia doing academic research, than into “journeying”.

[sentient]

WhiteWarrior

May I ask – where did you first learn about this? What prompted you?

[WhiteWarrior]

WhiteWarrior

May I ask – where did you first learn about this? What prompted you?

Hm. Good question. I have been on a conscious spiritual path for a little more than a decade. During that time I have met several spiritual people of various branches of faith, including on this forum, who kindly let me ask very many questions and helped me understand concepts and try things. I consider them my teachers. Before that there were little moments and experiences that I didn't see as significant at the time. I recall some time when I was a child, maybe 6 or 7, when I would lie awake in my bed in the darkness constructing houses and ships piece by piece from energy and turning them around to study them. A decade later I could lie in bed and travel in my mind along well known roads stretch by stretch to some destination. I didn't think this was unusual at the time.

I never read much spiritual stuff. Oh, I have a number of books, but back when I read them I didn't think I was ever going to do anything like that myself. There was however one line that has stuck with me. I don't recollect from where. That shamans often found their calling after a drastic, lifechanging event. I certainly had that, just a few years before I started my conscious path, when I lost my health and much else that mattered to me then.

[sentient]

Thank you WhiteWarrior for your replies, always good to know where people are like ‘coming from’.

There certainly are knowledgeable people on this forum one can learn from, but when it comes to actual teachers of the so called “shamanic journeying” on this thread, the original poster’s mentioned Graham Nicholls - to me sounded most straight forward, credible, authentic and honest, plus he doesn’t pretend to be a shaman or any other spiritual teacher.
He seemed to have had a natural talent to start with, which he later honed in on, explored and developed.

But that is not “Core Shamanism” - more like a ‘side door’, which can easily become badly distorted.
The Core to my knowledge is found in the Axis Mundi, … where stillness and movement come together, time and timelessness, oneness and multiplicity etc. etc. etc. which is an awareness shift where real shamanic spiritual visions & awakening experiences into nonduality takes place and also initiation.

https://i.ibb.co/y837FZC/Microcosm-and-Macrocosm.jpg

It has been said, that all the shamans of the old were initiated by the Eagle. I would say Thunderbird/Eagle since ancestors were “Kokko” worshippers.
The Eagle comes with an ‘invitation’:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6b/6c/04/6b6c0446fac5b2202e2860ac8f976d7b.jpg

But it is not an eagle as such, nor a cloud, but like a ‘force-field’.
If one declines ‘Eagle’s invitation’ – that is not too good.
If one accepts – the Thunderbird swallows one up - which is the ‘shamanic-death-experience’ and then spits one back into the body - ‘rearranged’.
One also gets a gift, like a Power Animal, which is like an energetic function between the Source and manifest reality, which also acts like an ‘extra soul’ component for the shaman.
Since the shaman had already ‘died’ to the local “I am” and awakened to the Source “I AM” – so to speak, there is trust and protection to go into trances.

That is what I’ve learned anyways …

[sentient]

The mythical giant Eagle/Thunderbird is Kokko (but the link doesn't work):

There are Saami birds called “vaaka, vuokko or vuohko and vuoyu”, but I do not know if they mean the same thing or mean something else; - point to some other function (?)

*

Edited to add this bit I found:
From
https://www.isars.org/shaman_pdf/ShamanVol02_1994_Retro.pdf

The shaman himself is often conceived as taking on the forms of beasts. Olsen (1910: 32) records that the noaidi gadze teach the shaman to take on the shape of wolves and bears, as well as casting the form on others.
15 Itkonen (1946: 120) records the tale of Päiviö from Peltovuoma, who is supposed to have swum as a pike to heal the king of Sweden, and returned as a whale, narrowly avoiding being caught in a net on his return.
Hultkrantz notes that the entire set of actions necessary to retrieve a soul from the underworld seems to have been carried out by the shaman’s assistant spirits, rather than by him. One source says that the 15 In later folk beliefs, the most able shamans were held to be those that could fly as a bird; the next most able could take on the forms of beasts whilst in trance; the least able could use only the power of words, or objects, in their sorcery (Itkonen 1946: 113–120).

The bird form that the shaman took on was called kuoddâlv (from kŭĕd’ded, ‘carry’), ‘griffon’. The vaakalintu, ‘griffon bird’, that the Mistress of Pohjola turns herself into in Finnish myth (Kuusi et al. 1977: no. 12) is clearly of the same sort; notice that the word vaaka is cognate with Lappish vuokko (Toivonen 1931: 432), indicating that the kuoddâlv, into which the Lapp shaman turns himself, is probably to be regarded as identical with vuokko, again reaffirming the close connexion between the shaman and his helping spirits.


So no, the meaning is not the same. And this is more like occult 'sorcery', not shamanic spirituality.

[WhiteWarrior]

Intriguing. The eagle is my totem animal and has been for a long time. I had a vision once where I was one, also a long time ago now. Flying, hunting. The view from above was amazing, as was the feeling of the wind under my wings and the exhaliriating feeling of hurling downward to catch a prey, and the pride of bringing home fresh meat to my mate. I can still see the barren stony landscape and the ruins on which we had our nest.

[sentient]

Intriguing. The eagle is my totem animal and has been for a long time.

That was a lovely vision WhiteWarrior.

But even if you did find the eagle story I narrated intriguing, please don’t take it as a gospel, as ‘invitations from Spirit’ can and do take many forms.

If the eagle is a prominent feature or symbol ‘living’ in your subconscious, the question for you is – how come? Where did it or that connection come from, originate? What do you understand/see a totem animal to be and/or to mean?

Eagle is and has been a sacred animal symbol for a lot of people and in general, I guess, eagles have been many shamans’ animal-spirit-helpers.

*

For example ...
If I asked (in general) anybody from my ethnic group (& group thinking) to tell the creation story of the Cosmic/World Egg, they would probably tell “the myth of the world being created from the fragments of an egg laid by a goldeneye (duck) on the knee of Ilmatar, goddess of the air”.

I could never relate to that story, but when relatives gifted me a piece of jewellery:
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0114/22/vintage-wild-duck-uhtua-necklace_1_390d7daf4d3241ccb698761cdb57fa28.jpg

The large bird is occasionally referred to as 'The Eagle', but the official name is 'The wild duck of Uhtua'. The inspiration for the pendant comes from archaeological findings in the region of Uhtua in Karelia in modern day Russia, dating back to the era of the Crusades.

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/1/0114/22/vintage-wild-duck-uhtua-necklace_1_390d7daf4d3241ccb698761cdb57fa28.jpg

So, when I then learned that our specific creation story is that of the “Kokko/Eagle/Thunderbird” & not a duck, only then did the creation story make sense bringing those jigsaw puzzle pieces of meanings and associations together for me.

[WhiteWarrior]

Eagles live in my country, I see them at times at the family's cabin and they are majestic. So does many other birds. Totems and other Native American words and concepts came into my life with 'Silver Arrow', a comic book featuring the wild west as seen from the NA side, and other wild west books like Tex Willer. Hey, I was six, I read what was bought for me and this was many decades before anime, DC and Marvel overflowed the shelves.

Comics aside, my country has had a number of very good wilderness writers that told stories as the animals experienced them. Those were the first books available to me after comic books. And I was an avid reader of Jack London too.

Incidentally, and probably as a result of this thread, I dreamed of an eagle last night. I was walking through a forested area, passed by a derelict hut and heard an unexpected sound from the second floor. There I found an eagle, it was tangled into a discarded net. I freed it but it didn't fly away.

By the way, your links dont work. "Direct image access denied, please go to worthpoint.com to view images."

[sentient]

When it comes to the word “totem” – it is just that our rather loose and broad Western use of the term leaves me wondering what it is we are actually talking about.
Do we really think we are speaking Amerind lingo there and seeing reality from their perspective?

Realistically and in a narrow sense of the word – where in the world are traditional totemic kinship systems still practiced? Australia yes, in the remote communities, where it still is a crime to marry into the wrong skin-group (totem), where custodians still perform rites and rituals to ensure the survival of their totemic kin (animals). And if ‘you’ are an outsider coming in, a skin-group totem will be assigned to you so that you can become a functioning part of that kinship system/community.

But for the rest of us and now talking about Fennoscandia here and the Saami, we need to go back and back and back to the old hunting culture – its worldview, its myths, its rituals and associations, as not to appropriate another culture or reconstruct in a new age way, but rather remember it.

In Finland we are said to have had 2 major hunting clans, the bear and the moose with totemic associations, plus smaller; - other animal clans. It was the hunter’s responsibility to do the proper rites and rituals sending their souls back up to the heavens to ensure their consequent return.
(The Ob-Ugrian picture I posted earlier has the bear-skull-tree in it, used for this purpose).

Among the Skolt Saami, we also have the descendants of the bear. Were/are they also descendants of the swan, not sure.
The rest of the Saami ….?

Now this ‘OBE shamanic journeying’ does provide an avenue to explore what is still there of the old – left in the collective subconscious about it. But with these OBE-journeys, one always needs to check if there is an answering image in real reality matching that which one had witnessed, otherwise the whole thing just turns into some weird new age fantasy.

But WhiteWarrior, I do not want to discourage you here. Your dream was really interesting and your eagle-connection worth for you to explore further what it is by asking the Universe or Spirit to show you: What is it?

P.S. And the link to the piece of jewelry, which was just relatives way of saying: “Out in the world, remember where you came from, who you are”.
https://www.rubylane.com/item/1913705-F4109/Kalevala-Koru-Large-Uhtua-Bronze-Bird

[sentient]

Good info about the Saami @ the Saami blog:
https://saamiblog.blogspot.com/2007/

Something that caught my eye:
“Prehistoric Genetic Link of the Amazigh and Saami”
Well, that was the old mitochondrial DNA, Euro hunter-gatherer connection U5 b1 b1 - whatnot …
Been there - done that, and as much I seriously do love Tinariwen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vACZA9dGvV4&ab_channel=Tinariwen

… the reality is. Compared to Amazigh vs. Tlingit, Skolt Saami comes as 86% Tlingit & 14% Amazigh (I got 6% less Tlingit.)

[sentient]

I do enjoy these interviews with “Jungle Svonni”.

Spending 6 years in the Amazon:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Zv6Gk774rTM

Jungle Svonni (Sami Shaman) Full Interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soOhnG8DQ60&ab_channel=SunnysideExpeditions

Cannot blame him for moving to Peru to learn from the shamans there, but I am still surprised at the loss of the culture in Sweden and Norway.

I never looked for any Shamans nor spiritual teachers abroad, but due to circumstances, it just so happened that when I met the first Aboriginal Elder – within the first minutes – we *shifted* into “One Spirit” (as they described it) – “a silent oneness” (nondual) communication, something which I had learned from gran since early childhood, so I felt as if we had known each other ‘since eternity’ & that got me hooked to become involved for over 20 years.

“Looking for Elders” and expecting or feeling entitled to receive teachings can actually end up the (new age) seeker becoming the butt of a practical joke or much worse.

[eezi-ulgen]

There are Saami birds called “vaaka, vuokko or vuohko and vuoyu”, but I do not know if they mean the same thing or mean something else; - point to some other function (?)

Here is a section from your pdf link from post #32...Copied from page 125 of your pdf under the chapter title of "The Shamanic Séance in the Historia Norwegiae"...
You probably already seen it but I figured it won't hurt to bring it to your attention if it can help in your investigation...

(a) Saiva leddie, ‘supernatural bird’, apart from being sent to the saiva
olmai, also showed the shaman his way during the trance journey; the
shaman also had a hideous bird called vurnes lodde or vuokko which
would be sent against rival shamans: it is probably identical with the
saiva leddie;

...Peace...

[sentient]

Here is a section from your pdf link from post #32...Copied from page 125 of your pdf under the chapter title of "The Shamanic Séance in the Historia Norwegiae"...
You probably already seen it but I figured it won't hurt to bring it to your attention if it can help in your investigation...

With a one-track mind, getting so caught up in about the question how the Western Saami are doing, I am afraid I’m missing noticing stuff.
You are always so damn good and wise at spotting and pointing things out!
:hug3:

No two shamans were/are alike, let alone counting regional differences of beliefs and practices.

“a hideous bird called vurnes lodde or vuokko which would be sent against rival shamans”.
From Kalevala, here I guess, we have got vurnes lodde or vuokko in action (?)
"The Defense of the Sampo" painting:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/5/51/Louhi.png/revision/latest?cb=20170620191350

The sender of that bird was a sorcerer but. There is a difference. And in stories about it, that bird can come in many forms.
I would differentiate between shaman’s “Saiva leddie” and sorcerer’s “vurnes lodde” though ….

And talking about the different kind of people and their abilities, which were detected within the “shamanic world”:
Sami Kvad (Runic) Chanting
As told in Kalevala, the accomplishments of the “Noitat or Tietajat”, i.e. shaman or famous sorceress frequently were achieved with their wisdom, songs and runic spells and not with the sword (Friis, 1871). The following 12th song from Kalevala V, 395 – 402 supports that the Sami earlier used ”Kvad” singing:
”Then he looked into the house,
Peered in from his hidden corner:
Saw the house was full of adepts,
Benches crowded with enchanters,
Side walls lined with Hiisi's harpers,
Doorway jammed with sorcerers;
On the back bench sat the seers,
Wizards in the chimney corner.
They were chanting Lapland runos,
Howling out the hymns of Hiisi.”

Except for a kvad about the bear hunt and a hero-song about "the sons of the sun" called “Bæive Barnek”, these Kvads disappeared with christianisation. Source: ”Lappisk mythologi, eventyr og folkesagn” av Friis, 1871. Another Sami Kvad song that have been preserved is "Guttavuorok" about one that can transform himself into 6 different characters (Source: En sommer i Finnmarken…, Friis, 1871).


Many Viena Karelian ancestors were “back bag traders” to Finland and to Saami-land:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EyO2YpMgkys/VWhVef5VDKI/AAAAAAAADQk/qkaBMjBFrj8/s400/Scannen0004.jpg

… and many of them were also Rune singers. I assume that piece of Rune poem was a description of a Saami-land visit he had done. Had to laugh at the “Doorway jammed with sorcerers” ... yeah, seen one, once, who also stayed by the doorway, eyeballing the situation inside the house, but not coming or joining in … a weird vibe fellow he was. :icon_cyclops_ani:

[sentient]

eezi-ulgen, really – thanks again for your pointing.

Different to mine, but somewhat similar …

“Saiva leddie” …
From Anna-Leena Siikala’s book, a bit loosely translated:
Besides the family line inherited human-form spirit helpers, Saami Shamans also had animal-spirit-helpers “saiva leddie” or “passevare loddi”, a spirit in the form of a bird, “saiva sarva”, a reindeer, “saiva guole“, a fish or “saiva gärmäi”, a snake, but apart from these mentioned, Saami drums also depicted other animal spirits. Uno Harva called these animal-spirit-helpers as “soul-animals”, because the shaman would enter into their form when ‘OBE-journeying’.

