How to get rid of Ego

[SaintMatthew]

So, it really bothers me how much I think about self. Truly ego brings shame. Humility is the key to the least amount of humiliation.

The proud person worships reputation and being liked by others and is in so much pain when others don't like them, , always having to hide who they really are , wear a mask, be an actor, in order to feel comfortable.

A humble person accepts themself and they think less and less of self and more and more of others so that they don't have time, energy, or concern to think it is their business what other people think of them.

Ego is no good. It's good to feel good about oneself, but terrible to worship self.

It isn't so much self worship, because I really don't have anything to be proud of being a guy in a sober house without a car or a job, but simply I'm not winning the battle for humility and overcoming self-obsessiveness. Been trying and praying about it for years.

It is truly gross! There is a whole beautiful world out there with so many people , so many intentions to pray for , and here I am looking at this little speck of dust and so concerned about it:sad8:

It isn't going away. I know the name of Jesus has power so could always make about 50 invocations and blessings with that Powerful name daily for the grace to be humble and purification of pride *shrug*

CS Louis said humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking about yourself less.

It will save us a lot of pain and shame, and others will find it more pleasant to be with us when we are humble. Any suggestions?

[Arcturus]

"he aint got no doors"..is the plee in the backround, movie "Cider with Rosie". How to get something that requires indifference to experience it? No self sounds great to some folk, myself included, but what's meant by it? Once you have gone that way there's no turning back. Your head is literally "stuck in the universe", you could not think apart from the moment. To do that you must die, mentally and psyhcologically, to the moment. There is no how. It is there when the reasons for it not being there are removed. So there is nothing "to do" per se, but stuff to be seen as blocking you and so discarded and the added energy thereof.

[Arcturus]

I disagree w/myself.

How did the celibacy thing go?

[SaintMatthew]

I disagree w/myself.

How did the celibacy thing go?
Well, I certainly get a girl crazy from time to time but the best females are in heaven:D

If I get a life or wife I want it clearly to be the spirit of God guiding it. I don't feel comfortable getting married or really doing anything until I'm able to truly find the enlightenment to follow God, my angels, Saints, and Spirit guides.

So, that takes an enormous amount of time in silence and solitude. Nothing can be as pleasant as falling in love, but there's nothing that can make me more suicidal than a woman as well, so I have to be careful.

Most guys that I know who have killed themselves, it had to do with a woman breaking up with them

[Arcturus]

You did mention that you were going to try it...in case that question threw you. You be careful with yourself and relationships then eh. I've got a mate who breaks up badly. He's just got a new gal so is happy atm. We should be a light to ourselves, don't you think? Easier said than done tho eh. Sorry about your friends :(

I thought I sensed a hint of lavender in those eyes too. Maybe not, laters:smile:

[Uma]

CS Louis said humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking about yourself less.
Nice. I would add to that: and thinking more about how to act in alignment with divine intention.

I like your reflections on pride as a kind of insecurity issue - and narcissism too. Pride is the last thing to go in ego purification…it can be so subtle and sneaky. I know many people who go around saying "I am so humble" and believing it, but of course their pride is still there.

And I'm glad you see a beautiful world out there…but each of us is not just a speck of dust but also a spec of divine potential… mostly in potential because most people do not know it or honour it by using it. Those who use it radiate something beautiful and those who don't come across as muddy.

To live in an enlightened space we don't get rid of ego, we purify ego.

[Arcturus]

They do say that pride is the worst of the 7 deadly sins as it causes the other 6.

[Uma]

They do say that pride is the worst of the 7 deadly sins as it causes the other 6.
Makes sense to me from esoteric teachings: 7 chakras linked with 7 sins (and virtues). Pride probably goes with the brow chakra (home of ego, mind, intellect, the Guide). The brow chakra is the one that controls the 5 below it and decides whether or not to join the 7th. Or maybe pride goes with the heart - center of the soul. I dunno.

[Arcturus]

I'd guess it's to do with the brow Uma. Seems reasonable:smile:

[Within Silence]

So, it really bothers me how much I think about self. Truly ego brings shame. Humility is the key to the least amount of humiliation.

The proud person worships reputation and being liked by others and is in so much pain when others don't like them, , always having to hide who they really are , wear a mask, be an actor, in order to feel comfortable.

A humble person accepts themself and they think less and less of self and more and more of others so that they don't have time, energy, or concern to think it is their business what other people think of them.

Ego is no good. It's good to feel good about oneself, but terrible to worship self.

It isn't so much self worship, because I really don't have anything to be proud of being a guy in a sober house without a car or a job, but simply I'm not winning the battle for humility and overcoming self-obsessiveness. Been trying and praying about it for years.

It is truly gross! There is a whole beautiful world out there with so many people , so many intentions to pray for , and here I am looking at this little speck of dust and so concerned about it:sad8:

It isn't going away. I know the name of Jesus has power so could always make about 50 invocations and blessings with that Powerful name daily for the grace to be humble and purification of pride *shrug*

CS Louis said humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking about yourself less.

It will save us a lot of pain and shame, and others will find it more pleasant to be with us when we are humble. Any suggestions?


You cannot force yourself to not think about yourself, as thinking to not think about yourself is thinking about yourself.

The attempt to not be selfish is a selfish desire. Simply, you cannot not be selfish because all there is is the self.

Ego is not a thing in itself, you cannot go and buy it, you cannot take and put it in a box and give it to someone, yet we talk about it as if it is such a thing. Thus, how does one get rid of something which in fact is just a word, and what are words but descriptors or pointers to something else?
Rather, look at what the word ego is pointing to? What in actuality is ego?

If you say I have an ego, then is not ego I and I ego? Could ego be pointing to an aspect of I, the traits and characteristics of this "I?" Just as I say; "I have a hand" yet am I separate from hand? Thus, to rid oneself if "its" ego is an attempt to rid oneself of oneself, and is this possible?

What if there is nothing to rid oneself of, then where would one be? What if you just completely accept yourself as you are without any need to change anything? In other words, I just admit I'm selfish, so what? Who isn't? Show me one who declares "I'm not selfish" and I'll show one who is proud and arrogant! Is not the desire to make others better like "me" in itself selfish and also arrogant?

Is not the desire to change myself to something better in itself selfish? Is not someone else telling me I need to be more like them or like this or that just them being selfish in desiring me to be like them or this or that? How arrogant must one be to believe it knows how another should be? Are they the perfect example? How could one know that creation made a mistake if in fact they did not create creation? Can the effect rise higher than the cause? Can the finite mind be more intelligent than the infinite mind?

What if we just drop every belief that we need to be better and just be exactly as we are, and then in accepting ourselves as we are we then have the capacity to allow others to be just exactly as they are? Why can't we do this?

How do you improve yourself, stop trying and go live your life.
How do you rid yourself of ego, stop trying and go live your life.

Nothing is forced in nature. Every flower grows at its own pace and cannot bloom before its ready too. Even if a whole flower bed is planted at the same time with the same flowers they do not all grow at the same pace nor bloom at the same time. We humans are no different. Stop trying to force that which is a natural process.

[Miss Hepburn]

Getting Rid of Ego 101

Do everything good that you don't want to do.

Forgive.
Cut the hateful neighbor's weeds
Say a wonderful thing to a person that is always rude
Give and give to a selfish person
Don't eat that second piece of cake or drink that 3rd Martini.
Say I love you to a terrible family member
Never procrastinate



You get the idea...stomp it, crush it.... do everything it hates.
:wink:

[lancing]

Getting Rid of Ego 101

Do everything good that you don't want to do.

Forgive.
Cut the hateful neighbor's weeds
Say a wonderful thing to a person that is always rude
Give and give to a selfish person
Don't eat that second piece of cake or drink that 3rd Martini.
Say I love you to a terrible family member
Never procrastinate



You get the idea...stomp it, crush it.... do everything it hates.
:wink:

This is the greatest answer. It's beautiful. And remember that you must be as persistent as the ego is. It takes work! It is the EGO that is telling you that there are simple and concrete answers or that you should seek some simple or concrete answers to ridding yourself of it, which is funny! It's not just conscious thought. In fact, the ego is mostly unconscious thoughts. That's a whole other thing!

Miss Hepburn is right! Work on not looking good, not being correct, not reacting badly to the bad person, helping someone who you and others believe is nasty and may not deserve it. Look upon others with the kindness and gentleness that you want. Doing for, and giving to them because they need - not because it makes you feel good, but it will feel good, which is a conundrum.

