serotonin

[RedEmbers]

So about 4 weeks ago I was at a 24 hour rave. I was stone cold sober (although quite tired :D ).
I was enjoying the drug crowd even though I was not actively participating in the drug side of things. Most of the participants were dancing high and happy and the energy and the music were all having a posative effect on me.
I danced most of the night until about 4am when my body was too physically exhausted to dance any more :redface:
I really enjoyed my experience during those 24 hours sober. I went home at sunrise and slept deeply and awoke refreshed and rejuvenated... that natural high lasted about 3 weeks :)

Ok, so that is the background to my story... now I would like to discuss serotonin and mindfulness. Plus serotonin and the various forms of temporary highs.

Is it possible (in your opinions) for natural highs to act in a similar nature to synthetic highs? What I mean is that I feelthat both are temporary... although a natural high, serotonin may be released at a sustainable pace... and so may be less intense but last longer.
Synthetic highs typically elevate serotonin levels remarkably for a short period of time but in the long term... deplete the supply of serotonin... taking a while for the body to catch up and replenish.
My 3 week high may not have been as remarkable as a syntheticly induced rush of serotonin but my state of being high has endured for alot longer.
Its effects are subsiding a little now... but logically I know what previously induced these feel good hormones and I think that I could fairly easily reproduce that.

When I look back on some parts of my life where I am most happy I seem to feel that I was in this almost eternal state of being naturally high... of course memory tends to see through rose coloured glasses so I was not in an eternal high.

An aquaintence of mine seriously depleted their serotonin levels for many months due to an over-relesase of serotonin induced synthetically.

I wonder if it is also possible for the same effects to occur naturally???... depleted supply due to overdoing typically "natural" things like meditation, prayer and excercise ect.

[RedEmbers]

As an added extra thought..
I sometimes think that due to our nature of chasing highs... that even meditation, excercise, eating is a means (or vehicle) to get that feeling of being temporarily "high".

We alter our chemistry subtly in so many ways every day in order to feel a certain way.
It can be viewed as a positive in that... we are always striving for life and experiences outside the mundane ( I view this as a vehicle for evolution)...

[naturesflow]

So about 4 weeks ago I was at a 24 hour rave. I was stone cold sober (although quite tired :D ).
I was enjoying the drug crowd even though I was not actively participating in the drug side of things. Most of the participants were dancing high and happy and the energy and the music were all having a posative effect on me.
I danced most of the night until about 4am when my body was too physically exausted to dance any more :redface:
I really enjoyed my experience during those 24 hours sober. I went home at sunrise and slept deeply and awoke refreshed and rejuvenated... that natural high lasted about 3 weeks :)

Ok, so that is the background to my story... now I would like to discuss serotonin and mindfulness. Plus serotonin and the various forms of temporary highs.

Is it possible (in your opinions) for natural highs to act in a similar nature to synthetic highs? What I mean is that I feelthat both are temporary... although a natural high, serotonin may be released at a sustainable pace... and so may be less intense but last longer.
Synthetic highs typically elevate serotonin levels remarkably for a short period of time but in the long term... deplete the supply of serotonin... taking a while for the body to catch up and replenish.
My 3 week high may not have been as remarkable as a syntheticly induced rush of serotonin but my state of being high has endured for alot longer.
Its effects are subsiding a little now... but logically I know what previously induced these feel good hormones and I think that I could fairly easily reproduce that.

When I look back on some parts of my life where I am most happy I seem to feel that I was in this almost eternal state of being naturally high... of course memory tends to see through rose coloured glasses so I was not in an eternal high.

An aquaintence of mine seriously depleted their serotonin levels for many months due to an over-relesase of serotonin induced synthetically.

I wonder if it is also possible for the same effects to occur naturally???... depleted supply due to overdoing typically "natural" things like meditation, prayer and excercise ect.

In answer to your first question.
Yes for sure.

I have learned that balance seeks itself even as I ride the highs naturally.

SO often when I am fully open and experiencing the rush and flow, in its own time that requires me to balance out in some way.

Sustaining the natural high is something I find now days is more in balance and easier to hold this way naturally.