From Pentikainen Juha's book:
In a form of a bird, “Saiva leddie” acted as a guide when soul-journeying up to the heavens, or acted as a messenger when asking help from the holy mountain (fjell) spirits “passevare olmah”. These “passevare olmah” spirits not only advised and strengthened the shaman, but also called the shaman to his/her duties. A shaman who passed away joined the “saiva” spirits and perhaps also initiated the next shaman to be.

[sentient]

I really do not know about Saami totems.
The only protective-animal-spirits or guardian-animal-spirits that have been seen in totemic context are those which Skolt Saami inherits from their father or mother, whose animal kin they are not allowed to kill nor eat.
This might be an older version of Saami beliefs, which may have existed among Scandinavian Saami also (?)

Edited adding a Skolt Saami video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI2J-qQRUrs&ab_channel=SAKKMedialinja

[sentient]

Looks like there are many “shamans” teaching drum journeys to meet your “Power Animals” in Norway.
New age Neo-shamanism really seems to be a phenomenon there.
Wonder if they have all been educated by Harner, starting new “shaman schools”?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Y_8lqb5fc&ab_channel=NatureExplorationsWith%C3%98yvindMartin sen

Some even with a little bit of something ‘ceremonial’ borrowed from Amerinds?

As I was watching these YouTubes, I thought that somebody is going to do belly-dancing to a joik next & I wasn’t disappointed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUJ9a-hEv6k&ab_channel=ElinKaaven

Just wow!

[eezi-ulgen]

@sentient Your welcome, I flow with the Spirit of the interwebs..LOL..

Here is my new age answer to "joiking as a Sami shaman" according to AI...
More a new tech answer not really new age answer, though I liked it's response..LOL..

Joiking, a form of singing in the Sami culture, held special significance for shamans, acting as a powerful tool for:

Connecting with the spirit world: Shamans used joiks to establish communication with spirits, seeking guidance, healing, or influencing events.

Entering altered states of consciousness: The rhythmic and repetitive nature of joiks, along with specific melodies and lyrics,
could facilitate the shaman entering a trance-like state, allowing them to access the spirit realm.

Healing and restoring balance: Specific joiks were believed to possess healing properties, used to treat illnesses,
restore harmony to individuals or the community, and appease angry spirits.

Therefore, joiking for a Sami shaman was not simply singing, but a sacred practice deeply integrated with their spiritual beliefs and practices.

[eezi-ulgen]

Looks like there are many “shamans” teaching drum journeys to meet your “Power Animals” in Norway.
New age Neo-shamanism really seems to be a phenomenon there.


Not just there...It seems you can get your drum, power animal and a shamans certificate in a 2 weekend course for $1,000
just about anywhere in the world...(made up scenario for demonstration purposes, "AKA fake news")
Price dependent on exchange rates..LOL...
Bing Bang, Now lets set up shop...

I laugh but it is really sad how it seems shamanism has become a worldwide money maker in the name of
saving the planet or just another way of building a better ego in the name of egolessness...

On a serious note I think this commercial shamanism is dangerous...
Plus it is frustrating to try and communicate on the webs when you have to filter out Traditional Shamanism from core shamanism and neo shamanism...

...Peace...

[sentient]

eezi-ulgen,
Perhaps you didn’t watch Monty Python in Americas (?)
("The Spanish Inquisition" is a series of sketches in Monty Python's Flying Circus):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqreRufrkxM&ab_channel=SteveDevine

Nobody expected the Inquisition, but nobody expected a 3-ring circus either.
Parts of truth gathered together, “borrowing” those from different traditions and then creating a fusion of them for a commercial enterprise. A distorted “Frankenstein form of Shamanism” in the name of Shamanic research and revival. Horrified, I burned that book way back then.

And “indigenousness” has also become such a commercial label.
As fantastic as this looks and sounds! … (still love that song, she is an awesome singer), here riding a “Power Animal” I guess:
https://i0.wp.com/www.vrstupart.com/Artalbum/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/MG_34951.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeH_vTqnR1w&ab_channel=rutebeuf

But what an elaborate hoax, a scam and such an insult to traditional people.
‘You’, don’t know whether to laugh or cry or get angry …. But I am glad you are seeing the funny side of it too eezi.
Sheesh!

[sentient]

Don’t know what that wheel in the picture is supposed to represent:
https://i0.wp.com/www.vrstupart.com/Artalbum/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/MG_34951.jpg

It kinda reminds me of the hunting calendar wheel of Zyrian Komi.

Here a shaman journeying in the form of an eagle-owl (I trust) – his/her animal-spirit-helper.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b5/7b/e3/b57be328aec5f3583b5bcfedc615a05b.jpg

From Komi (who came to Saami-lands) we also got some totemic beliefs handed down.

Like here the bird isn’t eating its prey, but it is supposed to depict a totemic marriage:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PrVXvs_fM2Y/maxresdefault.jpg

Whatever the initial quarrels over the reindeer feeding areas were at the time of their arrival, now it is like – who doesn’t also have a Komi among our ancestors from North-East.

And this is the one I love, love, love, like yeah, that’s how it is:
https://rgdn.info/assets/uploads/images/photos/4e29e-1.jpg

The Eagle gives one a gift, a Horse to ride up and down the World Pole (Axis Mundi) to Lower, Middle or Upper Worlds (depending on a situation need presenting itself).

Shamanic journeying does have its usages and animal spirits do show up for ‘you’ to witness old things.
But why would one seek a “Power Animal” from the Lower World?

Well, Totems can show up, (not in a journey, but energetically) ... but that is if one has actually had a totemic animal spirit ancestor or ancestors, I assume. But that is like opening a portal to the “Ghost Realm” – and boy – do they make a racket (in this realm) to let you know they have been ‘awakened’ or ‘contacted’.

That is my understanding of it anyways …

[sentient]

Sakha (Yakutia)
Had posted this before, but it is fantastic! And real!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9NuIQkVc1o&ab_channel=SNOWRAVEN

Kildn Saami from Kola peninsula:
“Самобытная саамская песня” translated as “Original Saami song”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPM8ymvyYak&ab_channel=%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1 %81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%8 1%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%87% D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0 %BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0

I don’t think Kildn Saami here culturally appropriates Sakha, but Kola peninsula was where our first Siberian ancestors, possible the Yukaghir people arrived:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfWpKd3oHXk&ab_channel=AlexanderL.

(Evenki, Tungus, Siberian song)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_0Z7C9xJU0&ab_channel=KeetBuga

Many a Saami proper have twice as much “Siberian” than I do, yet – why isn’t this remembered!?
Maybe the Russian “iron curtain” had something to do with it.
But what use is this “New Age shamanic journeying”, if it doesn’t help one remember our Siberian ancestry.
Bah!

Sorry, getting all wound up here …

[sentient]

Way back when Estonian, Finnish and Hungarian researchers went to visit our Uralic language group nations, the study into ‘shamanism’ also began, and closer to home - Karelian and Saami heritage had become of interest as well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/a07dfn/map_of_uralic_languages/

Among others, Juha Pentikäinen went further into Siberia and the Amur River to meet shamans. Sometimes even under the threat of being captured and imprisoned by the Russians (for what? – in suspicion of being a spy, perhaps?).
He didn’t become a shaman apprentice though, but 6 shamans had sang him into becoming their son (whatever that meant?).

In this light of shared shamanic heritage, Pentikäinen has also written about Karelian Kalevala mythology and Saami mythology.
Was it also later in his life (?), that he learned about his own Saami ancestors ….
However, he has done painstaking and impeccable research work …..
He recons ‘shamanism’ is no ‘ism’, but a worldview and a cultural mother tongue, which was shared with those who could be trusted. And yeah, that is so true.
So – his books on Siberian shamanism, Karelian and Saami mythology I can recommend if anybody is interested.

eezi has progressed to AI already (thanks for the joik AI) & looks like I have to get and learn this ‘Kindle’ thing now …

[eezi-ulgen]

I'm down a rabbit hole with the Perm style artifacts from post #47...
@sentient I remember you posting images of this style before..
I wanted to delve deeper into this style before..
So I'll take some time now to do that, this style of art peeks my interest...

...Peace...


A short video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVXvs_fM2Y

A pfd I plan to read
https://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol18/permian.pdf

A little article:
http://russia-ic.com/culture_art/visual_arts/200/

[sentient]

I'm down a rabbit hole with the Perm style artifacts from post #47...

It is interesting that it caught your interest ...

IF one can speak about a connection between Euros and Amerinds via the “Mal’ta Boy”, then Udmurts, – those Permians would be the closest to that “Malta boy”, if I remember correctly:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25020958

I think it was them, from whom we have also got the Earth Diver creation myth.
And Spider the weaver who at the same time can be or is a trickster and a saviour … depending …
Something, something sort of similarish …

And those, maybe a group of totemic moose clan men in a moose-head-boat?
Don’t or didn’t yous have something similar? Canoe or boat animal figureheads?

& Who are these? The proud ancestral moose-clan men? (Hope these links work):
https://www.dreamstime.com/snow-covered-art-object-perm-krai-russia-form-group-idols-depicting-anthropomorphic-figures-elk-january-image206924822

This totem-polyish “Alley of majestic idols at Sami Village, Murmansk, Russia” looks new agey, and somewhat ‘pretendian’ tourist trap :
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/alley-majestic-idols-sami-village-murmansk-1517998742?utm_campaign=image&utm_medium=googleimages&utm_source=schema

…. but the roots of those go way back:
https://t1.thpservices.com/previewimage/gallil/70341149baacc5d34b42f1ad945ebfe4/mev-10419179.jpg

… to the:
https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/the-shigir-idol-the-worlds-oldest-wooden-sculpture

[sentient]

eezi-ulgen,
Those Permian animal style objects would look fantastic if they were made into large carved wooden reliefs, like the ones Salish Coast relief panel carvers for example do:
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52e953e8e4b04e8cd686746b/66a6666f-5c1e-43aa-ab2a-5ded01ce0eed/7eRt9Sh4qQsPannnbZAh9pWLXA4fnBdwAFMPOFMncD3cRfz7Pp QjmNWBwhjLxGWe3.jpg

If I was looking at that image from a potential Permian point of view, the 4 segments underneath the face might suggest a female face. Males would have 5 segments.
But that would just be imagining this, because of the ‘scent’ of similarity.

And looking at the “Alley of majestic idols at Sami Village, Murmansk, Russia”, which really are kitsch idols for the tourists, still, one can see they had been made by Komi-Saami mixed people.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e01b2354ecf2c9e9bf3b00ae8cd5cab9-pjlq

Because many of those Permian ‘idols’ were made for ceremonial purposes, one has to be careful when copying them.
I made a large painting of one once, (not one of those, but an image a bit closer to home) – hanged it on the wall, when a freak wind behind my unit arose & it went straight to the painting in the living room, ripped it off the wall and onto the floor with a loud bang.
Freaked out at that point, I quickly painted over it with a sealer/primer.

Not evil, not sorcery, but paranormal nevertheless - something totemic & shamanic anyways, which reminds me of the Amerind “shaking tent” ceremonies.
We also had something similar to that.

I found this touching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M-tio1l2Hc&ab_channel=jasonyup

Perhaps this is why the Somby Saami guy keeps on singing his “name-sake” wolf songs …. If the wolf is alright, he is alright ……

[sentient]

Just how much had Kola Saami potentially integrated Komi beliefs into their world view or ‘repertoire’ - don’t know. But this made me wonder how much had Old Norse beliefs influenced the Norwegian Saami.

Even though I find this bloke a bit difficult to follow, he comes up with some pretty amazing stuff:

The parts that make the self:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP8MSLQjRc&ab_channel=ArithH%C3%A4rger

The Animal Fylgja – a Nordic concept closest to the animal totem ….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Xbh6iOgAA&ab_channel=ArithH%C3%A4rger

Here the out-of-the-body journeys might be of use. Even though it is possible to tap into the collective subconscious of another people’s culture, (like ‘channelling’), generally the things that show up shows us who we are and the culture we find our belonging in. And if some different, out of the norm visions repeatedly pop up, check out that mystery ancestor in your family line ….

[eezi-ulgen]

It is interesting that it caught your interest ...


Everything in post #51 has had my interest for some time...
The perm style spider and how the perm style art reminded me of the flowing and connecting style of the NW coastal style art carvings that capture the interconnection of Spirit and form....

My wife's culture has the deer heads on their canoe...

NW coastal native canoe with deer head...
https://clivedevenishantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IMG_9407.jpg

Also your last image on post 351 was where my thinking went because I was intrigued by that carving last year I believe,
so it was funny that you linked to it because I was going to link you to it...
Another link to the 12,000+ year old Spirit pole "the Shigir Idol"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=T0fVzBGYUoY

I'll leave off with the worlds oldest musical instrument found (60,000 yrs. old)...
It was made by our oldest known ancestral scientists the Neanderthal who made the first scientific produced glue(You can look the glue up on your own)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHXV07YCGKY

P.S. to me all these interests even though they stray from the Sami joik. in my mind they are connected in
the many ways man connects and passes down the various forms of Sacred connection...

[sentient]

I'll leave off with the worlds oldest musical instrument found (60,000 yrs. old)...
It was made by our oldest known ancestral scientists the Neanderthal who made the first scientific produced glue...


As long as people hunted and gathered these bear rituals from Neanderthal times didn’t change much …
Cave bear rituals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trknGSkb330&ab_channel=JosephCampbellFoundation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stlx2ThWGq4&ab_channel=IrishinFinland

Interestingly enough, the first time I ever ‘journeyed’ – with no specific intent in mind but just to see if it could be done, I kinda centered and balanced myself first and then whooooosh - I was flying up in the air above this deep ravine. On the top of the ravine was an old run down, more like a hunting shed, but made of logs, which I examined. Then looking down into the ravine, there was something dark and rectangle shaped moving there. Flying down I saw it was a bear. Followed the bear and it took me to this one tree. There were offerings pinned onto the trunk of that tree. After examining it, I didn’t know what to do next – should I perhaps go up that tree? But NO!!! - a really strong, like cyclonic wind blowing sideways picked me up and hurried me out of there.
Later I thought that must have been the bear-skull-tree the bear had shown me.

Then the first time I ‘journeyed’ within a group, this new age shamanic circle heh. It was the moose that now appeared who then showed me the tree that would be willing to be trained to send the moose spirit back up to heavens … by burying its bones under it.
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1753663&postcount=40

Although our totems, neither the bear nor the moose are my ‘totems’.

Have been to that ravine of my first journey on another OBE-occasion also, flying over a Lapland landscape (which I painted after the journey), a place I had never seen, but later as I discovered my Forest Saami relatives and then looked up on the net where they come from - OMG my painting!

So, when that Nicholls guy told the story about journeying up to Norway and seeing an island shaped like a boot but the other way round than the Italy boot … and then looking it up on the net to verify … I thought yeah, tell me about it!

There is truth to journeying … Harner seems to take people to fantasy lands, but Nicholls, well he at least seems to have had genuine experiences …

[eezi-ulgen]

Not evil, not sorcery, but paranormal nevertheless - something totemic & shamanic anyways, which reminds me of the Amerind “shaking tent” ceremonies.
We also had something similar to that.