It's hard. It's hard to explain, and it's even harder to do because you'll have to almost stop the flow of thoughts about yourself in your head. I know how difficult that can be. I can't write those things above and say that, that's all that it is because...there's so much more. But...if you want to take the journey to NO EGO, then you have to start. You'll get there if you're persistent, but push that ego aside and understand that you can't just jump from here to there, because the road is long. Too long for the eyes to see. We're with you. We are all holding hands anyway.

Love!

Blessings!:hug2:

[Floatsy]

Getting Rid of Ego 101

Do everything good that you don't want to do.

Forgive.
Cut the hateful neighbor's weeds
Say a wonderful thing to a person that is always rude
Give and give to a selfish person
Don't eat that second piece of cake or drink that 3rd Martini.
Say I love you to a terrible family member
Never procrastinate



That's so super sweet, Miss Hepburn :biggrin:

[Floatsy]

OP - To answer this question adequately, one would have to first see what is talked about :smile:

[Within Silence]

Beware of the do gooders- for the road to hell is paved with good intentions!

“Kindly let me help you or you will drown,” said the monkey putting the fish safely up a tree.

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 38

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,
And is therefore good.
A foolish man tries to be good,
And is therefore not good.

A truly good man does nothing,
Yet nothing is left undone.
A foolish man is always doing,
Yet much remains to be done

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there is ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao.
It is the beginning of folly.

Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
and not what is on the surface,
On the fruit and not the flower,
Therefore accept the one and reject the other.

http://www.walking-the-way.com/styled-2/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGyZ75sVn-c

[Miss Hepburn]

And remember that you must be as persistent as the ego is.
It takes work!
It's hard. ... and it's even harder to do... Blessings!:hug2: Oh, brother!
As in, being a Sentry at your post 24 hours a day!

But, the egoic mind tends to get bored playing with you after awhile...
it does become easier...tho the tricks get more subtle...
that gets to be fun catching them and squinting at them as you crush 'em.

PS:
LOL a trick of the ego is to make you think anything is hard.
(I'm an old hand at this and probably much older! I catch these things!) :wink:
Your ego, my ego...same ole tricks.

[Mr Interesting]

Yesterday I spent the whole day pulling apart an area of one of my buildings and basically realised that demolition creates a big mess... and anyone knows who digs holes that there is almost twice the amount of soil than there is hole.

Un-hole, or yet to be hole, is the compacted life but when you dig into it and lay it out is almost breathes out and spreads just enjoying the uncompactedness... but then where does it go? Do we then dig another hole?

And while I was pulling thing apart my head went upwards and just touched two sharp nails going downwards from a bit of wood... just touched them and felt the scratch but when I wiped my hand across my head... no blood. Wow, that was close!

And, of course, I had this vision of what it will be. So much better and more open but what then is all this broken and twisted stuff I have ripped out and why does it take up so much space? That is certainly not an open space and if anything it is that much more un-open.

Anyway, yesterday I carried on wrecking... I love wrecking! and I pried one bit off and it went flying and twirling and then, the nails in that, cut across my head and did the cut I so nearly received yesterday? So yes, I was blooded, yes that which had become and was unbecoming taught me we are part of the same conversation.

And it all was quite surprising, not the blooded head - that was merely natural consequence, a speaking in tongues at the level of material life, as I'd basically just, and I mean just, finished one building but even before I had a chance of a breather it was into the next task without even much time to even ponder the necessary refinements of a me having achieved something...

So you will never, ever be rid of ego but in your willingness to do, to be as suits you above all else... ego might be rid of you!

[wolfgaze]

It may be helpful to change the way you are conceptualizing this...

It's not that you 'get rid of' the egoic mind. It's that you discover and increasingly realize and integrate your higher nature/identity (as pure Consciousness/Awareness) that exists independent of the physical/egoic mind. You connect with a deeper awareness within you, and as you do this, the egoic mind will lose it's former stronghold over your state of Consciousness. It becomes disempowered and you begin to liberate yourself from the afflictions that stem from egoic mind identification.

I found Tolle's book (The Power Of Now) to be helpful/influential (for me)....

[running]

The part of the ego that is the problem in my experience is the part that is thinking some how something or someone is not a part of the whole. When im in acceptance of being worthy as i am everything always is. At some point i have found that i can come back around to self judgement and it no longer seems to matter so much. But thats not of my power but of the power i experience that runs through the body giving joy. The shakti current. At that point she becomes stronger than my mind. She i have found for me is what i was always searching for.

Let me make clear i am always judging in ways cause thats how life is possible. Im talking about self judgement mostly. But in that everything is worthy and i am to.

She in my experience is innocent in that there is no mind deciding what to love and not to. She is causeless and endless and beyond the thoughts and circumstances of life.

This is just what i have found through intuitive feeling and contemplating my experience with her. but questioning myself along the way. But i became to resist questioning her power and accept what i felt intuitively. Over time.

My experience may not be somebody elses. So i wish to make a point im sharing and not telling. Good luck to you on your journey!

[Within Silence]

Here is the etymology of the word ego:

ego (n.) 1714, as a term in metaphysics, "the self; that which feels, acts, or thinks," from Latin ego "I" (cognate with Old English ic; see I). Psychoanalytic (Freudian) sense is from 1894; sense of "conceit" is 1891. Ego-trip first recorded 1969, from trip (n.). Related: egoical; egoity.

Here is the definition of the word ego:
noun, plural egos.


1.the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.


2. Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.


3. egotism; conceit; self-importance:
Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.


4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings:
Your criticism wounded his ego.


5.(often initial capital letter) Philosophy. a.the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.


6.Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships.

The word ego originated in Germany, from 1780-90; < Latin: I; psychoanalytic term is translation of German (das) Ich (the) I


soooo.... when one say's "I" must rid myself of the ego, or as we see above the "I", this is the ego declaring that it will rid itself of itself, which is in fact impossible. Ones identity as a separate "this" or "that" , its feeling of superiority is what's called egotism, hence ones idea of itself, its inflated sense of self importance ABOVE another is what people are pointing to with the word ego. It is this inflated sense of self importance that is a major cause of suffering in this world. The thing to see is that everyone in the world, EVERYONE operates from the Same I, the same sense of I, ME, and thus the ONLY thing that separates us is our thoughts/beliefs which all originate within the MIND. Going yet further, there is the awareness of the sensation of "I", that which is silent and always prior to "I", that which is wordless...then out from that comes "I"

Hence the great spiritual question; "who am I?" or what is the word I pointing to and what is looking for it?

This is why bringing the mind to silence, no word, no internal dialogue, still, empty, is what reveals that there is this identity-less presence/awareness, always here, now.

I hope this helps clarify it.

[firstandlast]

Personally, I just identify with everything and can be as selfish as I want--

[RyanWind]

So, it really bothers me how much I think about self. Truly ego brings shame.

Quiet and peace and no conflict is a gift you give yourself. It's not that thinking about self is a problem, it's thinking that thinking about self is a problem that creates a problem. Thinking about self is a problem to who or what? The only part of you that can be bothered by thoughts is thoughts.

[Shivani Devi]

I am reminded about a Skyhooks song; "Ego Is Not A Dirty Word'.

Often, people confuse the term 'ego' with pride, selfishness, vanity and arrogance, when all it is, is the sense of just 'being who you are'.

To get rid of the 'notion of ego' is quite easy through performing selfless acts and charity...by being able to have empathy and to see things from the perspective of another (a talent I do not have). To get rid of the 'actual ego' is a lot more challenging, because just as you reach that 'aha moment' the universe comes along and dumps a whole lot more paperwork on your desk with a 'did you think you had finished, did you?'

The first step in trying to get rid of the ego is to stop trying. Don't get hung up on 'reaching enlightenment' because the closer one gets to it, the further it moves away...it's like trying to find that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - it's all a matter of perspective.

Now, I just let whatever happens happen with a 'yeah, that's all well and good, but what's next?' I'm trying not to dwell on things, not even for a second because 'mental mastication' is my biggest failing.

Peace.

[Somnia]

I personally believe it's not a factor of getting rid of the ego, but learning how to observe one's egoic mind and transcend above it...