[naturesflow]

As an added extra thought..
I sometimes think that due to our nature of chasing highs... that even meditation, excercise, eating is a means (or vehicle) to get that feeling of being temporarily "high".

We alter our chemistry subtly in so many ways every day in order to feel a certain way.
It can be viewed as a positive in that... we are always striving for life and experiences outside the mundane ( I view this as a vehicle for evolution)...
I don't chase the high more just open and let go of stuff blocking my balance. So it flows naturally for me in letting go deeper to the place where I can build it more as a lifestyle interacting with life and experiences more ongoing and more varied.

Of course certain situations can create a safe or comfort zone to open and let go more fully and definitely others can show you where you withhold and not open more fully. So these moments where we create them initially can show us potential of natural self being naturally connected and feeling content more often than not.

[RedEmbers]

Eheh... yes, pure happiness is a fairly current experience for me.

Alot of my close relationships are currently going through a 'balancing out' so to speak. A commitment to mindfulness has catalysed this. I must admit though that I am navigating a nee experience and savouring it while it lasts.
Going from the natural highs of childhood through the more tumultuous and synthetic highs as a young adult and back again to rediscover the natural highs of "mindfulness" is an interesting journey.

It is perhaps a question of acceptance.
There appears to be a bit of a hierarchy happening here:
The persuit of healing
The persuit of balance
The persuit of happiness.

Without that chasing of the new experience or 'high'... it seems as though we cannot evolve?

[RedEmbers]

I don't chase the high more just open and let go of stuff blocking my balance. So it flows naturally for me in letting go deeper to the place where I can build it more as a lifestyle interacting with life and experiences more ongoing and more varied.

Of course certain situations can create a safe or comfort zone to open and let go more fully and definitely others can show you where you withhold and not open more fully. So these moments where we create them initially can show us potential of natural self being naturally connected and feeling content more often than not.

You are indeed all about the natural flow... :)
Feelling content....
I feel as though I am simply starting to paraphrase you here haha.
(Thought form in progress).

[RedEmbers]

Catalyst on TV now: science-meditation special :icon_eek:
Must be a sign

[Shivani Devi]

Serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine do absolutely nothing for me.

However, give me GABA - Gamma Amino Butyric Acid or Inositol Choline or any of the Acetylcholine synaptic precursors and I'm tripping balls. Combine this with a simple tricyclic antidepressant and I'm orbiting Pluto.

I have Asperger's Disorder...I'm an Aspie big-time!

My brain wiring and neural pathways are far from neurotypical.....over the hills and far, far away...

Point in case, I am intimately familiar with my own neural biochemistry on an individual neuron level - being fully aware I have a glutamate malabsorption problem at the synaptic gate...

Try to find a sympathetic doctor who will listen to me without telling me that duloxetine is superior to gabapentin...doesn't know my brain chemistry whatsoever...*sigh*

[Shivani Devi]

Medicine and science should do a study of me....seriously!

[naturesflow]

Eheh... yes, pure happiness is a fairly current experience for me.

I am not sure but I often wonder in your poetry whether you have experienced some periods/ phases of depression. I apologize if this is not correct. So if you have and you are now moving more through the wave of happiness I am very happy for you.

Alot of my close relationships are currently going through a 'balancing out' so to speak. A commitment to mindfulness has catalysed this. I must admit though that I am navigating a nee experience and savouring it while it lasts.
Going from the natural highs of childhood through the more tumultuous and synthetic highs as a young adult and back again to rediscover the natural highs of "mindfulness" is an interesting journey.

This is awesome. And in many ways you are showing me how I perceive the turnaround from my own inner child's spontaneous and playful natural high into the conditioned world, where I lost my own inner delight and joy of being more open and free flowing. Then through my conscious path of opening up, I rediscovered it all over again, later in life. So coming full circle it is really noticeable in the transformation and noticing in all this..:smile:

It is perhaps a question of acceptance.
There appears to be a bit of a hierarchy happening here:
The persuit of healing
The persuit of balance
The persuit of happiness.

Without that chasing of the new experience or 'high'... it seems as though we cannot evolve?