I've been to shaking tent ceremonies (Northern Cree) which is very akin to the yuwipi (Lakota) which I have a theory that what's called the dark tent ceremonies are all very related and are a North circumpolar practice and the Bear is one of the main Spirit teachers and healers of the dark tent societies...So in North Europe, North Asia and North America, I see interrelated through the dark tent ceremonies and the Bear...Which all these peoples have Neanderthal DNA which I think these ceremonies survive from and have branched out from......Just sharing a couple of theories I have that make me ponder things...

Shaking tent
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/24a6ca_138665d1d9ca4961b7836e1bbcb79e9d~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_720,h_531,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/24a6ca_138665d1d9ca4961b7836e1bbcb79e9d~mv2.jpg

...Peace...

[sentient]

Shaking tent
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/24a6ca_138665d1d9ca4961b7836e1bbcb79e9d~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_720,h_531,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/24a6ca_138665d1d9ca4961b7836e1bbcb79e9d~mv2.jpg
What a great image eezi-ulgen, what a gem!

Last night I also went looking for images and found this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/34/db/b9/34dbb9758d134d090a2ece154fe2c9d7.jpg
How similar and familiar the story ….

We have about 200 (is the word pseudonym?) - names for the bear to talk about it, but so as not to summon it …
We also say that “forest moves”, when there is a bear moving in the forest.
Love this picture also from the Northwest Coast called the “Eldest Son” here. The bear is maybe listening turning its head, but it is like from “I am listening” to (silencing the mind) “the forest is listening” - *shift* of expanded listening perspective ….
https://i.ibb.co/8PZBHNh/eldest-son.jpg

I see interrelated through the dark tent ceremonies and the Bear.
And the wolf – no?:
https://i.ibb.co/vV9Q358/Northern-Lights.jpg

There are the stories and then there are the ‘journeys’, which despite the new age are best not altogether be thrown out, like the baby with the bathwater … and then there are the situations when as if ‘checkmated’ by the 7 directions - that ancestral connection makes its appearance, makes itself known …

Love the way – in your picture eezi-ulgen, the bear has 3 bubbles coming out of its month, the tent is like when the 4th bubble hits or am I just imagining and arrogantly distorting things here …. (???)

Also love this song, elements in it a ‘journey’ in itself.
The light and fluffy foreground set in the deep background and the emphasis on 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAyl7_ha8a4&ab_channel=JosephFireCrow-Topic

Best not assume or come to any conclusions about similarities, just taking note of elements …

[eezi-ulgen]

And the wolf – no?:
https://i.ibb.co/vV9Q358/Northern-Lights.jpg

Yes and no...In the traditions I have been apart of which I will call "Dark Tent Ceremonies" and Dark Tent Ceremonies is a term that I read that is used by the intellectuals that classify ceremonies of various peoples that are North circumpolar Ceremonies that are held in the dark...I have never heard it used in real Life...
Anywho when attending Ceremonies of a Dark tent variety which I'm speaking from experience, of the Lakota (Yuwipi,Lawampi,and Purification Lodge) the Cree (Shaking Tent and Purification Lodge) the Anishinaabe/Chippewa (Midewiwin Lodge and Purification Lodge) and others that are under the classification of the Dark Tent...All the former Ceremonies are performed in total darkness and for the purpose of healing and or searching for things and or answers to a dilemma of importance...

I've said all that to say that I cannot recall one time that a Wolf Spirit was called in for such purposes in a Dark Tent Ceremony...So strictly speaking from the perspective of a Dark Tent Ceremony performed on this side of the North hemisphere the Bear is Chief of the Healing Spirits used in Dark Tent...
The Bear is Chief of the Medicines and Foods and is closest to Human in behavior by standing and walking on 2 legs...Also the Bear has the Winter sleep in the Spirit world that gives him that knowledge to transverse or transcend the realms or dimensions...All of the Medicine people I have been in Dark Tent Ceremonies with used and called in the Bear and always said he was Chief of Medicines...

The Wolf I would say is a Chief in it's own purposes...Yes??
I cannot speak from experience on the Wolf, only that I wear and would depend on it's fur for keeping warm...I know Wolf is Brother to Humans in many ways, but Bear is Chief Medicine in the Dark Tent Ceremonies, at least the ones I have been in...
Whew...

https://www.thehorsemanfoundation.org/traditions-and-transformations/morrisseau-medicine-bear

P.S. the above opinions I wrote about are based on my experience but please keep in mind that this is from a layman's perspective and I am talking of others cultural beliefs that have been told to me...So if I misrepresent anything, I offer my apologies in advance...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

Best not assume or come to any conclusions about similarities, just taking note of elements …

Totally agree...

[eezi-ulgen]

Dark Tent Ceremonies is a term that I read that is used by the intellectuals that classify ceremonies of various peoples that are North circumpolar Ceremonies that are held in the dark...

Here is one of the papers that I first read about certain Ceremonies being refereed to as Dark Tent...Also you will see that there is also Light Tent which is not conducted in the Dark...

I'm not sure if it will open without a account, but holding my fingers crossed.
https://www.academia.edu/42638588/Dark_Tent_and_Light_Tent_Two_Ways_of_Travelling_in _the_Invisible

If this link don't work, sorry...I tried googling other places that may speak on Dart Tent & Light Tent but I was unsuccessful in finding anything that refers to the Dark Tent and Light Tent references that lump many Northern circumpolar ceremonies together with their similarities...
I can however copy a map where the purple represents the Dark Tent and the yellow represents the Light Tent...
https://html.scribdassets.com/8qh84beczk7r26gx/images/7-4156d6e1d6.jpg

[sentient]

I'm not sure if it will open without a account, but holding my fingers crossed.
https://www.academia.edu/42638588/Dark_Tent_and_Light_Tent_Two_Ways_of_Travelling_in _the_Invisible
Great find!
& Yeah, that is perhaps the summary of a longer PDF file I was looking for about the ceremony of the “shaking tent” Siberian shamans do.

From the eighteenth century onwards, Russian observers have described divination seances held in the dark among the West Siberian Ob Ugrians, in particular the Khant. The classic scenario is as follows: in order to discover where to find abundant game or fish, a ritual specialist is tied up in a totally dark tent, during the night. Bird calls and animal cries make themselves heard and these inform the hunters where these creatures are to be found. Sometimes the dwelling shakes when the spirits arrive. After calling, some animals such as the bear begin to speak in human language and people can chat with them. If a sceptic doubts the reality of the scene, a bear or squirrel’s paw may hit that person. At the end of the performance, the invisible beings help the shaman to free himself from his ties. The officiant is not remunerated and does not wear any special clothing (Fedorova 2010: 171; Kulemzin 2004: 50–51;Novicki 1941: 54)
Curious how similar that also sounds to what you described, except you emphasized the healing aspect.
Here is the bear carrying a medicine pouch – yes?
https://agnes.queensu.ca/site/uploads/2021/04/220728-011137-Agnes-Etherington-926_2-848x550.jpg

Well, since it looks like that bear or moose ancestor story is most prevalent among the Forest and the Skolt Saami, it is kinda no wonder they turned up whilst ‘journeying’:
https://www.karhuntassu.fi/en/front-page/history/sami-culture-and-mythology/bear-or-moose-as-the-ancestral-father/

Also as I mentioned before, among the Eastern i.e. Inari, Forest and Skolt Saami many stories about people shapeshifting into bears are told. When dead bears were skinned, money pouches were found underneath the pelt between the front paws … or so the many stories tell.

One of the comments in the Finnish bear mythology YouTube was:
And then there's wolverine. The walking anger management problem of the forest.
Haha. Fancy having a wolverine as your (totemic) ancestor.
Shouldn’t laugh but.

[WhiteWarrior]

Dark tent sounds completely logical to me. Whenever I do spiritual work I turn off all the light in the room, close screens, close eyes and might pull a blanket over my eyes too. It is the logical way to shut out as much external stimuli as possible. A light tent would be logical too though if there were onlookers or if fire was part of what I was doing.

[sentient]

I just wondered if the “dark tent” was a ‘symbol’ of a bear den?

[sentient]

To put us into the landscape:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rITjvTwU_Tw&ab_channel=YukonWildlifeCams

The pine the bear claws and rubs against is perhaps not spruce but a kind of nordic scots pine, which led the ancestors believe it was the bear’s guardian/protecting spirit tree …

[sentient]

Of course it is sad when a bear cub is orphaned and now lives in captivity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roKvOmCTv28&ab_channel=karhutv

Aina the forestry worker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t78aJYViBBM&ab_channel=karhutv

[sentient]

The Wolf I would say is a Chief in it's own purposes...Yes??
P.S. the above opinions I wrote about are based on my experience but please keep in mind that this is from a layman's perspective and I am talking of others cultural beliefs that have been told to me...So if I misrepresent anything, I offer my apologies in advance...
I’m sure you have got nothing to apologize for!
And thank you very much for your honest recount of your “dark tent” experiences here with the Bear.

Despite our cultural similarity with the Ob-Ugrians (Khanty, Mansi) in regards the Bear ceremonies, I have never attended the “dark tent” ceremony.
Except – ‘it’ happened. 4 synchronistic events hitting at once ‘checkmated’ me and like from the depths of my bone marrow an animal sound was forced/forged out of me and then the wolf arrived with so much racket all around me which lasted about 3-4 days.
Didn’t know what to do with it, so I just witnessed it.

Then again. Had always subconsciously (in my bones) been aware of my Siberian-Turkic connection. (3/4 of my genetic Siberian is Turkic). Does that apply to all Saami? Don’t know. If it did, they would remember it, surely (?) ….
Or does that only apply to the Kola and the Forest Saami? It was interesting to read that for the Forest Saami not only the bear and the moose but also the wolf were important animals. I wonder.
Or does it only apply to me, due to gran’s more recent (than the collectively with Saami - shared ancient) Siberian ancestor? Still don’t know.

Continuing from the link you provided, it is still in the similar ballpark imo:
In the early twentieth century, at the other extremity of Siberia, near the Bering Strait, the ethnographer Waldemar Bogoras participated in ritual performances that were similar in many ways. Among the various activities of Chukchi shamans, the most frequent type of performance (which only they perform and in which they demonstrate their most amazing talents) is the ritual of ‘separate voices’. This rite takes place at night, after eating dinner, in a tent that is completely dark. Participants group around the shaman, who sits upright with his torso naked, sometimes tied up but alternatively sometimes free to play the drum. S/he sings melodies, at first softly and then more and
more strongly. The chant has no words and consists of a short melody repeated indefinitely: ‘Ah, ya, ka, ya, ka, ya, ka!’ The helpers do not sing, but from time to time emit encouraging interjections to support the shaman. If he has a drum, the shaman uses it as a resonance chamber, directing the sounds into the darkness. In this way, the shaman’s voice seems to move into different places
in the tent. After 15–30 minutes, the shaman makes his lips vibrate while shaking his head, and one hears various humans and animal noises and cries; these are the ‘separate voices’ of the spirits (kelet) beginning to arrive.
In the words of Bogoras:
Some voices are at first faint, as if coming from afar; as they gradually
approach, they increase in volume, and at last they rush into the room,
pass through it and out, decreasing, and dying away in the remote
distance. Other voices come from above, pass through the room and
seem to go underground, where they are heard as if from the depths of
the earth.


Turkic Tengrist Wolf Totem (which still ‘lives’ in the collective subconscious or like in cellular memory):
(But not to be directly associated with Turkey):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXTgpqSj_yE&ab_channel=Khan%27sDen

How might this relate to Americas? Yous have the Red Wolf. Tengrists have the Blue Wolf.
Aren’t there 4 wolves altogether in some of the old stories? Like the wolves from 4 directions or something???
Or is that some kind of a constructed new age story?

[sentient]

The ritual of 4 wolves????
https://www.zennergi.com/en/aanbod/ritual-four-wolves/

Was this actually an ancient Tengri ritual or what!?

Another source:
https://www.facebook.com/people/Native-American-Turanian-Brotherhood-FIRST-NATIONS-First/100064594213599/
First, shamans utter different sounds at the beginning of some rituals in order to call their spirits. This ’shaman’s call‘ includes different types of ’nature sounds‘ such as the whistling of the wind or the wolf’s howl. This call is the shaman’s way of asking the land for assistance in the ritual. The wolf as a part of the land is therefore included...
Second, the wolf used to serve as a mount for shamans to ride to faraway places fast while being in a trance...
Third, the shaman also uses to let wolves bring spirits to him while he was shamanizing. In past times it was even thought possible for some powerful shamans to turn themselves into a wolf...

Yes – no …
It is more like a long time ago the wolf gave ‘one’ its call - ‘one’ could later use to call it .…

& Is this Russian (perhaps Siberian admixed) guy for realz or totally new age or somewhere in between?
Looks like yet another money making scheme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCa8OGC45dA&ab_channel=AhamkaraFoxArrow

[WhiteWarrior]

I had a lot of native related dreams last night. Don't know which culture. I was shown some simple representations of humans, like silhouettes. Such as might be painted on a drum. The first was red and meant male. The second was blue and meant female. There was a third, but it was NOT to be drawn, just implied. Does this sound familiar to any of you guys?

[eezi-ulgen]

& Is this Russian (perhaps Siberian admixed) guy for realz or totally new age or somewhere in between?
Looks like yet another money making scheme:

Yeah, your probably spot on with Ahamkara being in between, I've bumped into his stuff here and there, I would say he is commercializing his training and that sure seems more popular nowadays...

It's such a hard call these days...Do Shamans stay isolated and financially broke and traditional, and maybe die out and we loose knowledge like has been going on with the crusading Christians and industrialization for some time or does some commercial practices get excepted?? I still struggle with these questions and have no real answers...Of course there are real plastic shamans practicing real plastic medicine digging deep into peoples plastic cards...

So I ran across this Youtube of a Shaking Tent practitioner...
It kind of AWED me and gave me hope in the future...
I wanted to share it here but then I didn't want to share it here...
But here it is...It is long (1:47:47), but yada yada yada LOL which I think translates to blah blah blah...Well I don't want color anyone's perception...Take it or leave it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxusCVa54Hs&t=1300s

[eezi-ulgen]

Does this sound familiar to any of you guys?

Yep, dreaming can be an important tool in ones Life...
Figuring and sorting all the meanings can be a challenge...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

WhiteWarrior
Like this??
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818UkS8vKOL._SX500_.jpg
https://i.etsystatic.com/19580343/r/il/b879b0/5251638316/il_794xN.5251638316_81h8.jpg

First thing that came to mind is the NAC or Peyote Way...Their colors are red and blue and represent the dual nature in Life......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onQqJCuLR1I

Also Comanche flag is red and blue...

...Peace...

[WhiteWarrior]

Very interesting. I was looking at Saami runes and all I could find that all such art was in the same color. The NAC as such I am not familiar with and I am so going to study that further. Thanks!

[eezi-ulgen]

Very interesting. I was looking at Saami runes and all I could find that all such art was in the same color.