[Gem]

I was doing a bit of writing trying to pack a complicated concept neatly and tightly into a paragraph when it occurred to me that there's psychic divide with a self-controller on one side keeping watch over a controlled self on the other. This dual self comes up again and again in literature, art and representation, because it is an abstract term that signifies the contrast between the immaterial self and the self imagery.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/25/article-1089256-02979408000005DC-554_468x426.jpg

The writing I was engaged in is about Skillet's music video, Monster. The lyrics describe a controlling self that exercises self-control over the monstrous self. The film clip uses windows and glass to represent the brittle transparency that demarcates by separating the controller from the controlled. The 'controller' in the clip is represented by a blend of psychiatric measures and militant police enforcement. The clip hints at structural similarities between the military and the hospital, and articulates well the relationships between professional treatment, confinement, police control and social civilisation. The lyrics describe lead singer, John Cooper's, struggles with his inner monster, and how he's losing control of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mjlM_RnsVE

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10400000/Skillet-Monster-Music-Video-skillet-10496212-480-270.jpg

In the horror genre we are shown the thin line between the human and the werewolf, the sophisticated Count Dracula and the bloodthirsty vampire. No two characters represent this better that Jekyll and Hyde, and David Banner and the Hulk (or is that 4 characters?).

When we talk about ego, we refer to an objectifiable or recognisable artifact of some kind which is 'other-than' in some way, but it's a law of nature that where light shines upon something there becomes its misshapen shadow, and only the transparency of glass leaves no dark its its wake, but do we wish to speak to spectres as did Hamlet, or release monsters held at bay by self control as John Cooper suggests?

[Floatsy]

Personally, I just identify with everything and can be as selfish as I want--

:biggrin: ...........

[Shivani Devi]

I was doing a bit of writing trying to pack a complicated concept neatly and tightly into a paragraph when it occurred to me that there's psychic divide with a self-controller on one side keeping watch over a controlled self on the other. This dual self comes up again and again in literature, art and representation, because it is an abstract term that signifies the contrast between the immaterial self and the self imagery.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/25/article-1089256-02979408000005DC-554_468x426.jpg

The writing I was engaged in is about Skillet's music video, Monster. The lyrics describe a controlling self that exercises self-control over the monstrous self. The film clip uses windows and glass to represent the brittle transparancy that demarcates by separating the controller from the controlled. The 'controller' in the clip is represented by a blend of psychiatric measures and militant police enforcement. The clip hints at structural similarities between the military and the hospital, and articulates well the relationships between professional treatment, confinement, police control and social civilisation. The lyrics describe lead singer, John Cooper's, struggles with his inner monster, and how he's losing control of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mjlM_RnsVE

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10400000/Skillet-Monster-Music-Video-skillet-10496212-480-270.jpg

In the horror genre we are shown the thin line between the human and the werewolf, the sophisticated Count Dracula and the bloodthirsty vampire. No two characters represent this better that Jekyll and Hyde, and David Banner and the Hulk (or is that 4 characters?).

When we talk about ego, we refer to an objectifiable or recognisable artifact of some kind which is 'other-than' in some way, but it's a law of nature that where light shines upon something there becomes its misshapen shadow, and only the transparency of glass leaves no dark its its wake, but do we wish to speak to spectres as did McBeth, or release monsters held at bay by self control as John Cooper suggests?
Very nice, Gem! Skillet's "Monster" is on my iPod already, along with another song from a band called Iced Earth called Jeckyl and Hyde:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFhJrl9dUw

In fact, if I look at my whole iPod playlist, almost every song on it deals with the 'duality of spirit' and man's attempts to overcome it...from "Down With The Sickness" by Disturbed...to "Chrome" by VNV Nation to "Immortal" by The Cruxshadows, to "The Dark Half" by Aesthetic Perfection and even "Fiend" by Coal Chamber...yes, nearly every darn song. lol

The only one that deals with 'totality of spirit' is a song called "Inside of you, inspite of you" by Thoushaltnot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB1zc9Bblsc

It took me a very long time to get an avatar on here because I couldn't decide what avatar I wanted...

Finally, the one I chose is an anime character called "Yami Bakura" who is a dark, negative energy which enters the body of "Ryu Bakura" who is a positive, sweet, kind little kid.

The reason why I chose it is because the character of Yami Bakura has been misunderstood as being pathological, evil, derided etc, but when it all boils down to it, he just had some 'unfinished karmic business' to conduct with Yami Yugi some 3,000 years since both of them walked the earth and since Yami Yugi was the 'hero' of the piece, there had to be a 'villain' to make the hero look good.

I mean, it was the pharaonic line (Yami Yugi) who killed off a whole village of tomb raiders (kul 'elna), raiding tombs because the pharaohs had taxed them all heavily, just to put money and golden objects with their dead, when they believed that the living could use it more...it wasn't their fault.

It wasn't the fault of Yami Bakura (Thief King Bakura) to watch, as a young child, his parents getting murdered and their blood mixed in with the gold to make the Millennium Items and in doing so, an evil spirit was born called Zorc Necrophades which possessed the young boy (and then possessed another young boy 3000 years later).

While many people loathed Yami Bakura, I actually pitied him and felt a connection there.

As for Marik? he's just plain bat-faced crazy. :tongue:

[Shivani Devi]

Now, I am just going to indulge in an indulgence for this post only:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aDxhRk3VUo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qILK5fkHzos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k_jeqRWKbk

[Arcturus]

My interest is that any innate sense of being be allowed to flower. Trying to decide which bits of ego are "good" and therefore desirable and which are "bad" and therefore needing to be discarded is just way too messy. Who decides? Chasing my tail all eternity with that one.

It sounds right, as others have said or implied, that there is nothing you can do per se. To act on ego is to strengthen it further. You cannot get rid of it because it lies under too many stones, has too many disguises and insecurities. Only in seeing it's workings can I be free of it's binding affects and then I would not care whether it were gone or not...and so it would be. At least the self limiting affects.

To want to get rid of it I must design a concept to meet that end but concepts are born of the past and can they adequately meet the present? Perhaps only in the flame of present attention can the ways of self be seen and any binding factors be dropped.

Who am I? Should I be the conglomerate of social expectations and familial conditioning? I don't want to keep or loose ego but just understand what's there. Understanding is king in my book. Understanding is the freeing factor.

[Floatsy]

Seeing, learning, laughing.

As heart said on another post, sure ego gets a bad wrap but it's also gonna be the tool of your salvation. Find him first, then watch and watch and watch and watch...

[Floatsy]

"Who are you?" asked the little prince, and added, "You are very pretty to look at."

"I am a fox," the fox said.

"Come and play with me," proposed the little prince. "I am so unhappy."

"I cannot play with you," the fox said. "I am not tamed."

Le Petit Prince (http://www.angelfire.com/hi/littleprince/framechapter21.html)

[Lorelyen]

I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions.
So, it really bothers me how much I think about self. Truly ego brings shame. Humility is the key to the least amount of humiliation.
Whether this is true for you only you can tell but I can't work out how thinking about self would necessarily bring shame unless your motives are shameful - or that humility isn't equally a part of ego.

The proud person worships reputation and being liked by others and is in so much pain when others don't like them, , always having to hide who they really are , wear a mask, be an actor, in order to feel comfortable.
Again, this may be true for some but is a bit of a way out generalisation. One can be proud and if confident in that pride, what's wrong with that? Likewise there are those hurt when they find out people don't like them but they can do something about it if they want. It's a pipe-dream to imagine everyone is going to like you or that you'll like everyone. I don't like everyone and I don't expect them to like me. I'm not one of these pacifists who think I ought to like people in spite of traits I find nasty about them.


Ego is no good. It's good to feel good about oneself, but terrible to worship self.The problem is - if you have no ego you have no public self. It's fine that in one's spiritual existence there are times when ego has to be abandoned but while interacting with society, you'd effectively be invisible.

It isn't so much self worship, because I really don't have anything to be proud of being a guy in a sober house without a car or a job, but simply I'm not winning the battle for humility and overcoming self-obsessiveness. Been trying and praying about it for years.

It is truly gross! There is a whole beautiful world out there with so many people , so many intentions to pray for , and here I am at this little speck of dust and so concerned about it:sad8: This is honestly the moment to wake up spiritually. Every man and every woman is a star. There is beauty about the world and there is terror. It struggles to achieve a balance which some would call peace, others "contentment". The amount of latitude allowed an individual to be "free" has always been limited but we can all do our best to look for and promote the beautiful, always aware that it is in the eyes of the beholder (so to speak).

CS Louis said humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking about yourself less.Agreed but it seems to be how much one is willing to love people (the species in general). If one appreciates people for what they are; sees a bright spirit in all (or at least those that haven't deliberately extinguished or hidden that spirit - usually because as you say, of an excess of self-centredness, concern for their interests alone) then the tendency is to behave naturally which would include a due amount of humility - and sometimes assertiveness. People are sometimes expected to be assertive. We play many roles to get through our lives, roles that we learn from an early age given the right templates. In the absence of those templates we have to observe. Our egos direct us to survive materially and spiritually so we have to learn how to interact to get through. Or am I wrong?