I understand what you sharing. We seek out many things to find something for ourselves, so your probably right. Chasing or seeking, moving closer to be a part of something, does open us to find ourselves in all that. So naturally you begin to see yourself open and start to build more natural spontaneous connections flowing more readily from within. Certainly the freedom to let your hair down, let your guard down and let it all hang out, can activate the core of feeling more in tune, more alive, with everything less contained and more in flow.

[John32241]

When I look back on some parts of my life where I am most happy I seem to feel that I was in this almost eternal state of being naturally high... of course memory tends to see through rose coloured glasses so I was not in an eternal high.

An aquaintence of mine seriously depleted their serotonin levels for many months due to an over-relesase of serotonin induced synthetically.

I wonder if it is also possible for the same effects to occur naturally???... depleted supply due to overdoing typically "natural" things like meditation, prayer and excercise ect.

Hi,

Natural authentic happiness can be attained through the proper kind of mental effort. Creating that State of Mind which you want to have --- will make you happy. Your body will generate all the required chemicals, in perfect balance, to accommodate that energy of your intent.

Some day our culture will know that all disease comes from the mind. Well being is created in the same way. It is like constructing the appropriate kinds of beliefs, as I see these things.

John

[ianalexanderr]

The pineal gland (third eye) produces melatonin which is a serotonin derived hormone. Since serotonin is involved in pineal gland activity, I believe serotonin and the modification of it's production levels can be controlled via charging of the third eye chakra.

Every chakra we have is regulated by a charge/discharge function. Charge causes excitation of the associated endocrine gland, resulting in gland activity increasing. So if we want more production of good stuff involved with the pineal, we must charge it.

I believe charge for the third eye is a reward for "Self Awareness" when one is mindful of ones thoughts, movements, behaviors - exposing to the light of the conscious mind, what usually is knee jerk reaction, automatic, or unconscious. Minfulness practice I believe charges the third eye.

Sustained mindfulness, Self Awareness = Sustained high production of Serotonin and other related cognitive benefits (focus, memory, etc.)

wonder if it is also possible for the same effects to occur naturally???... depleted supply due to overdoing typically "natural" things like meditation, prayer and excercise ect.

OMG finally someone gets it. Yes it does occur naturally. Back to charge/discharge...Now if One invests more time in discharging the chakra this results in an energy deficit - the endocrine gland shuts down for a time, until it can build its charge past the deficit. It is wiser to spend more time charging, then only after building an excess, enjoy the bliss of discharge when you can energetically afford it.

One great example is in orgasm. Notice that the orgasm is most powerful after waiting a period of time? Now after several orgasms one after the other, the feeling is less intense or might hurt a little - this is because there is no longer any energy to discharge, you have spent it all. Same works for any chakra and especially the brain.

If you spend more time in trance/bliss/psychic abilities/visualization rather than anchoring your mind to the present via mindfulness and Self Awareness you will simply deplete your third eye of its energy. Ironic, if you invest too much time in trance/psychic states (basically losing yourself) you will in the end truly lose yourself, your mind. I do believe that it is possible to develop a deficit so strong that in time it could lead to dementia.

In conclusion: the third eye like any other chakra has a charge/discharge function. Charge results from Self-Awareness, discharge results from trance/unity/bliss induced states of consciousness.

[loopylucid]

I do believe that it is possible to develop a deficit so strong that in time it could lead to dementia.

Hi there ian, could you elaborate a little further on your thoughts here please :)

Loopy

[Clover]

Serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine

This is one very strong possibility ( still theory I think). The neurotransmitters that are released from the brain. I do intensive long distance running and I can tell you one thing, it is very much an euphoric and high-feeling experience, similarly to the emotions provoked from drug usage. Granted, running is greatly beneficial to your health, obviously. However, you would be surprised to know there is a "coming down" effect many of us runners experience that has the capability to bring out depression symptoms when we take breaks. It's not out of the ordinary for former drug addicts to have swapped their drug addiction for a running one. I see this a lot, particularly with marathon runners I run with. There's articles on it.




I think it's great you had a good time, Red. As long as it makes you happy and you maintain balance. I 'danced' all night for two nights in a row on memorial weekend.:smile: I never have more than a couple of beverages. Your elevated by the energy of the crowd, the environment, the music, the possible release of 'happy' chemicals.I take a few non formal dance classes a week so it was more exercise and familiarity of doing what I love.