So you do have some idea of the culture and style of the silhouette...I see... More along the lines of this style on page (#3) ????https://real.mtak.hu/10487/1/Shamans%20and%20Symbols1_pdfa.pdf

Or the type you might see on a Sami drum...
https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/denmark-gives-ownership-rare-sami-drum-norway

Sami flag is a good symbol of red masculine and blue feminine...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Sami_flag.svg

[sentient]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxusCVa54Hs&t=1300s

59:26 >
The way the shake tent works, it’s an immediate event – it’s like right now - there is no time delay.
It is weird, it is like an open door to the spirit world, right now …
Shaking tent itself is a living spirit, it is like a vessel for many other spirits to come in …
Connecting to the loved ones that have passed ….

Yeah. That is it, that is right. That is in the similar ballpark.
You are put on the immediate spot – ‘checkmated’ (by the “spirit design”) – you make the call or rather it just comes out of the depths of your being involuntarily … (that was like given to your ancestor long ago with a wolf connection) and the portal opens.

Which is why I said:
Well, Totems can show up (not in a journey but energetically) but that is if one has actually had a totemic animal spirit ancestor or ancestors, I assume. But that is like opening a portal to the “Ghost Realm” – and boy – do they make a racket (in this realm) to let you know they have been ‘awakened’ or ‘contacted’.

I did not see any orbs, nor did I know what to do with it, I wasn’t afraid though but was just awed by all the racket. Everything all around me was banging, cracking, tooting, chiming and howling in the sequence of 4.

Never even thought about the possibility of it being made into a ceremony. But I guess it must have been for the ancestors.

If I tried now, nothing would surely happen, because ‘you’ don’t do it really – spirits arrange it.

[eezi-ulgen]

Which is why I said: Well, Totems can show up (not in a journey but energetically) but that is if one has actually had a totemic animal spirit ancestor or ancestors, I assume.


Yeah, I am following you and I agree 100% "the portal opens"...This stuff is hard to put into words but when your Spirit helpers come that are directly connected by DNA Energy and is your Roots or coming out of your Roots there is that confident Power and merging that happens...Not imagination or concentration or psyche vision but a full on merger that can effect this physical reality, well now your getting somewhere...That's why I have so much respect for people who can work on such a Powerful level, because it takes commitment to Live a Life different from others to help others...

That is why that vid effected me so...I felt what this guy is working through or with...I would wager he is for real...Plus he gave enough information that I could go ask others from his community to ask if he's legit if need be...That was rare for me to find on the interwebs...

...Peace...

[WhiteWarrior]

So you do have some idea of the culture and style of the silhouette...

The dream is already too far gone from my memory that I can recall the shape of the humanoid bodies in detail. I should have made a drawing that morning. But the red and blue gender distinction remains clear. I looked through that PDF but could not see anything else that matched colorwise.

The Saami flag, according to wikipedia, has red for the sun and blue for the moon. I read a few related articles but could not find anywhere a Saami gender color code. If anything they mention red as the color of the sun's sons and daughters.

[eezi-ulgen]

If anything they mention red as the color of the sun's sons and daughters.

Alright, I was just trying to see if I could pry a few more details from you...To see if we could find a direction to investigate...
As far as Sami goes sentient would know more then I would...

Though like I said in the first response to the dream world in post #70 "Figuring and sorting all the meanings can be a challenge"...

I didn't mean to send you on any wild goose chase...
I certainly don't want to waste time and send you down any unnecessary rabbit holes...

If I were investigating one of my dreams I would start with my own known DNA ancestral roots unless I had information pointing else where...Seeing if my intuition kicks in it's spidey senses...

..Peace...

[WhiteWarrior]

If I were investigating one of my dreams I would start with my own known DNA ancestral roots unless I had information pointing else where...

..Peace...

An interesting idea, but sadly I have a fair idea of where my genes point. Several relatives of mine have been keenly interested in genealogy and as a result I have a fairly extensive family tree map. It goes back to the viking kings along some lines, but most likely half the country can say that - those guys knew how to have a good time. Some lines are anchored up in the far north, but no Saami or any other non 'generic white guy' genes have shown up at all as far as the researchers have found.

Heh. For what it is worth... I live on an old battlefield. Seven wars have been fought here, as far back as history is known. Some of the local churches are from the 12th century and archeological research shows that there were pre-christian religious buildings and events that those churches were built on. We're definitely talking Asatru. So my house could be built on spilled blood from WW2, or on a Norse blot altar, and none would be the wiser today. It would be quite interesting if that was affecting my dreams but beside all those ww2 dreams I have.... hey wait a minute...

[sentient]

As I was trying to formulate a joint response to you WhiteWarrior and to you eezi-ulgen, I now see that post no:77 beat me to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxusCVa54Hs&ab_channel=ShamansDirectory
Loved the story of the pipe, how he, when he first saw it got all goosepimply. The pipe ‘spoke’ to him, it meant something to him … and turned out his family actually had had a real historical connection to that specific pipe.
As fantastic as the pipe story is, and as much as I might psych myself up into feeling it, no go. The pipe just doesn’t ‘live’ in my subconscious, nor in our collective subconscious or cellular memory – I’m just not connected to the Amerind pipe lore nor its energies.

But the story reminded me of the first time (might have mentioned it before) when I saw an image of a white hide drum with red markings on it. That was like his pipe feeling. And some rabbit holes later - turned out our family has got a drum connection.

So, the idea is not to look connections elsewhere, but within yourself WhiteWarrior. But you must really want to know the answer, whatever it turns out to be. Ask Spirit to show you & then let go of your request c/o Spirit. And one day when you least expect it perhaps, something catches your attention that ‘speaks’ to you directly – to your whole being. You sense it, you feel it, you know it. And what that something about it is - is then worth questioning further - going down those rabbit holes.

***

Did get my Kindle and a few frustrating anger management moments later also got the book “Shamanic Zone” written by – most probably – a distant Saami relative (RIP).
So far, he made a good point about listening. Many a sound had caught my (other dimensional) attention and drawn me into a light trance. That was a good piece of advice.

But (so far) the rest – I cannot recognize it apart from it being in the flavour of Harner’s new age neo shamanic reconstruction … And the Saami bits – so far – I’m scratching my head - what is he on about?!
Must say that I am only familiar with the Karelian-Saami admix blur. And we lived in the Eastern (Novgorod Orthodox) cultural sphere not Western and there was like 700+ years separating us. Or something like that. All this talk about Saami being ‘one people’ – well, there are differences …

***

This is a long video and I don’t expect yous to watch it right through.
It is like a re-enactment of the old Karelian ways.
But I had to laugh @ 1:40 > about the magpie omen lol. (Usually, magpie was considered a bad omen, but then again saw once in an environmental forest centre an old painting about magpie being a shaman’s animal spirit helper, so who knows – one should only go by personal experiences).
And the dream lol.
Once somebody started with these – there’d be no end of people joining in with their omen stories, dreams, premonitions, visions, communications with the departed, teleportations, spirit doubles – well, you name it. Synchronicities of them.
This we shared – Karelians and Saami alike, recognizing each other’s stories from our own experiences ...
But if Finns came into the house (especially Lutheran) everybody would fall silent, turn into mutes in fear that we would be seen as village idiots – which we all were/are, but that is besides the point.
& what is the point of telling these stories if the other person cannot relate to them at all …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4NzFMGYahg&ab_channel=PekkaSuutari

[sentient]

Journeying

How I discovered the so called “shamanic journeying” .
Sorry, I only know how to talk about personal experiences.

At the time I was simultaneously studying and working with 2 groups. First Nations and a Western group and because their respective ‘reality orientations’ (how we perceive reality as reality) were so very different, the difference of the energy these orientations also created was even physically palpable and it was driving me absolutely nuts having to shift from one orientation to another all the time. This also culminated into internal crises point of “who am I”, “am I Indigenous or am I Western?”

At home my very first vision, when I was about 3-4 years old came to mind. In it I saw like in a black and white photograph a group of people of dark complexion, with matted hair and with pelts on, to whom I felt gran and I were intimately connected.
And just then this music called “The Ganges” was playing on the radio, which was almost putting me into a trance. - Which gave me the idea of a past-life-hypno-therapy, because maybe that could give some answers to that first vision.

From thought to action, found a clinical hypnotherapist who also did past life regressions and made the appointment.
A night before the session, saw a dream, where the ‘dream guide’ was telling me that I am going to the animal house to meet my mother. And I thought: “Who do I think I was in my past life JC-born in a manger!”

*

Entered into the therapist’s office and opposite to the door – on the wall was a large photograph of River Ganges. Seeing my startled look, the therapist went on to explain that he had lived by the River Ganges in India.
(Synchronicity check – omen check, so I thought I could trust the situation).

In a nutshell, what unfolded was a scene, where I was a 3-4 years old in a tipi-like-tent and opposite me was this very Siberian looking lady. I was bouncing on the pelts, which were laid so thick on the ‘tipi’ floor. The tipi canvas was perhaps also made of animal hides … (hence the dream about the “animal house” - check).

When the hypnotist then asked me about the meaning of the vision potentially being carried into this life, something inside of me unblocked and I started bawling my eyes out uncontrollably about the vital need to remember … & this lasted for hours, I just couldn’t stop. People on the bus-stop asked me if I was alright and I told them I was great, just been to a hypno-therapist :sad2:

Later, at home, I wondered if I could induce the same kind of ‘hypnotic trance’ by myself, and this is how I learned “journeying”.
This was before I learned about DNA and all that (physical reality validation check), which followed later …

Haven’t done journeying for ages but ….

[sentient]

Reality Orientation
A normal state of consciousness is characterized by immobilization of a structured frame of reference in the background of attention which supports, interprets and gives meaning to all experience. This frame of reference remains a superstructure of consciousness only by means of active mental striving, which in fact it is not usually conscious.
~ Shor

All our views of reality are conditioned by an unspoken model of the world - and that model is always arbitrary and limiting. It is mistake to take a model of reality for the reality itself.
~ Stephen Forrest

In other words:
We all have personal subconscious patterns of the psyche that are also part of a functional collective subconscious patterning or ‘programming’ and it seems, that during the first 3 to 5 years of age, a child becomes acquainted to this collective unspoken model of reality, which then for the rest of one’s life forms a kind of subconscious 'core-system' way of automatic subconscious functioning.

Unless we do become transparent to our own ‘unspoken programming of the psyche’ i.e. become aware of our own subconscious ways we perceive reality as reality i.e. our superstructure - we cannot see or we cannot even fathom that other 'programs' exist, imagining our own particular "reality orientation" to be the all-encompassing-reality.

*

Lucid dreaming is just lucid dreaming – some people learn it, doesn’t matter what background.
If one says ‘shamanic lucid dreaming’, one will add something to that ability, which isn’t necessarily there. Same with ‘journeying’. If one thinks it makes one a shaman, one is a fool and will only find fool’s gold. ‘Journeying’ is just a tool.

What does make a difference though is the reality orientation of the tool user.
New age neo shamanism pins it to the Western unspoken model of the world, but like out of context, because it is the ‘shamanic reality orientation’ which gives rise to shamanic phenomena.

When indigenous children were taken away from their communities, they lost the connection to their culture - their original collective unspoken way of functioning was replaced by another model.
The place where I worked a bit, I saw some of these people come back in efforts to reconnect to their cultural roots.
With Elders present, some of them from a few minutes up to a few days got it and shifted/switched orientations. Some never could - no matter how much aboriginal data knowledge they acquired and/or how many of the old practices they learned.

Don’t know if I was able to express this, so that it would make sense … ?
We all see through a cultural prism, but often we do not recognize the prism itself.
And when your ‘indigenous’ cousin/uncle - brother sells your culture, but now through a prism of another's – this is worrying.

[sentient]

Took me awhile to get round to reading the whole “Dark Tent and Light Tent” paper. “Two ways of travelling in the invisible”. (Does not mean the neo shamanic drum journeys, which is just ‘shamanism’ in the Western new age imagination).
https://www.academia.edu/42638588/Dark_Tent_and_Light_Tent_Two_Ways_of_Travelling_in _the_Invisible

I always thought the “Dark Tent” (ballpark) was the “Lower World”, the realm of ancestors and totemic ancestors, because of the way energies behave - manifest themselves, i.e. make themselves known. How the portal opens to communicate with the departed etc …
Didn’t know about the healing function of it though.

The Light Tent:
For the Sel’kup, the song-itinerary of the shaman is ‘the route trodden by the grandfather’. In terms of prosody and music, these chants have a stable structure; they are typically organised in verses of eight syllables, which distinguishes them from ordinary nonshamanic songs, and this is characteristic also of other Samoyedic peoples of the north (Dobzhanskaia 2008: 228; Prokof’eva 1949; 1981).

Shaman's Journey_ Nine Worlds (We say 7, but do they count in 2 Lower Worlds?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-EQtrL7Ik&ab_channel=TomMiller

From 1:44 to 2:18
This is also how Karelian Kalevala is sung. Saami apparently did also know it once upon a time, but now it is forgotten, at least among the Western Saami. 'Meter' which was also copied by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow for his “Song of Hiawatha”.

He gallops around the fire on his invisible reindeer (or on his bear if he is setting off for the underworld).
Yeah. Bear or Wolf for the Lower World - Reindeer or a Horse for the Upper World.
Energies of the Upper World manifest/teach differently.

[eezi-ulgen]

Shaman's journey nine worlds is a creative mix and puts my senses at ease...

I'm just fixated on "Spirit design" which I can see/sense in your telling of your experiences...Spirit design is also what made me keen on the video of the shaking tent practitioner...

The academic paper on the Dark tent Light tent made me wonder how much the ceremonies could be tracked like they do language and DNA...I thought it was an interesting take...

The big question, how does all this information help me walk forward while respecting Spirit design??? I can see my destination into the next world coming and presently I stand here...The answer is always the same...I need to get out of the way and follow Spirit design the best I can as I have been doing for some years...That means letting go and trusting in Spirit for what lays ahead and Living in the Present... Sheesh, again and still the same answer and formula Spirit always has...What no Chrystal ball???

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

we cannot see or we cannot even fathom that other 'programs' exist, imagining our own particular "reality orientation" to be the all-encompassing-reality.


Yes, I am guilty of this many times...Seeing I work from my own information it can take a minute or more to remember all people work from their own information and were they operate from...To be of service to another I need to try and meet them where they are at if I can fathom it...

[sentient]

Shaman's journey nine worlds is a creative mix and puts my senses at ease...
Oh, it has all those creative add-ons, but I trust the old museum held recordings were authentic.

I'm just fixated on "Spirit design" which I can see/sense in your telling of your experiences...Spirit design is also what made me keen on the video of the shaking tent practitioner...
Yes. Sounds like he had it in him since birth, but wasn’t consciously aware of it. It looks/smells like a “Spirit design”. Who he is and the circumstantial events which conspired, led him to recover/remember & renew/continue the practice.

These Spirit design stories give me hope too, because they indicate that all is not lost in the ‘indigenous world’. Some people still have an alive link to Spirit i.e. to the Power of the Universe, but in their own particular traditional cultural ways.

[sentient]

Yes, I am guilty of this many times...Seeing I work from my own information it can take a minute or more to remember all people work from their own information and were they operate from...To be of service to another I need to try and meet them where they are at if I can fathom it...
Yes. It is a marvel to witness how these – what I would call (from my cultural prism); - the “Upper World” Elders work. How they can *shift* to meet the other person on their ‘level’ (where their awareness is ‘assemblaged’) i.e. where they are AT, and “seeing” their individual problem/block in their alignment with Spirit, they either address it by speaking about it in their terms or call on Spirit, bringing about a Spirit design circumstance, which will give that other person the experience thus the realization.
But of course like the proverb says: “You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.”
Because, after the realization, it is up to the free will of the person what they will do with it.