It will save us a lot of pain and shame, and others will find it more pleasant to be with us when we are humble. Any suggestions?
Leaders are expected to lead which doesn't mean they can't be humble toward their followers. But it does come with an expectation that the led will follow. I suppose (thinking about Sun Tzu's The Art of War) it's renegade followers who abuse a leader's humility and therefore have to be dealt with assertively. Humility may help resolve dispute but should never be read as a sign of weakness.

Some interesting points you make but I feel they try to stereotype....with some justification, but are not applicable to "people oriented" people. If you basically love people you take these things in your stride.

...

[Lorelyen]

Seeing, learning, laughing.

As heart said on another post, sure ego gets a bad wrap but it's also gonna be the tool of your salvation. Find him first, then watch and watch and watch and watch...

If you'll excuse me saying so, how absolutely astute.

:smile:

...

[Arcturus]

The problem is - if you have no ego you have no public self. It's fine that in one's spiritual existence there are times when ego has to be abandoned but while interacting with society, you'd effectively be invisible.


Heya, I'm not sure one needs ego to interact with society. Is it possible to know what having no ego is like until you're there? I don't think we can or should project it's qualities from where we currently stand- with ego. We cannot know. Intellect and logic are innate to the body and that's the kind of thing you use to interact I think.

I do think there's a point here though. Society is not currently geared up for egoless beings. It is my feeling, from reading mainly, that such beings, like Buddha etc, receive alot of protection.

And then which bits of ego does one need to interact with society? A feeling of superiority? Of course inferiority won't help either.

[Arcturus]

Seeing, learning, laughing.

As heart said on another post, sure ego gets a bad wrap but it's also gonna be the tool of your salvation. Find him first, then watch and watch and watch and watch...

I suppose misery can beget joy but is there not a very real danger here of glorifying suffering as necessary and could that not allow it to continue ad nauseum?

Perhaps salvation occurs when ego ends not because of it. I think there's a very fine and important difference.

Suffering is not a teacher. Suffering leads only to darkness. I may end my negative ways because of that darkness but that would be through common sense, not the suffering per se. Suffering is almost a religion.

So is a tool you use for salvation (as if there's anything to do anyway rather than undo) or one you discard altogether because you see it's insecurity and perniciousness? I hope I'm not coming over as splitting hairs but I don't think ego ever helps. It's ending, and hence your salvation, is not it aiding you. You have seen it's pointlessness is all.

[Arcturus]

Just another thought that the dishes sprung up.

Ego requires psychological certainty. It must feel secure within itself. That, to me, is born of actual state of uncertainty and insecurity. It's a reaction to it and so it contains it still. The reaction of opposites being no change at all.

If at any one point I feel the need to be certain within myself then that very need indicates I don't have that security. Chasing my tail? The body requires certainty: food, shelter etc but have we projected this need to other areas of our life where it is neither needed or helpful? Is psychological certainty possible? Must I feel great about myself just to operate? Of course depression wouldn't help either but don't let anyone, or yourself, let you think that those are the only options

[lancing]

Oh, brother!
As in, being a Sentry at your post 24 hours a day!

But, the egoic mind tends to get bored playing with you after awhile...
it does become easier...tho the tricks get more subtle...
that gets to be fun catching them and squinting at them as you crush 'em.

PS:
LOL a trick of the ego is to make you think anything is hard.
(I'm an old hand at this and probably much older! I catch these things!) :wink:
Your ego, my ego...same ole tricks.

Oh yes, I know! It does become easier. However, it is difficult, especially for someone who is not used to not thinking of the self all of the time. But the same way the ego will tell you something is hard it will also tell you it is not...the thing that sets the person without an ego apart is that they do it in spite of it's perceived difficulty or ease, because the ego will tell you it's too difficult to accomplish or it's so easy it should be a breeze for you. When you've learned to let that ego go, you just do what you do without the perception. But this is new for him, and in lending my hand to help...I will not say an untruth...it is difficult, but it is certainly achievable. If it wasn't none of us would be here.

The ego is sneaky! This I know, and you're right...once you are as good as you are...it becomes fun to notice and fight those little tricks. :wink: Why do you think I'm quoting you and replying??? I bet you know! :wink:

Blessings! :hug2:

[Uma]

"Who are you?" asked the little prince, and added, "You are very pretty to look at."
"I am a fox," the fox said.
"Come and play with me," proposed the little prince. "I am so unhappy."
"I cannot play with you," the fox said. "I am not tamed."

Le Petit Prince (http://www.angelfire.com/hi/littleprince/framechapter21.html)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--Yg5swqPvNk/T4cwk0y8hCI/AAAAAAAAAls/Ej30TwICxYo/s1600/prince.jpg

Yes! Great analogy Floatsy :icon_thumleft: Ego needs to be tamed not killed. Only the purified ego can play in the dance of maya without harming itself and others.

Contemplating this a bit more...
the posture of the prince is like tamasic ego, lazy, wants a free lunch...
or like the innocent ego, a child straight from heaven, having to mature and realize things are not so easy on the Earth plane
the fox is like that inner voice of the Higher Self, saying
"If you want something you need to take the first step...put effort into it."
and foxes are tricky, you know...the trickster...

...so many gems of wisdom in Le Petit Prince...one of my favourites :smile:

[naturesflow]

So, it really bothers me how much I think about self. Truly ego brings shame. Humility is the key to the least amount of humiliation.

The proud person worships reputation and being liked by others and is in so much pain when others don't like them, , always having to hide who they really are , wear a mask, be an actor, in order to feel comfortable.

A humble person accepts themself and they think less and less of self and more and more of others so that they don't have time, energy, or concern to think it is their business what other people think of them.

Ego is no good. It's good to feel good about oneself, but terrible to worship self.

It isn't so much self worship, because I really don't have anything to be proud of being a guy in a sober house without a car or a job, but simply I'm not winning the battle for humility and overcoming self-obsessiveness. Been trying and praying about it for years.

It is truly gross! There is a whole beautiful world out there with so many people , so many intentions to pray for , and here I am looking at this little speck of dust and so concerned about it:sad8:

It isn't going away. I know the name of Jesus has power so could always make about 50 invocations and blessings with that Powerful name daily for the grace to be humble and purification of pride *shrug*

CS Louis said humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking about yourself less.

It will save us a lot of pain and shame, and others will find it more pleasant to be with us when we are humble. Any suggestions?


Over thinking leads to more thinking so regardless of what your thinking about, sometimes just quietening the mind down and being still can help to let go of all the thoughts that tell you how you need to be. And help you listen to how you can just be.

A humble heart grows over time through life and experiences, when it is able to continually let go of what holds it from itself.

You are all of you that requires all of you to know all of you.

How much attention you pay to those aspects your yearning to be often misses those moments of what you are meant to be exactly as you are right now.

For me the less involved I am in striving to be something, the faster I let go and open to reach deeper awareness in myself to meet those parts I am wanting to become and know.

Knowing intention will not make life and experiences go away. Life creates us to build a life and grow through. You have your whole life.


Just be. Listen and let go and know life is a transient flow in everyway we are and life is. Nothing stays the same..:)

[Miss Hepburn]

In a world where so many have low self esteem...I think ego is my friend.

It is the same ego when a little boy says, "Mommy watch! Did you see me dive?!!!!"

It is a great thing to know who you are in the scheme of things...to stand tall
and confident in this world...as it says in the Bible to walk boldly
to the throne.
This is important for you, Matt, as such a religious person.
God, doesn't want us to feel shame, period.

When the ego fills you with jealousy, anger, laziness, shame,
as you point out ...well, basically separation...
that's the part that gets us in trouble.

As far as being too self absorbed...I think the rule of thumb is to be kind.
Life can be so simple when we just go that extra step and say a kind thing,
remember a person's name and ask about their injury from last week,
do that kind act to uplift another person...letting them know they count,
they matter.

That's not hard for you, right, Matt?
Because I know you are a sweetheart.

[Arcturus]

Why is that the only choice we're given is misery or confidence? Seems so limiting.

[Floatsy]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--Yg5swqPvNk/T4cwk0y8hCI/AAAAAAAAAls/Ej30TwICxYo/s1600/prince.jpg

...so many gems of wisdom in Le Petit Prince...one of my favourites :smile:

Thank you for posting the picture, and for your commentary, Uma!