Maybe take some dance classes or zumba in your area? The energy is nothing short of fun. You may discover you just simply have a passion for dancing :smile:

[Shivani Devi]

*tries to imagine Necro doing Zumba...or 'dancing' *shudders* - I have the true finesse of a geek.

I think Tai Chi is the closest we're ever going to get to that - I might find some classes somewhere.

Yeah, my internal 'reward system' is totally busted - has been for quite some time and that's why, when my shrink tells me "well, what do you want to do with your life?" I'm like "I dunno, you tell me!".

I've tried SSRI's and SNRI's but how can you inhibit the reuptake of a neurotransmitter that doesn't exist, right? They won't and don't work!

How the heck do I explain this to a doctor? maybe I should get a referral to go and see a neurologist instead of a psychologist...that may help...

After years of trying nearly every major anti-depressant out there, there is only one I have found works, helps me and without any side-effects...problem is, doctors will not prescribe tricyclics anymore because the whole drug class and that of MAOIs have been superceded entirely by new classes of drugs that do not work!

Hence the reason why I cannot go on any antidepressants - because my brain isn't neurotypical, yet doctors treat Necro like a 'normal person'...*sigh*

[RedEmbers]

Hi Necromancer. Your experience is interesting, thanks for sharing. It seems to maybe outline just how different we all can be on a chemical level and how subtle changes in our lives and environments can effect and alter our unique chemistry in such different ways.

[RedEmbers]

I was aware of the runners high... but had not heard anything of the low or crash which can also be experienced by long distance runners.
I suppose it does make sense though.

I a doing a little bit of reading about it and what system of chemicals cause it (thanks google).

NY Times: theorises that it could be caused by endocannaboid molecules. Apparently the body can create its own cannabinoids: endocanninoides... they reduce pain and anxiety and create a floaty feeling. had no idea about this :confused: lol.
Its all theoretical of course but interesting none the less.
Some of those journals state that some professional runners find it gets more difficult to achieve the runners high after some time.

By the way, I was riding my bike the other day and noticed a zumba class sign at the community centre on my way past... My daughter loves zumba (lol) maybe we could go along.
I used to get teased for my awkward dancing style in primary school... hopefully a class of grown adults will be a bit kinder :)

Thanks Clover

[RedEmbers]

Hi,

Natural authentic happiness can be attained through the proper kind of mental effort. Creating that State of Mind which you want to have --- will make you happy. Your body will generate all the required chemicals, in perfect balance, to accommodate that energy of your intent.

Some day our culture will know that all disease comes from the mind. Well being is created in the same way. It is like constructing the appropriate kinds of beliefs, as I see these things.

John

I think that the key here might be "authentic happiness".

Perhaps from that state we are more likely to feel motivation and have the energy for motion without the constant need to chase the high all the time.
Thanks John

[ianalexanderr]

Hi there ian, could you elaborate a little further on your thoughts here please :)

Loopy

I think of our Self Awareness as a self referencing loop (it always references back to itself which is why it is Self Aware) almost like a standing wave. Now within this standing wave is the memory of everything relevant to our life, comprised of all our memories of past events, our emotional history, various facts/details that we use in order to derive our conclusions and beliefs about the world and our place in it.

When we are not feeding the loop, we are placing our identity on the body and it's feelings, rather than the awareness that is beyond the body. If we become too comfortable, we descend into behaviours dictated by reaction, as our body and feelings reject or accept the world based on how it serves us or conforms to how we believe it should be. We become subject to anger, sorrow, the extremes of emotion as we fight what is - while at the same time lacking the Self Awareness to understand the futility of it. Outside Self Awareness we are simply reacting automatically, with little awareness.

When we are feeding this loop, we are placing our identity on the awareness that is experiencing reality via the body, not the body itself. Thus we can allow the experience of any thing, any emotion, or the reality of any event to stream past our awareness with acceptance. Every action, no matter how mundane is accepted and treated as an experience to become lost in: Walking, breathing, eating, because there is no ego judging the merit of anything, just open, accepting awareness.