*

I am not against Christianity, but here Christianity has often failed imo. A priest is not usually a shaman or an Elder who can call i.e. bring down a “spirit design” through alive link.

I still love this sermon “The Light That Began It All” and respect the old (Greek) Orthodox Church and the memory of the hermit monks who came to live in our wilderness areas.
They said that the Light (which every atom in the blade of grass emanates) was Christ.
Cool, we could accept that. We had seen it, the Light seen about the Sacred trees for example. We knew it - where did they think our “animism” (everything has spirit) came from!?
They said that this person Jesus, died for us. Cool, so Jesus was a shaman then - we thought, who when initiated by the Upper World Spirit “dies to himself and is brought back into the body, rearranged - in order to be able to serve Totality”.
So, we accepted Jesus. No worries. With those monks, we understood things in the same Spirit.
Until the Lutherans came and deemed all our beliefs to be of evil, of satan. And the Sacred trees that bathed in the Light were cut etc. etc. etc. Ahh, the pain!

I have only seen/witnessed 2 people brightly radiating this Light. Both were/are aboriginal. But their energy was such a high vibration, it kinda gave me “vertigo”. (Wasn’t a good omen about my readiness, and herein lies the danger. IF one starts on a spiritual path, one better finish it).

The Saami/Karelian surname “Valkeapää” translated “white head” originally meant a person, who had a bright halo. I think it is in the drum designs as well. Those people with many vertical lines above their heads - the more lines, the brighter their halo.

“The Light That Began It All”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e7jxmABxcw&ab_channel=St.MaryOrthodoxChurch

[sentient]

Orthodox lectures on Alaskan Culture and Stories - video links which I had posted before.
(Only for those who are interested in Orthodox – Native stories as these videos are long).

This is very similar to how Christianity was introduced to Karelians, Forest and Skolt Saami, Tlingits being shamanic as well …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivp5B1ky9Gg&ab_channel=StInnocentOrthodoxChurch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBaZj9FysPU&ab_channel=StInnocentOrthodoxChurch

[sentient]

Light

A bit about the “Source light” or “Light of Spirit” ALL of us, the whole creation is made of.

Shamanic-Death-Experience is often referred to as Near-Death-Experience, but these are not the same although they do share similarities.

Shamanic Death is when ‘you’ die to ‘yourself’ and become a zero, a hollow bone (in this world) in order for Spirit to manifest through ‘you’, and afterwards the perceived reality (in this world) is quite similar to what people experience during NDEs.

*

I discovered these NDE videos relatively recently, f.e.x. this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmrWT6D8oNk&ab_channel=NextLevelSoulPodcast

48:01
“To know we are all One”.
Every real spiritual awakening is a realization of this by concretely experiencing it.

49:38
Heavenly Realm Source Light is not another planet and although people often see this Light during NDEs it is not after physical death only when this light dawns; - is perceived, shamans see it (in this world) after their shamanic-death-experience, when they are back in the body, but 'rearranged'. The view is seeing matter and Spirit in union – the same way we can see/perceive space and form simultaneously.

In most of the NDEs, when people see/meet a ‘being of light’ they automatically assume it to be Jesus. Thank goodness in this NDE he was set straight.
But maybe one could call this Source Light “Christ Consciousness” or even “Awareness Light of Nonduality” (this direct inner knowing, which is like telepathy, but immediate).
Buddhists I think call this the “Clear Light”, Christians call it the “Light of God/Christ” and shamanics the “Light of Spirit”, but it is the same Light. There is no other Light.

These NDEs really help in illustrating shamanic worldview.

[WhiteWarrior]

Dunno where else to put this little story. I was going on a brief astral journey last night with my spirit animal, an eagle. As we made ready I suddenly realized I had never given him a name or heard one for him, so I asked him. And got a reply. It sounded latinish and didn't really seem appropriate for an eagle at first look but I accepted it. We went about out business and later on when I got to the laptop to look it up. Turns out it didn't mean what I thought, but something rather more spiritual and dignified. So, yeah, I know the name of my spirit animal now and I'm a bit humbled.

[eezi-ulgen]

These NDEs really help in illustrating shamanic worldview.

Yep, Once you have merged with the Light of Creation there is no going back...
I would like to be ignorant at times still...
It don't seem to work though, you can't unsee it or un-BE it or Unknow it...
I've had both a NDE and OBE's that has changed me...
I did not see Jesus though,LOL...I instantly recognized the Light of the Creator and it knew me and I knew it was my HOME...
Sheesh, it is what Breathes me/us...What a ride this Life is for sure...And by us I mean Everything, All my Relations, Plant, Animal, Rock, Water, Fire etc.etc.
But yes methinks you can call it Christ consciousness...

Loved all of your post #88 and that story in the video is familiar to me I have listened to his story a while back, not sure if it was the same podcast but was the same guy for sure...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

So, yeah, I know the name of my spirit animal now and I'm a bit humbled.

It is always a good thing to be humbled, especially when working with/in/around Spirit...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

Here is a vid. (57mins.)
I enjoyed it but I can't speak for the accuracy of the information...
I do enjoy the Brother's style and it seems like he tries to do a bit of research...
Sami Shamanism & Polytheism: The Wisdom of the Ancient Nomads of Scandinavia, Beliefs, Deities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN_n-CzmsgQ&t=1486s

Nobody needs to watch it, I just put it here so I can find
it in the future and someone else might enjoy it also
one never knows where a rabbit hole will lead you...LOL...
He has many other vids. on history and Spirituality...
Speaking of, here is another:
The Undermentioned Influence of Siberian Shamanism: The World Tree, Christmas Mythos, Bear Worship
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV2GfeExjs4

[sentient]

Loved all of your post #88 and that story in the video is familiar to me I have listened to his story a while back, not sure if it was the same podcast but was the same guy for sure...
Yeah, I thought he was good, and once you have had a NDE or a shamanic-death-experience, what they often describe is very familiar, what you have also seen/experienced, no?

Would love to hear your NDE and OBE stories, if you care to recollect them eezi-ulgen … !
But then again, it is a private matter.

Must say, I really liked this man also as he is so normal, natural and level headed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCV7ayCLA1A&ab_channel=ComingHome

Carlos Castaneda the grandfather of all these new age frauds and a dangerous one imo. however coined or stole from somewhere some really good phrases. Like the “assemblage-point-of-awareness”.
One minute your awareness is assemblaged in-the-body as “I am” and the next minute your awareness is assemblaged out-of-the-body as “I am”. Or in the spiritual awakening, one minute you are identified with the body “I am” and the next you are the Totality, Oneness “I AM”.

This story also reminded me of a neighbour, who died suddenly, who at first didn’t realize he was dead and just got so pi**ed off the world had shut him out, that nobody would see nor hear him – so he came to my place to hang out for a few days for chats until his funeral - and then he was gone.

Maybe there are 7 realms?
Because of this man's (level of) vibration this guy seems to have passed the lower (Astral?) realms and gone straight – what I would have (rightly or wrongly) called the “Causal Realm”. (His awareness assemblaged there).

The feeling is right, the bliss, the serenity, the colours, the classical piano ….
Mood:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/81/3a/57/813a57dc3e315ef98128bcc39c87875c--maxfield-parrish-classical-art.jpg
& it is not moon worship, but the closest image to describe the indescribable conscious white light within the blue….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxB9N1MmKOY&ab_channel=DELACULTE

I’ve had 2 experiences of this Realm. First one was personal, the second was in a trance, when a childhood friend who had passed away showed me his death, how his spirit in euphoria rose towards the Light and then how he, before reincarnating was in this Causal Realm, where the most beautiful classical piano was heard.
At the time, I thought it was because his grandfather or grand uncle had been a classical composer.
Needless to say – I did not want to come out of that trance, but then something always comes to jolt one back to ‘this reality’. So, I can understand why this man in the video got hooked on the "Causal Realm" and did not want to let go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIQE8yRq5Q&ab_channel=Shaman%27sQuestTV

From Causal Realm we seem to become aware of past lives and reincarnation.

And thanks for the links to the other videos eezi-ulgen.

[eezi-ulgen]

Like the “assemblage-point-of-awareness”.
One minute your awareness is assemblaged in-the-body as “I am” and the next minute your awareness is assemblaged out-of-the-body as “I am”.

Ha Ha that's funny, I was just thinking about that phrase...
I know when mine aligned...I was always off kilter always living in the fight or flight mode...
I've been given two vision of my self burnt into my psyche as a glowing pure being of white Light in my chest...
First it was off to the left for years patiently sitting crossed leg style...
Then years later my real ego-less glowing self moved to the center and is standing on a pink lotus flower in pond water in a tree style yoga pose..
I said what that "F" is this, then said oh yeah I guess it must be my Asian coming through...
I remember you probably mentioned that assemblage-point before or it was from reading Carlos...
Back I said, oh that might be the same thing...It's been a real blessing to remember my assemblage-point on in the day to day
and take a break from my mental activities, by meditating on calming the waters...

[eezi-ulgen]

Would love to hear your NDE and OBE stories, if you care to recollect them eezi-ulgen … !
But then again, it is a private matter.

I can't speak to what a shaman experiences, though I imagine all things are connected in various ways...

I am yet to figure out how to put the experiences into words, what is so abstract...
I have shared small bits at a time and every time I do it feels so underwhelming
since words can't touch the real experience...

I see your blue white theme and I did not experience the same...
As to what the levels or realms are called, I have no idea really, I've seen so many names and numbers
of people trying to describe this and that of the Spirit world that it leaves me boggled...
I'm a big believer in The Great Mystery Spirit, since I only had a glimpse and get the real sense that the Spirit world is just so vast and endless...
After a short search this is the best I can do as far as visuals...

In a Inky Black Void a saw a pin prick of Light in the distance.
As it aproached I felt it's warm wind and a wind sound I could see it was Golden
Liquid and Living and it blew right into me and through me and changed me, burning my ego self away instantly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNPufbbgeLY
That's not it but close with out all the rays of light...Just a single Liquid Golden almost ball of Living Light...

Instantly we were Merged and I knew it was the Creator and I was Unconditionally Loved beyond measure and was instantly aware of Infinity
and everything was known in a sense of being HOME and nothing felt strange or out of place, it was the greatest sense
of security and being Loved that I ever could become...
It was a true Merging or Unity or Oneness...
After that initial phase I started asking questions and being answered instantaneously telepathically and visually...I'll stop there...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

I am yet to figure out how to put the experiences into words, what is so abstract...

Here is a person that puts many of the same things I might say but he is a good communicator...About 95% of it I can totally relate to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwtTRJmH1g0

[sentient]

Had to digest and think about your post no. 95 a bit eezi-ulgen.
That was your NDE – yes ?

Since I have not personally had an NDE, I could only go by what my friend had once showed me.
Trying to remember the colour of that Light, I think you are right, it could have been more Golden.
Even though this was my friend’s actual death and not NDE, it felt like dawn. Like two suns arising, the physical and the spiritual light simultaneously glistening on the waves of the lake was breathtaking.
The Spiritual Light he just re-discovered yet had Eternally known ...

Seems like I had written about it twice already on this forum:
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1851113&postcount=18


After that initial phase I started asking questions and being answered instantaneously telepathically and visually...I'll stop there...
And something of that ability you brought back from your experience …. no?

Well, our energy-fields are like radars, both transmitters and receivers …

So, I do think I get your experience, where you are coming from …
Thanks for elaborating on it further ...
Will watch the video later …

[eezi-ulgen]

Had to digest and think about your post no. 95 a bit eezi-ulgen.That was your NDE – yes ?

Yes, NDE or OBE some may classify it not an NDE since there was no documented clinical death...(people get picky LOL)
Since I was nowhere near medical help...So it was during an episode of anaphylaxis...
Which I have had a few episodes of anaphylaxis some non-remarkable just losing consiousness
and some to where I lost hours of time and I can't say how close to death I was,I wasn't here near my body LOL, though I think it
was close enough to classify it as NDE but OBE is good enough, I don't get stuck in the weeds about it...
I'm keyed in on the experience part especially the Absolute Love...
As you nicely describe from your friend...

sentient wrote "A friend from my youth came to visit, 4 years after his passing - wanting me to channel him in order to show me his death.

He didn’t show me the ‘blackness’ – only the moment when his ‘soul’ rose to meet and merge with the most glorious, radiant, brilliant, aware living light ….. i.e. the Source, God, Spirit, Emptiness whatever you want to call it.

And how breathtakingly beautiful Creation is bathing in this light!
Love in the absolute sense."

There are things I try to point out about these experiences, the first is the Love which we are all apart of and we will fully Merge with when we cross over eventually...
The second being that our HOME is in the Spirit world and it's great vastness which I think is incomprehensible with our present earthly state of Being...
Third is that we never die but are Eternal and we have access to great Power that is a Primal Force of Creation that pours out of the Source Creators seemingly Unlimited Unconditional Love...
I may have missed some but I think these 3 points are key and should be peoples focus in their growth as Human Beings...
The how of increasing our Love on earth???
Well our paths are many and we have developed many of these paths and there have been many teachers over the years...
Well maybe increasing the Love,Compassion and Courage is just my path and others have to live the financial, technological, industrial dog eat dog path, I don't know...
I just keep pointing in the Love direction to people, trying not to overwhelm them with intensity...
Which I can get pretty intense at times...
It is like you said "you can lead a horse to water"...
I did NOT want to come back from the Spirit World for sure but they escorted/dragged me back to Live out my Life here,
so I try and leave pointers for people and be of service to my fellow Human Beings...

One other important point is there is help for each of us in Spirit always, whether it's Spirit guides, ancestors or Higher Being or Prime Creator, help is available,
though the help you receive might not be how or what you want or expect, Ha Ha...

[sentient]

A great number of people who go through near death or clinical death situation do not have NDEs.
This suggests to me that these experiences with their insights are ‘karmic’.

“Are NDEs real”

I found this interesting & the talk starts at 4:44:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KhtRnbl8ZE&ab_channel=UVAEngagement

Thank you eezi-ulgen again for your previous post - any comments about the video you would like to add?

[eezi-ulgen]

Thank you eezi-ulgen again for your previous post - any comments about the video you would like to add?

The vid. stands on it's own, all of it sounds like stuff I have heard before and seems straight forward...
^
Here's a little page/article about Sami Sky knowledge...
https://www.beneathnorthernlights.com/the-starry-sky-in-sapmi/

...Peace...

[sentient]

Golden Light / White Light / Clear Light

A sketch to be taken with grains of salt and open questioning …

The vid. stands on it's own, all of it sounds like stuff I have heard before and seems straight forward...

I only discovered these NDE videos relatively recently, so I’m thinking; “this is the greatest thing since sliced bread”, because be it “a shamanic-death-experience” or NDE, we have gone through a very similar thing …
And then I got stuck in this Golden Light, White Light, Clear Light thing … what is the difference?