I absolutely adore Le Petit Prince too!

“People where you live," the little prince said, "grow five thousand roses in one garden... yet they don't find what they're looking for...

They don't find it," I answered.

And yet what they're looking for could be found in a single rose, or a little water..."

Of course," I answered.

And the little prince added, "But eyes are blind. You have to look with the heart.”

― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince

[Floatsy]

I suppose misery can beget joy but is there not a very real danger here of glorifying suffering as necessary and could that not allow it to continue ad nauseum?

Hello Vector :hug2:

Where have I said that suffering needs to be glorified? Or is this your assumption about the road out of suffering? :smile:

Perhaps salvation occurs when ego ends not because of it. I think there's a very fine and important difference.

Ahh I see. You are asking about the utility or role of ego here.

I am delighted at this inquiry and thank you for it, Arcturus.

I could answer (and maybe I will in my own words later) but perhaps I will bring the wisdom of one you feel some resonance with, as it may be more effective:

"What is the good of my asking if there is happiness when I am suffering? Can I understand suffering? That is my problem, not how to be happy. I am happy when I am not suffering, but the moment I am conscious of it, it is not happiness. So, I must understand what is suffering. Can I understand what is suffering when a part of my mind is running away seeking happiness, seeking a way out of this misery? So must I not, if I am to understand suffering, be completely one with it, not reject it, not justify it, not condemn it, not compare it, but completely be with it and understand it?

The truth of what is happiness will come if I know how to listen. I must know how to listen to suffering; if I can listen to suffering I can listen to happiness because that is what I am."

J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life (http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-daily-quote/20110707.php?t=Sorrow)

Suffering is not a teacher. Suffering leads only to darkness. I may end my negative ways because of that darkness but that would be through common sense, not the suffering per se. Suffering is almost a religion.


Not according to Krishnamurti who seems to also suggest that seeing paves the way to liberation. I do not use the word understand because understanding suggests for many a thinking about it, when this matter is not just thinking about it.

I have not heard of suffering being a religion, sorry.

So is a tool you use for salvation (as if there's anything to do anyway rather than undo) or one you discard altogether because you see it's insecurity and perniciousness? I hope I'm not coming over as splitting hairs but I don't think ego ever helps. It's ending, and hence your salvation, is not it aiding you. You have seen it's pointlessness is all.

:smile: It's like you are sent to Mars to solve a puzzle. The puzzle is a maze in front of you. It's frustrating, it's unclear, you hit a head a few times. You get lost, you cry for help, you give up and pretend you never cared in the first place. You'd give it up today if you could, but you can't, you're in this maze now..But what if one day you solve this maze. You walk it, know it, you suddenly see its many possibilities, it's not a maze after all, it's the gifting to you of a Treasure beyond words or numbers. It is in effect a gift from God to you when you have uncovered its treasure i.e. what was once the reason for seeking (for let's face it, who would seek if they were not pushed by an urge inside), becomes a boon for utility.

I have not suggested, nor do I, praise or elevate suffering or (ego) or whatever we wish to call it: I have only encouraged a path of self-investigation as suggested by the many Saints and Masters that have come before us. In this way, even the skeptic need not fear for I ask not for money, or fame :biggrin:

But I am suggesting there is a real efficacy in contemplative practices whereby one looks into one's heart. Hears one's own suffering, theories, anger, fear, happiness, hope, how some days are good, others are not-so-good. These are all matters for investigation in one's own heart. These are all available for the seeker who seeks to free them-self of (what is commonly called) ego, or in other words, the seed of suffering.

How the hell otherwise would anyone know who to believe otherwise? These people - they seem assured, but they're probably fake. The dead Masters might be reliable but heck, who knows what they really meant. Maybe I can just not do anything and hope for the best. Or maybe I can turn my ego into a fake parroting what is only in the head, but not yet of the heart (bad choice in my opinion).

Or ... maybe I can look inside myself, meditate a little and keep learning with an open heart and mind. Keep looking, keep learning, see the tail, once you see the tail, it can start.

And when you see for yourself, there is no doubt...

The wider question, which you have indeed touched upon, is what exactly is ego. So in a metaphysical sense, what is thought, body, emotion, consciousness, senses. This is the subject of some religions. Even without this inquiry, regardless of how we define "ego", I'm not suggesting an elevation of, or adding to, I'm just suggesting "look, investigate for yourself, sit".

http://marcbouriche.blogvie.com/files/2011/02/petit-prince-web-2.jpg

“What makes the desert beautiful,' said the little prince, 'is that somewhere it hides a well...”

― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince

Respectfully,
floatzy

[declan]

The "ego" cannot survive in a person who is Present.To get a taste of this state , there is a very well tried and tested method of focusing on the breath.By focusing on your breath as it happens in real time you stop thinking and become Present, egoless for as long as you are Present.Then expand this consciousness into a permanent state. It can be done and has been done for centuries by people just like you and me.

[7luminaries]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--Yg5swqPvNk/T4cwk0y8hCI/AAAAAAAAAls/Ej30TwICxYo/s1600/prince.jpg

Yes! Great analogy Floatsy :icon_thumleft: Ego needs to be tamed not killed. Only the purified ego can play in the dance of maya without harming itself and others.

Contemplating this a bit more...
the posture of the prince is like tamasic ego, lazy, wants a free lunch...
or like the innocent ego, a child straight from heaven, having to mature and realize things are not so easy on the Earth plane
the fox is like that inner voice of the Higher Self, saying
"If you want something you need to take the first step...put effort into it."
and foxes are tricky, you know...the trickster...

...so many gems of wisdom in Le Petit Prince...one of my favourites :smile:


Very nice :smile:
That's the thing...we are all wise, and we are all simple....
I can also see the little prince as the higher self...pure and loving, where all things are simple and clarified in love...

And the fox as the illuminated waking self, saying just what you said...
"things are not so easy on the Earth plane"...and yes, they can be tricky.
"If you want something you need to take the first step...put effort into it."

Above all, this story shows the prince is both wise, and simple.
And those he apparently instructs (unwittingly) are the very ones from which he too must learn. That is the endless circle within the endless circle.

The integration of the fox's response to the little prince is where conscious action and wisdom come together in the waking world. Where he learns what it means to engage the world from a place of authentic love for one and all. In spirit, all is love and there's no confusion, and neither thought nor effort is required. But in the translation of love into our waking world, we come to truly discover what love in expression IS. How it feels and how we engage with it...how we give and receive it from a heart-led consciousness. We discover this in the most personal and therefore the most universal of ways. Through engaging with life -- with self, Self, and one another.

What does it mean to put forth the effort to tame the illuminated waking self? It means respecting and honouring what nurtures and sustains one's body and mind, heart and soul. And doing likewise with regard to others and what nurtures and sustains them.

Only the illuminated waking self can truly instruct or convey to the higher self how it is that we experience acts of kindness, or love...or their opposites. To convey how it is that we give and receive kindness and love. And how it is that we move beyond intention and love in spirit to an illuminated and integrated knowing and being in this moment, in the fullness of our incarnated existence.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

In a world where so many have low self esteem...I think ego is my friend.

It is the same ego when a little boy says, "Mommy watch! Did you see me dive?!!!!"

It is a great thing to know who you are in the scheme of things...to stand tall
and confident in this world...as it says in the Bible to walk boldly
to the throne.
This is important for you, Matt, as such a religious person.
God, doesn't want us to feel shame, period.

When the ego fills you with jealousy, anger, laziness, shame,
as you point out ...well, basically separation...
that's the part that gets us in trouble.

As far as being too self absorbed...I think the rule of thumb is to be kind.
Life can be so simple when we just go that extra step and say a kind thing,
remember a person's name and ask about their injury from last week,
do that kind act to uplift another person...letting them know they count,
they matter.

That's not hard for you, right, Matt?
Because I know you are a sweetheart.

What a wonderful post, Miss H :hug:
Agreed...with all you've expressed about ego, separation, the importance of kindness, and the divine right and value in having an authentic love of oneself. That last can take some work to fully rediscover, but it's a precious thing and is the birthright of all.

Peace & blessings :hug3:

7L

[Arcturus]

Hello Vector :hug2:

Where have I said that suffering needs to be glorified? Or is this your assumption about the road out of suffering? :smile:

Hi Floatsy m'dears. Second time lucky as just lost my last reply like the big fish that got away you should've seen it! I'm replying generally as well as specifically. If ego, which is sorrow, is stated as a tool to end suffering then it is being touted as useful, as I understand it.