Now if the standing wave becomes diminished - due to negligence, much of the information stored within the wave is subject to diminish as well. Our mind becomes less capable as before, our memory power may diminish, we might forget small things, we may constantly forget where we placed our keys etc.(You see, if you were aware of yourself and what you were doing when you placed your keys, you would not forget ;) )

The amount of damage is proportional to how compromised the standing wave is. I think collectively as a species, we are deficient in Self Awareness and it's only growing worse with technology. Now, more than ever before because of Television, Computers, phones etc. we have less of a reason to reflect and direct our attention inwards. If there was ever a study suggesting the decline of Intelligence worldwide this is why.

The most advanced part of the brain is the Pre-Frontal Cortex: http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/prefrontal-cortex

What does it do? It is responsible for Self Control and regulating behaviour - things only possible if you are Self Aware, not operating solely on reaction/automatic behaviour. To cultivate Self Awareness is to develop the brain to it's highest potential.

[RedEmbers]

The pineal gland (third eye) produces melatonin which is a serotonin derived hormone. Since serotonin is involved in pineal gland activity, I believe serotonin and the modification of it's production levels can be controlled via charging of the third eye chakra.
Hi there ianalexanderr :) Yes, I understand that there is are major glands associated with the different charkras, each producing different hormones and effects. I have a very limited understanding of theses systems of the body and chemical production within but find it a very fascinating topic... in fact, I think that I should have entitled this thread something more along the lines of "serotonin and other feel good hormones" :redface:
Every chakra we have is regulated by a charge/discharge function. Charge causes excitation of the associated endocrine gland, resulting in gland activity increasing. So if we want more production of good stuff involved with the pineal, we must charge it.
This makes sense. The enabling of of production of differing hormones can be altered in many subtle and not so subtle ways... many to do with external as well as internal factors... such as environment, emotional health , diet and exercise regimes as well as practices of meditation, mindfulness and prayer ect... even things such as breath awareness.
I believe charge for the third eye is a reward for "Self Awareness" when one is mindful of ones thoughts, movements, behaviors - exposing to the light of the conscious mind, what usually is knee jerk reaction, automatic, or unconscious. Mindfulness practice I believe charges the third eye.
Excellent, then increasing mindfulness in my life is probably one of the factors responsible for my clearer, more focused mood and increased positive outlook... now I just need to remember the method and continue the practice... (I have noticed that the effects have since waned from a few weeks back).

Sustained mindfulness, Self Awareness = Sustained high production of Serotonin and other related cognitive benefits (focus, memory, etc.)

Maybe... the pursuit of intermittent and moderated highs (as opposed to the extreme release of hormones which are released via synthetic mediums) is the go. The balance here would be a regular practice which maintains a baseline state of contentment and intermittent exercises which maybe help release an elevated release of those feel good hormones (catalysed through various means such as exercise, dance, music ect ect)


OMG finally someone gets it. Yes it does occur naturally. Back to charge/discharge...Now if One invests more time in discharging the chakra this results in an energy deficit - the endocrine gland shuts down for a time, until it can build its charge past the deficit. It is wiser to spend more time charging, then only after building an excess, enjoy the bliss of discharge when you can energetically afford it.
I am seeing a psychologist at the moment to help me move past some of my limiting beliefs which were formed imparted by my childhood experiences. I told her that I sometimes worry that I exhibit signs of Bi-polar but she helped me to understand that these experiences of an imbalance of emotions (drifting from highs to lows) is not un-common in those who have had childhood experiences similar to mine.
As a way of escape I learnt at a young age to really detach from my immediate environment. I escaped by creating a "hyper world" which I believe created a sense of temporary euphoria in me... consequently I would crash and the the crash would burn for a long time.

One great example is in orgasm. Notice that the orgasm is most powerful after waiting a period of time? Now after several orgasms one after the other, the feeling is less intense or might hurt a little - this is because there is no longer any energy to discharge, you have spent it all. Same works for any chakra and especially the brain.
yes...
If you spend more time in trance/bliss/psychic abilities/visualization rather than anchoring your mind to the present via mindfulness and Self Awareness you will simply deplete your third eye of its energy. Ironic, if you invest too much time in trance/psychic states (basically losing yourself) you will in the end truly lose yourself, your mind. I do believe that it is possible to develop a deficit so strong that in time it could lead to dementia.