Had a brief look on the YouTube about “shamanic death” and OMG what is this utter nonsense … drugs, insanity, mental breakdowns, hallucinations, fantasy realms/journeys, ego trips – all labelled as “shamanic”.

The Golden Light seems to be when we awaken spiritually to the truth that “we are all one”, which is the Totality, the “I AM” experience, the unconditional love - one might say.

I was not awakened by the Golden Light (like many NDE experiencers or perhaps the friend from my youth, who showed me his death) – instead I was first alerted by ‘other dimensional’ sound of thunder and as I followed the sound, the church bells opposite where I lived started ringing as they usually did at that time of the night, but this time it was like the 2 worlds coming together the physical world and the ‘Source’ & quoting somebody who had said: there was no bell and I – only “ringing”.
https://i.ibb.co/bv39S5F/The-Bells-Klokkerne.png

In that “I AM” state, there was not an atom in the blade of grass in whole Universes where “I” could have hidden from that sound.
(Much later I learned what Zen says about Satori experience: “When the mind is ready, a bell rings, and you at once return to your original home; that is, you discover your now real self”.)
I guess, the “original home” is the “Totality-I AM” – state.

*

White Light … seems to be in the ballpark of “Bindu”, the 8th chakra on the back of the head which opens up to the Causal Realm ….
https://www.instagram.com/p/CzJXkBELWED/

Besides really taking liking to this person, because of his normalcy and level headedness: “Surgeon Struck by Lightning - Discovers the God Energy” (the video I posted before):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCV7ayCLA1A&ab_channel=ComingHome

Had this man narrated his story to Tengrist Mongolians or Asian/Siberian Turks about being struck by lightning and surviving it, is (I believe) thought to be a shamanic omen. The White Light - a second shamanic omen. In addition to this, when he then tells, that he had had a thought of needing a piano and the next day piano appears - a third omen.

Buddhists talk about 3 levels of transmission.
The second level:
The second style of communicating, or teaching, is the rigdzin da-gyii. This is the method of crazy wisdom, but on the relative level, not the absolute level. Here you communicate by creating incidents that seem to happen by themselves.
Such incidents are seemingly blameless, but they do have an instigator somewhere. In other words, the guru tunes himself into the cosmic energy, or whatever you would like to call it. Then if there is a need to create xyz, he directs his attention toward cosmic energy, and quite appropriately, Xyz presents itself, as if it happened by accident or mistake.

This imo. is entering the “Shamanic Zone”.

Clear Light. I read somewhere that for Buddhists Clear means Emptiness and Light means Awareness.

As I mentioned earlier, I have only seen/witnessed 2 people brightly radiating this Light. Both were/are aboriginal.

When you are taught in the aboriginal/indigenous way, you don’t necessarily even speak to/with your teacher. You are just drawn to watch/witness what your teacher is doing and the teacher too knows very well to whom they are ‘performing’ without any verbal lessons whatsoever.
I wonder if this is like the “light tent ceremony”? … where one becomes transfixed by the shamans actions?
Is this in the same ballpark?

Well, however, the second person I saw with this - like Clear Light, was when I was sitting on a bus-stop and all of a sudden everything (my surroundings) went black and white as into the shadows and then this aboriginal lady, around 60 walked past radiating this incredible light. I could tell she was a ‘dingo (wild dog) totemic’ because of the ‘key’ she vibrated in … but talk about ‘being in this world, but no longer of it’ … she was so detached she made my head spin and I felt I wasn’t ready.
Golden Light is more *felt* love of the Spirit within the Whole Creation …. but this was impersonal …
Besides, was she the same lady I had seen wannish into the thin air – sometime earlier?
(I had been told her name, as she did this act for people in the town of Alice to witness).
That was a bit too much!
This photo image by Emmanuel Santos kinda illustrates it:
https://i.ibb.co/5YvCryn/Screenshot-2024-03-31-045605.png

But the person sitting next to me on the bus-stop did not see it …. !
Like once when there was me, the Elder and another person – when what I call (the other dimensional) thunder sounded – the third person did not hear it …
Curious.

[sentient]

Here's a little page/article about Sami Sky knowledge...
https://www.beneathnorthernlights.com/the-starry-sky-in-sapmi/
Yeah, I think that reindeer used to have 6 legs before, but nowadays 2 stars are missing from the sky (?)
Karelian Kalevala hunting scene is the Moose, here a modern version:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MYPxhFoJWDB4KmCPAkyNlSP6aNdO38n3_IO5VUyW8c6EFKhLt7 6Wy_Xm_XdiE7OBVwSeW9OuYvZjHwWCi-bFbfyYgjwgPPdaZ0TNBvzDslb6Q6n3oX4kS9_qGANZKKrlKdHj istAXhw4YqKQ2pXgD49cC4Wy6eXc1Xlwm2FN_Q

More on the subject:
https://www.cosmicelk.net/greatbear.htm

[eezi-ulgen]

I only discovered these NDE videos relatively recently, so I’m thinking; “this is the greatest thing since sliced bread”, because be it “a shamanic-death-experience” or NDE, we have gone through a very similar thing …

Here is a little snippet from the people that study NDE's... International association for Near death Studies or IANDS...

"Can an NDE be induced through meditation, shamanic drumming, yoga or other spiritual practices?

"Near-death experiences occur by definition “near-death,” although as mentioned earlier, NDEs belong to a larger family of mystical or transpersonal experiences that transcend the usual limits of space and/or time and have the potential to be spiritually transformative. Practices such as meditation, shamanic drumming and yoga can trigger a variety of mystical experiences that appear identical to NDEs even though the experiencer is not physically close to death."

The above comes from Here:https://iands.org/ndes/about-ndes/key-nde-facts21.html?start=3

That is their main website and they are the biggest researchers that I know of...

Also here is their Youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/@IANDSvideos

I realize your post has a lot in it and it is hard to separate this stuff out, since everything is connected and many areas overlap and bleed into each other and there are so many variables...It's hard to say this is this and that is that...If you you know what I mean ?
I wish I had better writing skills and words to explain things but my writing skills and vocabulary are limited...But oh well they are what they are, I still bang away at the keyboard though...LOL...

As far as looking up "shamanic death" on Youtube, I would say that there is a big business around shamanism or at least what they perceive to be shamanism and they call everything shamanism and are really selling all manner of nonsense for clicks and views and whatnot...IMHO...

Some of the NDE stuff is getting pretty far out there too, people are starting to make a buck off it...So tread lightly and let your spidy senses guide you...LOL...
You seem to be good at reading energy though...:icon_rendeer:

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

Clear Light. I read somewhere that for Buddhists Clear means Emptiness and Light means Awareness.


Buddist language trips me up many times...
I have struggled understanding the terms, though after delving into some
of Buddhist teachings written in plain language I am starting to see many benifits..
I am wondering if this clear Light is like someone operating in the Now with their self created person-hood dissolved...
Also with great expansiveness of consciousness and awareness...
While understanding anatta (Not-self)...

Or maybe something like this story AI and I came up with...

Sitting by the lake, Zhin frowned. "Master," he sighed, "what is this Clear Light everyone keeps talking about?"

Master Wu, old and wise, opened one eye. "Look at the water, Zhin."

Zhin peered in. Ripples, murky green. "It's just dirty water, Master."

Wu chuckled. "Now look again."

Zhin blinked. The water was clear, reflecting the sky perfectly. A fish darted through.

"What happened?" Zhin gasped.

Wu smiled. "The mud settled. The Clear Light was there all along, Zhin. You just had to let it be."

...Peace...

[sentient]

"Can an NDE be induced through meditation, shamanic drumming, yoga or other spiritual practices?"

Yes eezi-ulgen let us remember “Spidey” - an age old tested and proven method one can use to ascend.
The “Spider Mother” who weaved the world so that through its web we have a sentient connection to everything that is.
The Spider Mother who isn’t the Creator of Earth as such (like creation stories of the Earth Divers were or the birth from the Cosmic Egg), but (as I understand it) she weaved a kind of a ladder, a way, means, a bridge, a scaffolding of 7 levels between the Earth and the Sky/Heaven/Central Sun.
The Spider who gives us the “Golden Thread back to the Source”, to the "Central Sun" through our sentience. Remembering, that in 'cobwebby situations', the Spider is both the liberator and the trickster.
The Spider Mother who has 8 legs, hence all the old sacred buildings were/are 8 cornered, i.e. we have 8 directions (also 8 cornered drums).
https://objet.art/api/file/Exhibits/650b2ad71854c34fdb51bf0e/public/_previewImg/original.jpg?width=1200

Now is that the Spidey in this Permian rock-painting, the sun & the moon (in balance) and the 7 levels (or ‘lightnings’ that can strike, NDE-like initiations) .. and the 3 finger salute to remind us of our situation sandwiched between the Absolute and Relative (?)
https://i.ibb.co/PM6Ts4d/Spidey.jpg

“Every life situation as a path” to that Golden Light - “Central Sun”, Spidey the trickster leading us with her Golden Tread found in cobwebby situations like Ariadne's thread out of the labyrinth.
Besides, how else does one build up or lose “Hiimori”, (personal power)!?

Moon doesn’t have a light of its own, but it is the purest reflection of the Sun.
Personal psychic power can be good or bad, but those purest (Central Sun) acts/reflections are ‘stored’ in the Causal Realm (Moon) from where I thought the Horse of White Light originally came from.
They talk about unicorns in relation to the causal chakra – never seen a blooming unicorn, only the White Horse – the Angel for Mongols and Turks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFTNWNgP-gk&ab_channel=HotZetiGer

Not a matter of belief in this and that but questioning this and that …

Enjoyed his story-telling but:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLbsul9Pm4&ab_channel=TheosophicalSociety

[sentient]

eezi-ulgen post no. 104

Just lovely!

[eezi-ulgen]

Yes eezi-ulgen let us remember “Spidey” - an age old tested and proven method one can use to ascend.
[I]The “Spider Mother” who weaved the world so that through its web we have a sentient connection to everything that is.


Exactly!
I'm glad your catching the pattern I'm weaving...LOL...

It thrilled me to see that Permian style brass piece again...
https://objet.art/api/file/Exhibits/650b2ad71854c34fdb51bf0e/public/_previewImg/original.jpg?width=1200
It is amongst my favorites...

That is a interesting three finger salute...Which maybe similar to Vesica Piscis...So there is this (1) that (2) and the other thing (3)...
https://symbolscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/SymbolScholar-Feature-Images-130-1024x683.jpg

Hiimori, no doubt...
I had seen both of those vids on Hiimori awhile back but it was nice to go through them again...
Love the Mongol dude, he takes the time to pull out a white board and give you the low down on meanings and words...

...Peace...

[sentient]

Or maybe something like this story AI and I came up with...


Ha! Found it! (The ‘answering image' to what you wrote).
The art of being a “hollow bone”, a zero point …. (keeping one’s NDE or “shamanic death” in a mint condition:

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1612306551.7514/ur,mounted_print_wood_portrait_medium_front,square ,600x600.1.jpg

[sentient]

That is a interesting three finger salute...Which maybe similar to Vesica Piscis...So there is this (1) that (2) and the other thing (3)...
https://symbolscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/SymbolScholar-Feature-Images-130-1024x683.jpg

Yes, maybe ... (?)
The other thingy being the unknown third element, the union of the 2?

https://www.geometrycode.com/sacred-geometry/#:~:text=The%20Vesica%20Piscis%20is%20formed,itsel f%20is%20a%20Vesica%20Piscis.
The Vesica Piscis is formed by the intersection of two circles or spheres whose centers exactly touch. This symbolic intersection represents the “common ground”, “shared vision” or “mutual understanding” between equal individuals. The shape of the human eye itself is a Vesica Piscis. The spiritual significance of “seeing eye to eye” to the “mirror of the soul” was highly regarded by numerous Renaissance artists who used this form extensively in art and architecture. The ratio of the axes of the form is the square root of 3, which alludes to the deepest nature of the triune which cannot be adequately expressed by rational language alone.

Some equate “Clear Light” with transparency, and I think it is in the same ballpark, but I would associate transparency with Nonduality rather & Nonduality with Vesica Piscis because experiencing nonduality with someone/something is to become totally transparent to one another & this is also what ND-Experiencers often report.

Had posted this before:

'Soul-level-connectedness', "Oneness" .... or "One Spirit" experience.

Ever had a situation, when you have looked into the eyes of another, and seen y-o-u-r-s-e-l-f .... looking back .... at yourself ....in the f-o-r-m- of another person; - thus instantly recognizing your very own most innermost soul & spirit essence standing there ...... in the other person's form?

When that happens, there is a sense of a silent communication dawning upon you both, like a "Holy Spirit". You know each other's innermost, without a word needed to be spoken about it, a state of such "obviousity" (things being too obvious and too intimate to talk about) ... that you do not want to "name" the situation but just live the enchantment of it.

In that, there is a sense of unconditional love, that just "IS"; - unconditional love, that is given and received without there really being a giver nor a receiver of it.
A sense that .... just because we exist, we are valid in this Universe, no other "credentials" needed.
ND-Experience also.

When you feel this "oneness" with someone, it is like .... since eternity, you have never been apart, nor shall you ever be. Oneness cannot be gained or achieved nor can it be possessed but Oneness is there for all times for us to recognize it.

Also, in that "oneness" there is a sense of a "Cosmic Joke" about separateness and appearances, because for oneness .... all that form separateness .... really is .... just a joke.

But then again when you feel/experience that boundary-less "oneness" with another person, within that "boundarylessness", you do draw a "taboo boundary" of respect. Respect of the other persons physiological and psychological difference to you, and the free and independent will of the other person. Thus making boundaryless oneness sacred, but also the form reality ...sacred.

In "oneness" you do realize your multidimensionality.
The "boundaryless oneness" is a spatial dimension, existing within its own "boundary" of laws and non-dual conditions, and the "form reality" existing within its own set of boundaries of dual rules.

Experiencing oneness with someone, enlarged .... is to experience the Collective Oneness .... i.e. "One Spirit" with a tribe ... or a group.
From there it is just a hop, skip and jump to experience the "Oneness of A-l-l Phenomena" or what has been called the "I AM" .... state, or "Cosmic Consciousness" or "Unity Consciousness" or the “Unified Field”.

*

One can turn Vesica Piscis image vertical as well. Absolute and Relative – and if we become empty, go still and silent listening to those 2 polarities simultaneously within our inner sounding board – where is that sounding-board within our being?
When we do become an empty zero point, that “I” (in the middle section of Vesica Pisces) seems to turn into an ‘Eye of direct knowing/seeing’ which in turn starts to see the “Clear Light”.
But now we are no longer talking about the nondual 3rd point, but the mysterious 5th point (like a cross).

[sentient]

Hiimori, no doubt...