Ahh I see. You are asking about the utility or role of ego here.

I am delighted at this inquiry and thank you for it, Arcturus.

I could answer (and maybe I will in my own words later) but perhaps I will bring the wisdom of one you feel some resonance with, as it may be more effective:

"What is the good of my asking if there is happiness when I am suffering? Can I understand suffering? That is my problem, not how to be happy. I am happy when I am not suffering, but the moment I am conscious of it, it is not happiness. So, I must understand what is suffering. Can I understand what is suffering when a part of my mind is running away seeking happiness, seeking a way out of this misery? So must I not, if I am to understand suffering, be completely one with it, not reject it, not justify it, not condemn it, not compare it, but completely be with it and understand it?

The truth of what is happiness will come if I know how to listen. I must know how to listen to suffering; if I can listen to suffering I can listen to happiness because that is what I am."

J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life (http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-daily-quote/20110707.php?t=Sorrow)

Not according to Krishnamurti who seems to also suggest that seeing paves the way to liberation. I do not use the word understand because understanding suggests for many a thinking about it, when this matter is not just thinking about it.

I'm not sure how what I've said contradicts K? Could you elucidate further? Nice little passage btw don't you think? Stay with what you are. Clean your gutter. Don't invent pretty bright lights to dazzle yourself and others whilst remaining in slumber. Most folk escape from sorrow into positivity but reactions contain their opposites of course.

I have not heard of suffering being a religion, sorry.

Well although I see the crucifixion as an "avatarial" kundalini awakening, it is thought and displayed as a man suffering in agony. Then you have the self whipping and other mortifications of the flesh. But here really, if ego (which is sorrow) is touted as a tool then it's being promoted as useful and I don't believe it is so. Common sense ends sorrow. Common sense is not personal and does not require an ego. In fact I'd say it operates better w/o one. So, I'm saying ego has no place in ending itself. That's for common sense to see it's pointlessness or downright mischief and so it fizzles out w/o no action on it whatsoever.

:smile: It's like you are sent to Mars to solve a puzzle. The puzzle is a maze in front of you. It's frustrating, it's unclear, you hit a head a few times. You get lost, you cry for help, you give up and pretend you never cared in the first place. You'd give it up today if you could, but you can't, you're in this maze now..But what if one day you solve this maze. You walk it, know it, you suddenly see its many possibilities, it's not a maze after all, it's the gifting to you of a Treasure beyond words or numbers. It is in effect a gift from God to you when you have uncovered its treasure i.e. what was once the reason for seeking (for let's face it, who would seek if they were not pushed by an urge inside), becomes a boon for utility.

I have not suggested, nor do I, praise or elevate suffering or (ego) or whatever we wish to call it: I have only encouraged a path of self-investigation as suggested by the many Saints and Masters that have come before us. In this way, even the skeptic need not fear for I ask not for money, or fame :biggrin:

Yet not being enlightened we must be feeding suffering somewhere? The fact we are here indicates the above are concepts and not actualities. That's fine. We must communicate and are not buddhas so conceptualising is inevitable and of course the actuality will destroy the concept.

So do you still hold that ego is a tool? I can see the line we're walking but it's like the Golden Age concept. It annoys me (my bag) when folk say and imply that the Golden Age is coming. It's as if it's a forgone conclusion and therefore we can rest on our laurels=suffering is fine because it'll end up as enlightenment. But it's got to end it can't transform.


But I am suggesting there is a real efficacy in contemplative practices whereby one looks into one's heart. Hears one's own suffering, theories, anger, fear, happiness, hope, how some days are good, others are not-so-good. These are all matters for investigation in one's own heart. These are all available for the seeker who seeks to free them-self of (what is commonly called) ego, or in other words, the seed of suffering.

Sounds good. I'm all for internal investigation. Theories are psychological of course. I don't like the idea of seeker as he is ego and cannot do himself good. The seeker will find according to the concept he wishes to exemplify but will it be truth? I do not seek to end ego and I suggest the same for you. The desire prevents it's ending. We're sooooo used to acting on stuff aren't we? Me too. We just can't leave it be. We feel a problem and seek to end it or cover over it. The seeing, or understanding, is the doing. That doesn't demand comfort and so is not succeptible to personal whim.

How the hell otherwise would anyone know who to believe otherwise? These people - they seem assured, but they're probably fake. The dead Masters might be reliable but heck, who knows what they really meant. Maybe I can just not do anything and hope for the best. Or maybe I can turn my ego into a fake parroting what is only in the head, but not yet of the heart (bad choice in my opinion).

The heart stuff to me is intangible and up in the air. Make statements on it and we can go into it. Energy must flow through all systems, physical, emotional and mental and blocks anywhere is obviously no good. Many folk would come to Krishnamurti for healing (many would be allowed to sit at the front of a talk as this was often sufficient) but he said that you can heal people physically endlessly, unless they drop the concepts they live by illness will return. The mind/thoughts narrows down the heart. Their intricacies must be understood. It's a little more arduous that heart chakra talk I'm afraid.

Supposedly a highly advanced yogi with many siddhis including levitation came to see K. No doubt his heart chakra was pretty wide open and kundalini was active more than average but he left K with the comment, "I would give up all the siddhis for one glimpse of Nirvana." So folk can keep their kundalini and open hearts because from where I'm sat they've changed diddlesquat really. It is the concepts that block. But that is more arduous. The heart will open automatically when mental ill health is removed. Which we all have no? We are not aware of the mess we live in I don't think. Many, if not all, folk who do Ayahuasca (not encouraging) are often shocked at their daily behaviour and how they have been treating others. Forgive us father for we know not what we say. Fact unfortunately.

Or ... maybe I can look inside myself, meditate a little and keep learning with an open heart and mind. Keep looking, keep learning, see the tail, once you see the tail, it can start.

It's good to drop what is fake though I think it is known what the "Masters" have said. The perrenial wisdom is definitely out in the world and technology will make it more widely available. Not that it's to be accepted but questioned.

Generally when we look inside (which may not be the case here) we're just inventing another authority. We drop the authorities of the fake gurus whilst inadvertently making ourselves high priest of our own personal religion. Ego finding it's way into this lovely no ego talk (shhhh it's trying to go unnoticed). Ego loves a bit of seeking, a bit of lets drop ego and all that. Do you think being your own authority is helpfull? We drop just to pick up again.

And when you see for yourself, there is no doubt...

The wider question, which you have indeed touched upon, is what exactly is ego. So in a metaphysical sense, what is thought, body, emotion, consciousness, senses. This is the subject of some religions. Even without this inquiry, regardless of how we define "ego", I'm not suggesting an elevation of, or adding to, I'm just suggesting "look, investigate for yourself, sit".

Sure, I see that. Though I think I was just being clear as regards to ego ending rather than being it's own solution. Investigate for sure but from where? Need? Desire for comfort? Truth? You may concur but for general purposes. One problem I think is that truth most likely doesn't bring comfort. On the contrary, often it brings great upheavel but no one wants that, me too. Truth can be very disturbing of course as well liberating.

http://marcbouriche.blogvie.com/files/2011/02/petit-prince-web-2.jpg

“What makes the desert beautiful,' said the little prince, 'is that somewhere it hides a well...”

― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince

Respectfully,
floatzy

I watched this the other day but couldn't concentrate on it but the "I am not tame" bit stuck out. I didn't see how that related to ego though? I shall have to watch it again anyway.

To recap, ego ends in the non personal flame of common sense awareness. Non personal means it cares for truth not comfort. Common sense is not dependant on ego, thankfully.

Best wishes floatz:)

[Uma]

Wow there is a lot of wisdom and really thoughtful sharing going on here!

I have to agree - the heart is everything - "The heart has reasons reason can't deny." The heart gives wings to concepts and also explodes them into what makes life worth living... so I love what running wrote about that on another thread: (link (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=100911))

[Floatsy]

Hi Floatsy m'dears. Second time lucky as just lost my last reply like the big fish that got away you should've seen it!

I hate it when I lose a long response!
If ego, which is sorrow, is stated as a tool to end suffering then it is being touted as useful, as I understand it.

Ego is not sorrow, it's more like a mistaken identity, I understand.

I'm not sure how what I've said contradicts K? Could you elucidate further? Nice little passage btw don't you think? Stay with what you are. Clean your gutter. Don't invent pretty bright lights to dazzle yourself and others whilst remaining in slumber. Most folk escape from sorrow into positivity but reactions contain their opposites of course.

Perhaps salvation occurs when ego ends not because of it. I think there's a very fine and important difference.