In conclusion: the third eye like any other chakra has a charge/discharge function. Charge results from Self-Awareness, discharge results from trance/unity/bliss induced states of consciousness.
Thank you for your input here, I have found it to be very insightful

[RedEmbers]

Medicine and science should do a study of me....seriously!
I am so fascinated by chemistry as a grown up! I was not very good at school but I reckon if educators found a way to teach chemistry and science in general to the more artistic kids... kids like myself would have soaked it up!

[RedEmbers]

I am not sure but I often wonder in your poetry whether you have experienced some periods/ phases of depression. I apologize if this is not correct. So if you have and you are now moving more through the wave of happiness I am very happy for you.

Hi naturesflow, that's ok. It is true in regards to the waves of depression. Although the first wave of depression lasted for a decade during mid adolescents and young adult hood before I was able to gain any sense from it. I used to feel quite ashamed of it because of the perceived expectations I had for myself, but now accept it as part of my journey. I have noticed a change over the last few years where I am more able to be open to others in wholeness and am accepted that way as well.
Acceptance from self and society is huge as it allows a space for real healing and growth.

In a sense I am quite grateful for the process of "growing up". If one allows it, a great freedom can be gained. The journey of learning to let go again... regaining a sense of trust in the world.
I think that is what the whole weekend I spoke of enabled me to do... remember that I can trust myself and the world, with that sense of trust, I became free again.



Apparently I have not written enough characters yet to post my reply... the problem is that I have nothing more to add in this instance :D

[ianalexanderr]

This makes sense. The enabling of of production of differing hormones can be altered in many subtle and not so subtle ways... many to do with external as well as internal factors... such as environment, emotional health , diet and exercise regimes as well as practices of meditation, mindfulness and prayer ect... even things such as breath awareness.

We are born with our default levels of endocrine activity and chakra function set, as our energetic foundation for life, possibly dictated by genetics, probably by our own soul pattern or both. However they do change and respond as a reward system set up by nature to encourage certain behaviours that ensure our survival as an individual and as a species. Also it seems food temporarily has an effect on the energy body especially stimulants like coffee, tea etc.

Maybe... the pursuit of intermittent and moderated highs (as opposed to the extreme release of hormones which are released via synthetic mediums) is the go. The balance here would be a regular practice which maintains a baseline state of contentment and intermittent exercises which maybe help release an elevated release of those feel good hormones (catalysed through various means such as exercise, dance, music ect ect)

The goal is to become one's own source of high, by figuring out the rules of our built in reward system - and using it to our advantage. Our body rewards us with energy/charge/life when we stop seeking from the outside. When we stop wanting to find love externally through another person, but we find it within through selfless acts of kindness. When we find power, not over others, but over ourselves through discipline and self control. etc. Our reward system intends to teach us self empowerment. When we are following this, we are naturally rewarded by our own biology with the feel good stuff.

It is when we lack our own source of bliss, that we get dependant and hooked on external sources - which dis-empowers us, creating a cycle of addiction and hopelessness.

Self Empowerment = Charge.
Finding one's bliss/happiness outside of oneself= Discharge

[loopylucid]

Now if the standing wave becomes diminished - due to negligence, much of the information stored within the wave is subject to diminish as well. Our mind becomes less capable as before, our memory power may diminish, we might forget small things, we may constantly forget where we placed our keys etc.(You see, if you were aware of yourself and what you were doing when you placed your keys, you would not forget ;) ).

Well explained, and a very interesting idea, will look at this again and have a ponder :)




The goal is to become one's own source of high, by figuring out the rules of our built in reward system - and using it to our advantage. Our body rewards us with energy/charge/life when we stop seeking from the outside. When we stop wanting to find love externally through another person, but we find it within through selfless acts of kindness. When we find power, not over others, but over ourselves through discipline and self control. etc. Our reward system intends to teach us self empowerment. When we are following this, we are naturally rewarded by our own biology with the feel good stuff.

Self Empowerment = Charge.
Finding one's bliss/happiness outside of oneself= Discharge

Timeless reminder, thankyou.

“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.”

Sorry for the tangent Redembers, great thread, ty for sharing :)

Loopy