Hiimori is a Mongolian word, the equivalent in Asian/Siberian Turkic I trust is “Tulpar”:
https://haleycollins.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/IMG_1453-scaled.jpg

In Finno-Ugric mythology Shaman’s most usual ‘animal-spirit-helpers’ were the ginormous Eagle, a Horse of/from Hiisi (Hiisi often meaning ‘the spirit of a place’, a place of Hiisi – a ‘power place’), but here the “Hii” word may or may not be a coincidence. … and thirdly to add a Shaman’s helper the ‘black dog’.
So, one doesn’t have to switch from Uralic shamanism to Altaic tengrism and go all the way to Mongolia to find the same or similar symbolism. However, among the Mongols and Turks, this imagery is still very much ‘alive’ in the collective subconscious.
Western Saami – I don’t know …?
Seems like for so many centuries they had been cut off from Siberian influences.
There is the “White Reindeer”, but I thought it was more like a good omen for the reindeer herders – like the “White Buffalo Calf” is for Amerinds.

[sentient]

Ruohtta, also known as Rota, was the Sami demon of pestilence and evil.
Ruohtta resided in a realm named Rotaimo, and rode across the land with a horse, spreading pestilence and death to the people. The Sami would keep the demon away by either pray to their sky deity Radien or by sacrificing a horse. Actually, this was not a sacrifice to the demon, but rather a sacred rite, which would transfer the disease from the human to the dead horse.

Rota (Ruto), the demon of death and disease, riding to the realm of death Reuterskiöld and other earlier scholars propose that the prototype for Rota was Odin, who also is connected with the land of the dead.
https://www.thuleia.com/rota.jpg

Above pic from Shaman´s drum symbols in Scandinavia:
https://www.thuleia.com/shamandrum.html

Needless to say the Horse isn’t one of the “power animals” or animal-spirit-helpers at least for the Norwegian Saami.…

[sentient]

I would like to think there were no horse sacrifices, but throughout Eurasia (among Uralics and Altaians) horses were sacrificed. “This ritual was performed because it was believed that a sacrificed horse can carry the shaman to Heaven”.
In areas where there were no horses in Siberia, I trust reindeer was also sacrificed for the same reason.

Here a Turkic-Tengrism drum, with the Horse sacrifice:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/04/1f/ff041f9d6d38963396427db6b26eb420.jpg

For the Western Saami, (at least) “the horse was a feared and detested animal, probably because it was the preferred form of transportation of the Norsemen”.
“When Saami were converted to Catholicism and later on to Lutheranism, the concept of Rotaimo, a place similar to Christian Hell and Radienaimo, a place closer to the Christian idea of Heaven was created”.
Apparently.
(A bit like what happened to our Hiisi. Originally meaning sacred localities and their spirits but with the arrival of Lutheranism they now became the places of demons).

See also “The great Indo-European horse sacrifice” (whatever that meant?)

In the East, we at least had contacts with Dolgans (who are a mix of (Tungus) Evenk people and (Yakutians) Sakha. This shows up in some shared words and also some more recent Siberian dna (which Western Saami perhaps do not have?)
Dolgans are Turkic.
Curious also, where both of my Saami/Karelian admixed grandparents came from (now Russia), they had sacred stones, which were carved in images similar to Tengrist drums:
https://i.ibb.co/B2Q79Pc/kivi1.png
https://i.ibb.co/gr8dyb9/kivi2.png

Sakha Celestials:
Yuryung Aiyy Toyon
Uluu Toyon (the Sun)
Yuryung Aiyy = (the Moon) Toyon = (head/leader)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFyH5i2P24k&ab_channel=BolotBochkarev

Shamanistic Ritual in Old Turks (very similar to Mongolian ones):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=camcW9Vczlg&ab_channel=O%C4%9FuzhanKo%C3%A7

So, looks like for Norwegian Saami there are no totemic animal ancestors to speak of as such and in “Heaven”, no wolves nor horses, but now I’d be really curious to know if Forest and Skolt Saami differ in the horse issue.

Saami worldview:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Our-reconstruction-of-the-ancient-Sami-world-view-based-on-various-sources-Mulk_fig4_271068683

ProtoUralic world-view:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-ProtoUralic-world-view-according-to-Napolskikh-1992_fig8_271068683

[sentient]

Learning something every day.

To a summary and a conclusion …
Relatively recently I learned about the NDE-videos, and was positively surprised how many of them relate to the shamanic way of experiencing multidimensionality.
Even more recently I learned that I am related (although more distantly) to most of the old Saami families from Kautokeino, Norway.
Looked into their 'now' a bit deeper and I guess I hadn’t accounted for all the influences they have had over there, much more so than in the East.
Old Norse (Indo-European) paganism & all that Viking ‘stuff’, Catholic Christianization, Lutheranism and its witch hunts, the Swedish eugenics plan studies, its forced sterilizations etc. the government assimilation plans, children being taken away to boarding schools etc. etc. the list goes on.

Even though many a Saami there has twice as much “Siberian” as I do, it is mostly from ancient connections, this old stuff, which no longer registers in people’s minds & how could it:
https://phys.org/news/2018-11-ancient-dna-smi-finns-identical.html

But the latest influence - the American New Age Harner neo-shamanism!
Seeing yet a few more Harner videos, I now trust he really did have the best intentions, was altruist in his aim to revive ‘shamanism’ (as he understood it), but ‘drumming journeying’ is no NDE, nor is it being called by Spirit “shamanic death experience” - it relates, but cannot really be compared.

I suppose I have no right to feel disappointed, even betrayed, but I do a bit.

Might have some good links:
https://www.nativeamericanembassy.net/Shamanism/Web-Reaped/www.tengerism.org/berik_becoming_a_shaman.html

Then again – everything is as it should be.
No point in trying to enter or fit into the ‘shamanic/tengrist twilight-zone’ if it no longer exists in the subconscious or collective subconscious. – If there are no ‘living’ ancestral connections to Siberia anymore because as such it would be more fake than Harner’s “Core Shamanism”. At least "journeying" will teach one something about the workings of one’s subconscious. Although shamanic reality orientation is not the same as Western reality orientation – the “core’ is different.

If I remember correctly Ailu had been in contact with Mongolian Shamaness Sarangerel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myVHFeyWWM0&ab_channel=forgottenmusic1

R.I.P.
As an ‘influencer’, Ailu did good!

[eezi-ulgen]

But the latest influence - the American New Age Harner neo-shamanism!Seeing yet a few more Harner videos, I now trust he really did have the best intentions, was altruist in his aim to revive ‘shamanism’ (as he understood it), but ‘drumming journeying’ is no NDE, nor is it being called by Spirit “shamanic death experience” - it relates, but cannot really be compared.

Relates, yes Methinks so...Overlaps in some areas...Methinks the Spirit world is vast and layered like a 3 layered cake (Norse is 9 layers Methinks) and there is bound to be overlap...Though I don't know shaman...I have had many journeys of varying degrees of penetration into Spirit and the Spirit world, none by buying a ticket and traveling into the Spirit world or should I say by intent...Most en-trances into Spirit have been by happen stance or should I say SURPRISE!!!What the??...Unless I was in Peyote ceremony or mushroom ceremony, then I knew I was traveling into parts unknown and packed a few provisions...Though Methinks much happens in the vesica piscis zone between our world and the world of Spirit...In the zone that the Christians call the fish or others call the eye...

Nice vid. of Ailu and Sami ski doo...We had one back in the 70s...Good times...

...Peace...

[sentient]

I have had many journeys of varying degrees of penetration into Spirit and the Spirit world, none by buying a ticket
Yep, funny innit …. quite absurd really … lol.

traveling into the Spirit world or should I say by intent...
Must say, after the past-life-hypno session, I did journey with intent, to piece together more snippets from that “past life” I had seen - if that is what it was.
However now imagining I was a spidey (to illustrate); - a couple of those ancestral strands - when felt or sensed with awareness on the (ancestry) web (or call it now a psychic grid or net) did yield spontaneous visions of places I had never seen (yet verified by looking them up on the net) and in addition, the Siberian one even delivered a live message through its ‘psychic airways’.
Yet my Western Finnish ancestral strand is/was like a dead horse, it yielded nothing but a blank wall and even though I had travelled to Finnmark, Norway & later saw the odd Saami cousin here and there on relatives list, but since nothing came through (other dimensionally) … I never bothered to look into it further. Even now, I have to learn about these relatives from books and videos – because nothing speaks from within as if that connection had been cut.
Curious.

I guess that applies to Amerinds as well. Just because one discovers that one actually had an Amerind or an Aboriginal ancestor (for that matter), that doesn’t guarantee a live connection still to be there to draw from.
But having Aboriginal visions before one learns about one’s hidden yet actual Aboriginal ancestry – that is the exciting part.

*

Last week found another Saami DVD from the shops:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiFsEQ_WvQ&ab_channel=PalaceFilms

Alta dam protests talk:
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/latenightlive/the-sami-s-fight-to-stop-a-dam-and-save-their-heritage/102642296

[sentient]

Besides “Kautokeino Rebellion”
(a film, which made me so very depressed) ….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_3OPfBNQIs&ab_channel=OCB2Slim

The third DVD I’ve got is “Saami Blood”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y3xkshhwLM&ab_channel=MadmanFilms
This film in turn made me so very angry I haven’t been able to watch it again for the longest time.
Not that I got so angry at the forced assimilation policies, but at her, the main character's response to it.
She just became a pathetic mess, so conflicted she couldn’t find her functionality in neither worlds.

Similar – in some ways – what happened to this bloke’s mother 12:37 > 18:40 in the video you eezi-ulgen posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxusCVa54Hs&ab_channel=ShamansDirectory

We all know this, seen enough of it, have felt it within ourselves (which is why I guess I got so angry).
But here Elders to the rescue – who can by example, by their impeccability in-the-eyes-of-Spirit show how to juggle the two worlds yet retaining the original spirituality, – and not just retain, but make all of our spirits shine!

But I guess – not everyone had the good fortune of meeting them.

... Which is why I absolutely loved “Uncle Bob”.
One look into his eyes and you automatically *shifted* into that unconditional, all inclusive “Oneness Space”.
I’m sure I have posted this link before if not several times already:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zAh3irMYo&ab_channel=GlobalOnenessProject

The same *shift* my grandmother also 'taught'.

[sentient]

Came across this image from a genetic study which shows our Saami, Uralic & Siberian relatedness:
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-018-1522-1/MediaObjects/13059_2018_1522_Fig4_HTML.png?as=webp

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-018-1522-1/MediaObjects/13059_2018_1522_Fig4_HTML.png

How come I hadn’t seen this study before, perhaps when the paper came out it wasn’t free for viewing (?)
The genetic study:
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1522-1

[eezi-ulgen]

Not that I got so angry at the forced assimilation policies, but at her, the main character's response to it.
She just became a pathetic mess, so conflicted she couldn’t find her functionality in neither worlds.

I can't seem to function well in this world of so called civilization...
There seems to be no place in it that I seem to fit or belong 100%...
The more I delve or experience the Spirit world the more messed up I get...
I do find comfort in becoming a zero in natures flow, which is the only place I can make sense of things...
Maybe she just didn't know how to feel alright and secure no matter where she was...
Which is sad, but I know how that feels at times...

When I was ignorant of Life and Spirit and lived only by a code of violence that I was brought up in, I was
happy as a clam because at least I had a code or direction, even if it was a destructive force, acting or reacting purely out of ego
and subconscious reflex was all I knew, a pure fight or flight way of Life, always waiting on guard for the unexpected to hit the fan...
It's not easy finding Peace within ones self...It can be a long road from victim-hood to survivor-hood to thriver-hood...
Then throw in Spiritual guides pushing you into a new sense of Being and things can get overwhelmingly muddled but revealing a sense of direction
toward True Peace and Love and Joy or at times questioning ones own sanity...It can all be a bit much at times...
It becomes easier now that I have a Life to look back on and can see those Spirit guided path corrections...
But when your going through the hurdles and obstacles it's like drowning in a foot of water not knowing you can just stand up...

Alright I seem to be rambling, and I didn't know how to respond to these difficult topics so I'll just leave it at that...

...Peace...

[sentient]

I can't seem to function well in this world of so called civilization...
There seems to be no place in it that I seem to fit or belong 100%...

Yeah, well, it gets messy and I was getting all tangled up here in my mind thinking about it all …
The ‘lost soul syndrome’ in the world of so-called civilization … I used to feel it too and sometimes becoming so conflicted was driving me up the wall … just getting so angry at life/ways others around me thought was normal, when it for me was at times ‘surreal’ and incomprehensible.

There is a Finnish Saami bloke I sometimes meet in town. He had/has such social anxiety - he like I - both ‘escaped’ our respective psychological ‘misfitism’ by integrating into a ‘First Nations’ group.
And yes, with the NDE or ‘shamanic death’ one experiences our spiritual HOME.
But in this world integrating into that ‘tribe’ was “homecoming” to me.
So, I guess you and I have been in a similar ‘boat’.

Was thinking about it yesterday and how I really should take the train and visit them, pay my respects. Then coming home from the shops, there were a lot of workmen around our housing and I bumped into one of them finishing his work, so of course you say hello and how is it going ... which led to us having quite a long conversation.
A First Nations guy.
I’m still feeling the ‘after-effects’ of our encounter & I cannot really explain the difference, but once again, I was reminded how artificial we normally are in our 'civilized world' social interactions …

Neither of us had any colour/race barrier, we were just naturally psychologically totally open to one another, naturally trusting, sharing and caring.
Yet I didn’t have to act polite; I didn’t need to be open; I didn’t need to be caring …. all of that was already given - already sorted - naturally present like air.
I mean - one cannot congratulate one’s self about one’s mental openness, if it already is an unconditionally open situation where that “openness” isn’t “mine”.

However, turned out his family ‘belonged’ to the same group I had integrated/assimilated into, only they had moved away quite some time before I moved there.
Funny dat. One minute I was thinking about really needing to meet them and the next minute I bumped into one of them.
Good timing, and that “timing” wasn’t “mine” either.
Although yesterday I was delayed and went to do my weekly shopping later than I normally do and had (‘sniffing the air’) wondered if there was any significance to that delay.

Well – Spirit always works with “Swiss-Clock” accuracy.

[sentient]

eezi-ulgen,
When I integrated into the First Nations ‘tribe’ in Oz, there was no Elder within that ‘tribe’ who would have had the heart to say I wasn’t a member of it. And that is for life - people who know me still regard me as their relative.
The same with you I imagine. That doesn’t make you an Amerind, nor does that make me an Oz-Aboriginal, no matter how much “in one spirit” I/we might feel.

Finding out that I am dna *cousins* to most of the old Kautokeino Saami families in Norway does not make me a Norwegian Saami either. But - now - if I went there and became an accepted, active member of that Saami community – with my dna to match, to prove – that would be a different story.
Yet with the dna testing, many now claim, identify themselves as Saami:
A Saami director, the creator, screenwriter of the film “Let the River Flow”:
https://www.thewire.org.au/story/indigenous-sami-fight-for-the-river/

I am not totally convinced 'they' (the fully Norwegian assimilated Saami admixed) speak from the authentic indigenous perspective.
Environmental work doesn’t equate indigenous identity nor does political opposition activism, but for a lot of “New Identifiers” - those distantly related, well assimilated into Western mode of thinking urban warriors (who have lost their culture) – it does.