Krishnamurti, in encouraging people away from reliance and dogmatism, still points to the flowering of Inner Gnosis.

"Can I understand what is suffering when a part of my mind is running away seeking happiness, seeking a way out of this misery? So must I not, if I am to understand suffering, be completely one with it, not reject it, not justify it, not condemn it, not compare it, but completely be with it and understand it?

The truth of what is happiness will come if I know how to listen. I must know how to listen to suffering; if I can listen to suffering I can listen to happiness because that is what I am."

This is similar to meditation, to inner contemplation, Listening, Silence.

That way is typically through self-Knowledge first. Hence his encouragement to embrace/watch/listen to that which is called "suffering"

Well although I see the crucifixion as an "avatarial" kundalini awakening, it is thought and displayed as a man suffering in agony. Then you have the self whipping and other mortifications of the flesh. But here really, if ego (which is sorrow) is touted as a tool then it's being promoted as useful and I don't believe it is so. Common sense ends sorrow. Common sense is not personal and does not require an ego. In fact I'd say it operates better w/o one. So, I'm saying ego has no place in ending itself. That's for common sense to see it's pointlessness or downright mischief and so it fizzles out w/o no action on it whatsoever.

I have never thought suffering needs to be raised to any level above just the reality of day to day living. When one is uncomfortable, unhappy, or simply not at peace of dissatisfied, that is all the beckoning needed.

I don't see ego as sorrow, but I do think it is a tool which is running the other way around, so it is not a truly peaceful ship.

Yes fair enough indeed on fizzling out w/no action on it whatsoever :smile: A hard job but a very easy outcome, once attained.

So do you still hold that ego is a tool? I can see the line we're walking but it's like the Golden Age concept. It annoys me (my bag) when folk say and imply that the Golden Age is coming. It's as if it's a forgone conclusion and therefore we can rest on our laurels=suffering is fine because it'll end up as enlightenment. But it's got to end it can't transform.

I haven't seen any teachers teach complacency (myself).

Sounds good. I'm all for internal investigation. Theories are psychological of course. I don't like the idea of seeker as he is ego and cannot do himself good. The seeker will find according to the concept he wishes to exemplify but will it be truth? I do not seek to end ego and I suggest the same for you. The desire prevents it's ending. We're sooooo used to acting on stuff aren't we? Me too. We just can't leave it be. We feel a problem and seek to end it or cover over it. The seeing, or understanding, is the doing. That doesn't demand comfort and so is not succeptible to personal whim.

If you say so.

The heart stuff to me is intangible and up in the air. Make statements on it and we can go into it. Energy must flow through all systems, physical, emotional and mental and blocks anywhere is obviously no good. Many folk would come to Krishnamurti for healing (many would be allowed to sit at the front of a talk as this was often sufficient) but he said that you can heal people physically endlessly, unless they drop the concepts they live by illness will return. The mind/thoughts narrows down the heart. Their intricacies must be understood. It's a little more arduous that heart chakra talk I'm afraid.

I never accepted nor do I accept "concepts" until they are known by me Inwardly first. Krishnamurti must have understood the need to utilize concepts and words to teach, and so he did.

Supposedly a highly advanced yogi with many siddhis including levitation came to see K. No doubt his heart chakra was pretty wide open and kundalini was active more than average but he left K with the comment, "I would give up all the siddhis for one glimpse of Nirvana." So folk can keep their kundalini and open hearts because from where I'm sat they've changed diddlesquat really. It is the concepts that block. But that is more arduous. The heart will open automatically when mental ill health is removed. Which we all have no? We are not aware of the mess we live in I don't think. Many, if not all, folk who do Ayahuasca (not encouraging) are often shocked at their daily behaviour and how they have been treating others. Forgive us father for we know not what we say. Fact unfortunately.

Nibbana is peace, other variations of consciousness I have no doubt are interesting but are not necessarily that.

Generally when we look inside (which may not be the case here) we're just inventing another authority. We drop the authorities of the fake gurus whilst inadvertently making ourselves high priest of our own personal religion. Ego finding it's way into this lovely no ego talk (shhhh it's trying to go unnoticed). Ego loves a bit of seeking, a bit of lets drop ego and all that. Do you think being your own authority is helpfull? We drop just to pick up again.

Nothing can be said when you put it like that. lol

Sure, I see that. Though I think I was just being clear as regards to ego ending rather than being it's own solution. Investigate for sure but from where? Need? Desire for comfort? Truth? You may concur but for general purposes. One problem I think is that truth most likely doesn't bring comfort. On the contrary, often it brings great upheavel but no one wants that, me too. Truth can be very disturbing of course as well liberating.

If you say so.

I watched this the other day but couldn't concentrate on it but the "I am not tame" bit stuck out. I didn't see how that related to ego though? I shall have to watch it again anyway.

It's OK - my style was never to force myself to understand - when it came, it was usually more real.

To recap, ego ends in the non personal flame of common sense awareness. Non personal means it cares for truth not comfort. Common sense is not dependant on ego, thankfully.

I would disagree but to each his own.

Best wishes floatz:)

All back to you.

Namaste.

[Arcturus]

Last thoughts. Ego seems to me to be a conglomeration of past experiences and I wonder if the present can be met by the past? Ego seems to prevent me living in the moment because it comes to situations and the present with past hurts and conclusions. I should remember who is dangerous but should I store hate or resentment for it.

Regarding the mind, it is that which decides whether or not to store past hurts. I see the aura as where memories are stored and is mostly generated by the heart but it is my mind that says you must carry this because it has been brought up to reject anything other than what is deemed OK, even if it's not physically dangerous. I must remember who is dangerous but to store that as resentment is foolish.

Can I come to each moment afresh w/o the burden of past hurts, antagonisms and "mistaken identities", so that I can live each second as if it were my first? Perhaps the question is more important than the answer as it doesn't posit and so limit.

[Miss Hepburn]

Ya know, A Course In Miracles (ACIM) is entirely about 'ego';
what it does, it's entire thought system....how it creates trouble
and separation and guilt...and on and on...
The Course (a self study, contemplating a diff sentence each day for a year)...really
gets a person out of the egoic mind set !

I never knew what this ACIM was...so thought I would mention it
to this crowd.

Didn't know if people knew what ACIM was. It's not for everyone, for sure.
:smile:


Oh, I should mention for those that are or are not into Jesus or messages sent from him,
it is 'directly' from Jesus....not some made up study course by someone.
Each page is full of incredible wisdom, insight and crystal clear guidance...revolving
around ''this place'' not being real...and what is Real...and it is not the ego, lol !

[django]

Ya know, A Course In Miracles (ACIM) is entirely about 'ego';
what it does, it's entire thought system....how it creates trouble
and separation and guilt...and on and on...
The Course (a self study, contemplating a diff sentence each day for a year)...really
gets a person out of the egoic mind set !

I never knew what this ACIM was...so thought I would mention it
to this crowd.

Didn't know if people knew what ACIM was. It's not for everyone, for sure.
:smile:


Oh, I should mention for those that are or are not into Jesus or messages sent from him,
it is 'directly' from Jesus....not some made up study course by someone.
Each page is full of incredible wisdom, insight and crystal clear guidance...revolving
around ''this place'' not being real...and what is Real...and it is not the ego, lol !

Of course it is directly from Jesus only if you accept that channeling is authentic, if you don't, then it is more likely some made up study course, with the source being someone's conscious or possibly subconscious mind...

[Gem]

Of course it is directly from Jesus only if you accept that channeling is authentic, if you don't, then it is more likely some made up study course, with the source being someone's conscious or possibly subconscious mind...

I don't see how 'accepting' it is so makes it actually so.

[Floatsy]

Don't see how rejection makes it so either.

[Gem]

Don't see how rejection makes it so either.

What reason is there to believe it is so?

[Floatsy]

You know that belief and disbelief are the same quantity right? :smile:

[django]

I don't see how 'accepting' it is so makes it actually so.

Well I do agree, I could have been a lot clearer in my post. It is as it is of course, it is our beliefs that affect what we perceive to be the likely source.

[Miss Hepburn]

Of course it is directly from Jesus only if you accept that channeling is authentic,
if you don't, then it is more likely some made up study course,
with the source being someone's conscious or possibly subconscious mind... This is an expected statement.
Reading a little bit would aid in knowing whether it rang true or not.
Trusting your own sensibilities would be essential, naturally.

[Gem]

You know that belief and disbelief are the same quantity right? :smile:

The 'question' has more of the assured quality of a statement, so I don't consider it to be a sincere question and will treat it as a statement.