[sentient]

Australian Aboriginals lose ‘colour’ really fast, so the colour of a person’s skin is no indication of that person’s indigenous identity claim.
https://new-cdn.mamamia.com.au/mamamia-pwa.appspot.com/cms_images%2Fvariations%2F372671-large_custom_1593500753052.jpeg?width=656

Here the actress (playing "Mary") is half Finnish half Aboriginal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwzDjqvHQzs&ab_channel=ABCiview

But never in a million years did I think it possible that “whites” would fake being Australian Aborigines or of Aboriginal descend. That sort of thing could only happen in America I thought - but no, it is happening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLSI_6_Hgig&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia

[sentient]

Came across this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWd8ASbXX88&ab_channel=Decimali

Well, since Myheritage does not have Saami source population, Finns are the closest match for them and of course all Finns are Saami admixed, some only little, some much more.

But what I found very interesting was this comment by “barguttobed”:
Took from wikipedia
Since the term 'Ancient North Eurasian' refers to a genetic bridge of connected mating networks, scholars of comparative mythology have argued that they probably shared myths and beliefs that could be reconstructed via the comparison of stories attested within cultures that were not in contact for millennia and stretched from the Pontic–Caspian steppe to the American continent.

*

For instance, the mytheme of the dog guarding the Otherworld possibly stems from an older Ancient North Eurasian belief, as suggested by similar motifs found in Indo-European, Native American and Siberian mythology. In Siouan, Algonquian, Iroquoian, and in Central and South American beliefs, a fierce guard dog was located in the Milky Way, perceived as the path of souls in the afterlife, and getting past it was a test. The Siberian Chukchi and Tungus believed in a guardian-of-the-afterlife dog and a spirit dog that would absorb the dead man's soul and act as a guide in the afterlife. In Indo-European myths, the figure of the dog is embodied by Cerberus, Sarvarā, and Garmr. In Zoroastrianism, two four-eyed dogs guard the bridge to the afterlife called Chinvat Bridge. Anthony and Brown note that it might be one of the oldest mythemes recoverable through comparative mythology.

Which brings me to this picture about the Proto-Uralic-worldview, I had posted previously, where that dog is:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-ProtoUralic-world-view-according-to-Napolskikh-1992_fig8_271068683

Only the sketch above doesn’t give the sense, the hair-raising feeling of that kind of a situation happening.
This image depicts “getting past the test” better:
https://i.ibb.co/qDnRdSC/alembic-1.jpg

But to put it into the Forest Saami landscape (where through spontaneous ‘distance viewing’ I saw a vision of it) … There is this special deep ravine in that landscape and that ‘blackness’ (like in NDEs … blackness that is the transition stage from one state of awareness to the next), with a point of light at the end of the ravine (not tunnel like in NDEs). And both sides of the ravine are these “ferocious dogs”. They are like embedded into the ravine cliffs (as if dogs of stone, asleep) and if one doesn’t have any fear going through that blackness, they will stay that way and let one pass & then the Light dawns.
Not an NDE, not actual death, but a shamanic initiation where one goes through the same kind of motions …
So, I thought that ravine in the landscape had perhaps been used for that purpose, as a portal & had the war between Russia and Ukraine not started, I would have made an effort to go there and see that ravine irl.

But what are the Siouan, Algonquian, Iroquoian, and in Central and South American beliefs about it?
Never heard of those.

[eezi-ulgen]

Not an NDE, not actual death, but a shamanic initiation where one goes through the same kind of motions …
But what are the Siouan, Algonquian, Iroquoian, and in Central and South American beliefs about it?


Well, it seems I don't really know much about the shamanic journey...Or do I ??
I do not know any shamanic practitioners in Life that has explained those things to me...
I do read some from people that claim to be shaman, though I can't make heads or tails if they are real shamanic practitioners or imagination travelers...
I get the sense that people talk on many different levels of dream,vision,subconscious burps,imagination,astral plain, other such dimensions...So it's all a bit confusing to me...
I guess time will tell...

I did try looking into the swan and the milky-way... I see that also in your jpeg..
I thought I read the swan was big medicine in the dying process and has something to do with a big lake in Siberia...

...Peace...

[sentient]

I did try looking into the swan and the milky-way... I see that also in your jpeg..
I thought I read the swan was big medicine in the dying process and has something to do with a big lake in Siberia...
Yeah, it is both in the Proto-Uralic and in the Saami world-view:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-ProtoUralic-world-view-according-to-Napolskikh-1992_fig8_271068683

But now let’s compare it to the Amerind “Mount Bulder’s” (?) view, where at least we can identify the “World Pole/Tree” and the “Thunderbirds” – but is that the “Dog” below???
https://i.ibb.co/d63xKv1/Native-American-World-Pole-Tree.png

Actually ours should be depicted that way as well (and not like a European 'fairytale' picture), because this is a more correct view, although not entirely, since it doesn't have the Lower World in it.
But I guess the previous Proto-Uralic image just demonstrates also how - when other people interpret 'your' culture, they distort it:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Suomalaisten_maailma.jpg

I copied that Amerind "Mount Builders" picture from one of the Andrew Collins related videos – which are really lengthy, but for those interested they are riveting watching/listening.
Cygnus constellation of the Milky Way 34:46 > 48:38 (our Ural area):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCs4QKa3alc&ab_channel=MegalithomaniaUK

Swans - those go back to The Mal'ta - Buret' culture:
https://donsmaps.com/malta.html

I get the sense that people talk on many different levels of dream,vision,subconscious burps,imagination,astral plain, other such dimensions...So it's all a bit confusing to me...
They are. Even NDEs leave a lot of room for interpretation. At times for a Christian (subconscious baggage) person the ‘blackness’ (transition stage) represents “Hell” & its demons, what have you - and the subsequent dawning of the Light is seen as Christ coming to save one into “Heaven”, because one is Christian. Not realizing that almost everybody goes through the same scenario from blackness into Light.

And these OBEs, visions, dreams, spontaneous trance journeys only seem to give glues – so, they give as many answers as they raise questions.
Here I would caution people though – to explore one’s own subconscious (baggage) & not some other culture’s subconscious ‘heritage’. I am unlikely to see for example a “platapus” as a guardian symbol into some other worlds …. unless I had actually been initiated or something into the “Platapus Totemic Dreaming” … (whatever that now might be???)
But people do idolize other culture’s spiritual heritage, especially Amerind – which I guess is what a Buddhist teacher called “spiritual materialism” - that somehow, if we transplant some other people’s spirituality into our heads, we then become “spiritual” – not realizing we are that already – everybody is - no matter who we are, indigenous or non.

But of course, through Ancient North Eurasian ANE-dna (heritage baggage), we do get some overlap with Amerinds (if that map link shows):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian#/media/File:Archaeogenetic_analysis_of_human_skin_pigment ation_in_Europe_(with_Asia_geographic_extension).p ng

[sentient]

From Kalevala, here the ‘shaman Väinämöinen’ is doing some ‘soul retrieval’, I assume - into the land of the dead.
The Swan is there and is that the “Black Dog” sitting on the bow of the boat in that River of the Lower World?

“Väinämöinen in Tuonela” by Joseph Alanen:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Joseph_Alanen_-_V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen_in_Tuonela.jpg

[sentient]

P.S.
The source for this image:
https://i.ibb.co/d63xKv1/Native-American-World-Pole-Tree.png

... was from 1:07:00 >:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZ8cgoqtsg&ab_channel=MegalithomaniaUK

Had I posted this before?

[sentient]

I did try looking into the swan and the milky-way... I see that also in your jpeg..
I thought I read the swan was big medicine in the dying process and has something to do with a big lake in Siberia...
For Buryats at Lake Baikal, Siberia, a swan is a totemic ancestor.
For Skolt Saami, Swan -the bringer of Light - is a Holy bird.

*

Although I am not convinced about all the claims Collins makes about the Denisovans, however this sounds true:
https://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/thecygnusmystery_cygnus.htm
Cygnus can be found in the centre of the Milky Way, universally seen in past ages as a road or river of stars used by the dead, or the shaman in a state of trance. In ancient cosmology the Milky Way was equated with the World Tree, around which curled a serpent and on top was a celestial bird. In shamanic tradition worldwide, this World Tree had to be ascended to reach the celestial abode, or sky-world, either via the Milky Way or the north-south meridian line. It was a realm accessed via a hole, door or gate at its most northerly point, and often this was seen as being located someone in the proximity of the cosmic axis, marked by the bird at the top of the tree, which we can safely identify as the Cygnus constellation.
Between c. 16,000-15,000 BC Deneb was Pole Star.
“For Finno Ugrics the water birds, especially swans symbolize the human souls. We may know this because these are still living mythologies employed as spiritual maps for contemporary shamans. The connection between swans and human souls is indisputable. The same birds are strongly associated with the world of the dead”.

In the old Karelian-Hunter-Gatherer graves swan wings were found, children for example had been wrapped in a swan wings.
That is the old belief.
Haven’t had any spontaneous journey visions of them.
However – in that ‘transition stage’ - ‘the river of total ‘blackness’ where the ferocious black ‘guard dogs’ are - the presence of the swan is not like a siren leading one’s soul astray but one that gives faith and serenity to trust the process and calmly cross that ‘black river’ into the Light.

I am not sure whether the Forest Saami has that ferocious dog guarding the underworld or did the vision project that old (collective subconscious) view into their ravine landscape (?)
Still, at the Karelian Lake Onega (swan cult) region of Russia where 42% of the rock carvings are of swans belonged to the pre-Saami/Karelians collectively, so it is a blurry cultural boundary:
https://i0.wp.com/www.terrain.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/roth_rockart1.jpg?w=540&ssl=1

However, according to the “Path of Souls: The Native American Death Journey” (which may or may not originate from the Ancient North Eurasian beliefs) … souls that successfully made the transition to the Path of Souls experienced adversary. The adversary is said to be located at the spot where the Milky Way splits into two sides or paths, which is the Dark Rift, the Dark River of the Milky Way. At the brightest star Deneb of the Cygnus Constellation this adversary aimed at scaring the soul was encountered and for some tribes it was a ferocious dog or dogs.
The final destination of souls was the North Pole star area or Ceneb/Swan, but “between c. 16,000-15,000 BC Deneb was Pole Star”.

There are also differences from where the soul is supposed to leave the body. Some Taoist say it is the 3rd eye, in some other beliefs it is the crown chakra area, for us I trust, it was/is the on top of the head but towards the back which attuned our soul’s direction to the Polaris, the Celestial North Star.

[sentient]

Now, I have got no problem accepting the Christian message, the Light as Christ Consciousness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK4TShXmkmw&ab_channel=AnandaSanghaWorldwide

… but if the realization of one’s True Self, the – “I AM THAT” – is recognizing that we too are that light, like “Wow! I’m a swan! – who would have thunk it!” - that is also good.
(Isn't the swan the symbol for nonduality also (?).

Guidance, through symbology shows us what we will personally be able to understand and on the level we can comprehend it.
Also, that symbology shows us ‘who we are’ (on the subconscious-cultural-baggage level) as somebody had said:
"We all have a song in us, it tells us who we are".

[eezi-ulgen]

Here I would caution people though – to explore one’s own subconscious (baggage) & not some other culture’s subconscious ‘heritage’. I am unlikely to see for example a “platapus” as a guardian symbol into some other worlds ….

Exactly...That is why I said it is hard for me to read people that say they have this Spirit animal our Spirit guide and went through such and such initiation...
Or maybe received a certificate for attending a weekend course in shamanism...
The interwebs are full of what brings up suspicion in me...
Though I usually don't like calling people out about anything...
This also is why I have no idea what a shamans journey really is...
SomE I think they had a dream or a vivid imagination or indigestion...IDK...
I really wouldn't care, but I do have the Asian DNA that makes me want to find some things out
but the interwebs is a hard place to sift through...
I realize the interwebs is not ideal for finding out things in a real way...
Experience is the real teacher...

...Peace...

[eezi-ulgen]

sentient
That's some real good stuff on the dog and the swan...(I have 3 stars and 3 swans on a family crest, Hmm??)
I wonder what the story is I am suppose to know by that??
The stars have been the story book for all people from all the way back to where they could first see the stars...

The void and the Light of Spirit, must also have so many stories to tell and pass down that knowledge too...

[sentient]

sentient
That's some real good stuff on the dog and the swan...
In the “Path of Souls: The Native American Death Journey”, the Mississippian Mound Builders had the Spider as well:
1. From a mound, Missouri.
2. From a stone-grave, Illinois.
3. From a mound, Illinois.
4. From a mound, Tennessee.
(The top one looks a bit like the “Central Sun”).
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/42564/42564-h/images/61.jpg

Quite similar to the Udmurt/Komi belief, where the Golden Spider Thread can - like balancing on a tightrope - lead you past the Dark Rift, the Dark River into the Light, into the “Central Sun” (of ‘Enlightment’), but get spooked & all tangled up, hesitate, lose your balance or walk back and the Spider net will get you. Game over, reincarnate and try again …

So, the Spider is both the adversary and/or the ‘liberator’, depending ….

The name for the ‘ancestor place/shelf’ for my ½ Forest Saami ½ ‘Karelian’ (but from Komi/Veps ancestry as well) … gran was an Udmurt word. So, the ‘song’ within her, which identified her by her ancestral beliefs was the ‘Permian’ “Spider Mother”.

P.S.
Found a shortened version of the “Path of Souls: The Native American Death Journey”
Spider from 14:30 to 15:00
…. But here the Spider is placed at the Orion (hand), the first part of the sky journey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c5pty3VKnM&ab_channel=atagreg1

[eezi-ulgen]

sentient

Okay,so here is an example of someone sharing their wisdom on how to do shamanic journey..

Shamanic journeying, I’ve learned, is simple. My steps are;
1. Establish the protected time and place
2. Set my intention
3. Open the space : I use something as simple as lighting a candle.
4. Set the boundaries of the space, inviting in the helpful energies ( whoever you work with; guides, deities, ancestors, spirits etc) and equally important also banish anything with negative intent.
5. Use my imagination to travel ( I usually find myself walking through a wood, getting to a shore and getting in a boat. I hold my intention/question in my mind but aim to maintain a neutral observing approach, I don’t “force” anything. Within the journey I usually have an offering in my pocket so I give that out when the time feels right.
6. Notice and interact with whoever turns up. Thank them.
7. Return to the place I started. Give thanks again and close the space
8. Write down all I can recall even if it doesn’t make sense entirely.

I don't like being negative but I sure hope this is not what my ancestors were doing...
This seems to be imagination work, which does have value but it is hard to understand
what people are talking about sometimes...Or should I say at what level they are talking from...
I understood shamans to work with actual Spirits and not just imagination...
I thought Spirit would actually posses the shaman to do the shaman work through various degrees of trance...
Alright I'll let this one go since I realize I am seeing things on the interwebs and probably not anything close to real traditional shamanism
and if I am to understand shamanism to any real degree I will have to meet one in person and go from there...

Oh, plus I do realize everyone is keen on using the word shaman for all kinds of things nowadays...
Another thing which I don't want to be missed is that, of course things can come through, but my imagination
can and will cook up all kinds of things that may not really be beneficial and may even be ego driven or subconscious garble...

...Peace...