It's not an accurate statement. Not believing in the author's claim is the absence of the quantity that constructs the belief.

You provided no reason when I requested, so I assume you have no reason to believe the author's claim.

[Gem]

Well I do agree, I could have been a lot clearer in my post. It is as it is of course, it is our beliefs that affect what we perceive to be the likely source.
Well, all I can say is, if you believe that one you'd believe near enough anything. :wink:

The implication that it's 'sensibility' is ironic ay.

[naturesflow]

I don't see how 'accepting' it is so makes it actually so.

When something resonates and someone is connected to that resonation that they make a stand out for them and perhaps lots of others, it stands out as being something quite certain and sure as a stand out for them compared to others sources. But it just seems to me, that is just a resonation, that if one is not attached it would end in every way, other than what is built through that resonation in self without holding onto ideas about it through the mind itself? When we are certain that we know and understand something that is really only as certain and a stand out as the one holding onto it as so, then wouldn't that mean that all knowledge shared would be valid as each piece and how it associates itself?And if the person identified as someone important relating the wisdom/knowledge becomes someone established as the *one* source of importance, then in this way, it would become a belief pertaining to the knowledge and attached in the mind as such? So whatever you hold onto as being so? Hold proof, hold others as the *one* source that is sure, pure and important, then is that not creating a beliefs that limit the view of deeper awareness and less mind attached, to allow source to be an open source in self without any attachments?



I am not sure if that is ego related or just when the mind believes itself and makes it's own mind up about something sourced and using the source as a way to enforce something in their own mind against something else?

I have no idea, in all honesty. So don't believe me in my musings and how I see and relate in me.

[naturesflow]

PS..I altered it a bit because when it first flowed out of me it was a little skewed, but it feels a little more clear now.

[Baile]

Well, all I can say is, if you believe that one you'd believe near enough anything. :wink:

The implication that it's 'sensibility' is ironic ay.So putting aside your sarcasm and your invalidation of his understanding, what's your understanding? How to get rid of the ego? Eliminate guffawing responses to others' posts, and reply instead with a respectful and thoughtful counter-view would be a good start.

Getting rid of the ego is impossible as the ego is one particular aspect of the human being and of being human. Without an ego, we'd all be zombies essentially. The idea rather is to ensure the ego is utilized in a helpful, holistic way, always. The path to achieve that is via inner self-understanding and self-realization.

[naturesflow]

So putting aside your sarcasm and your invalidation of his understanding, what's your understanding? How to get rid of the ego? Eliminate guffawing responses to others' posts, and reply instead with a respectful and thoughtful counter-view would be a good start.

Getting rid of the ego is impossible as the ego is one particular aspect of the human being and being human. Without an ego, we'd all be zombies essentially. The idea rather is to ensure the ego is utilized in a helpful, holistic way, always. The path to achieve that is via inner self-understanding.





Do not discuss the faults of others. Realize that their “faults” are actually your own impure projections ~Jamgon Kontrul Rinpoche

[naturesflow]

everything is worthy ~ running

[naturesflow]

Well I do agree, I could have been a lot clearer in my post. It is as it is of course, it is our beliefs that affect what we perceive to be the likely source.

Total self reflection is often difficult for those that still use some kind of external means to perceive what is moving as a source of themselves, creating all that which is moving through them as themselves. When beliefs fall away, who is at play?

Which takes me to the place, where time space and source are irrelevant to the nature of what is right now you creating all this. Well me in this moment of this piece here typing this.

[Gem]

So putting aside your sarcasm and your invalidation of his understanding, what's your understanding? How to get rid of the ego? Eliminate guffawing responses to others' posts, and reply instead with a respectful and thoughtful counter-view would be a good start.

There's no reason given to believe the claim and it's not 'sensible' to believe it. It's just a wild claim. Hepburns implication of 'sensibility' is an influential tact. The problem is, using His name to weigh the work with undue credibility (ironic that) - to unduly imbue the work with Truth - is a highly coercive ploy. It's problematic on several levels.

Getting rid of the ego is impossible as the ego is one particular aspect of the human being and of being human. Without an ego, we'd all be zombies essentially. The idea rather is to ensure the ego is utilized in a helpful, holistic way, always. The path to achieve that is via inner self-understanding and self-realization.

[Gem]

When something resonates and someone is connected to that resonation that they make a stand out for them and perhaps lots of others, it stands out as being something quite certain and sure as a stand out for them compared to others sources.

The claim that it's His words is not sensible in anyway. Quite the contrary.

[quote]But it just seems to me, that is just a resonation, that if one is not attached it would end in every way, other than what is built through that resonation in self without holding onto ideas about it through the mind itself?

Claiming it's His word just plays on false hope.

When we are certain that we know and understand something that is really only as certain and a stand out as the one holding onto it as so, then wouldn't that mean that all knowledge shared would be valid as each piece and how it associates itself?

Maybe the author is a Christian, which seems likely, but that's all we can reasonably infer.

And if the person identified as someone important relating the wisdom/knowledge becomes someone established as the *one* source of importance, then in this way, it would become a belief pertaining to the knowledge and attached in the mind as such? So whatever you hold onto as being so? Hold proof, hold others as the *one* source that is sure, pure and important, then is that not creating a beliefs that limit the view of deeper awareness and less mind attached, to allow source to be an open source in self without any attachments?

Since no one has provided a reason, it can't be considered sensible. Read it critically if one must, but don't be sucked in by the 'power' of His word. Be sensible about it. Some parts might resonate, some others might not. Don't be blinded by the Jesus storyinto taking it as Truth.

^that's sensible. ^.

I am not sure if that is ego related or just when the mind believes itself and makes it's own mind up about something sourced and using the source as a way to enforce something in their own mind against something else?

I have no idea, in all honesty. So don't believe me in my musings and how I see and relate in me.

I relate in an easy way. Belief in it is blind faith - unless of course anyone can provide a valid reason (no one can).

Er... why am I even engaging with such a silly thing?:confused2:

[7luminaries]

In no way to sidetrack the interesting exchange above...and I've enjoyed this thread in its entirety....

I just thought I'd note what I feel was a very central concept for the thread on ego and the healing of ego (rather than the vanquishing of it), so that we can lead our lives from a more balanced place.

Can I come to each moment afresh w/o the burden of past hurts, antagonisms and "mistaken identities", so that I can live each second as if it were my first? Perhaps the question is more important than the answer as it doesn't posit and so limit.

I agree...it's the question that's worth serious reflection.

Peace and blessings all :hug3:
7L

[Floatsy]

You provided no reason when I requested, so I assume you have no reason to believe the author's claim.

I haven't read the book, but I would not disrespect what others wish or see in it. What is important is how things help each other along the path, the judgement is only secondary, or is it not, Gem? :smile:

Blessings (no gooey stuff intended)

[django]

As far as I can see, all good psychological and spiritual work should ultimately lead to persona and ego examination and death to be replaced by mature persona and ego.

Mature persona and ego create an extension in the central channel rooted in heart energy that enables our limited consciousness to cross the void to full consciousness.

[naturesflow]

[/COLOR][/SIZE] Er... why am I even engaging with such a silly thing?:confused2:


Tis the monkey mind stuff erupting. Monkey see, monkey do..:wink:

[naturesflow]

As far as I can see, all good psychological and spiritual work should ultimately lead to persona and ego examination and death to be replaced by mature persona and ego.

Mature persona and ego create an extension in the central channel rooted in heart energy that enables our limited consciousness to cross the void to full consciousness.


The fullness of being, does it have to be mature or can it just be?

Otherwise your showing some important stuff.

[Gem]

[/b]


Tis the monkey mind stuff erupting. Monkey see, monkey do..:wink:
It was because I was giggly about the silly Jesus thing and then people supported it as viable!!! :icon_eek: OMG!

[Gem]

I haven't read the book, but I would not disrespect what others wish or see in it. What is important is how things help each other along the path, the judgement is only secondary, or is it not, Gem? :smile:

Blessings (no gooey stuff intended)

Please, I'd prefer not the be addressed with 'blessings' - and I don't like loaded 'questions'.

[naturesflow]

It was because I was giggly about the silly Jesus thing and then people supported it a viable!!! :icon_eek: OMG!

Its good to laugh these things off when others require to believe in these things themselves. It does serve the one attuned and requiring it only for themselves.

Which leads me contemplate the nature of spiritual intervention or channelling itself. I recall through my own process where I had both happening at once, I made every spirit being felt in me someone I knew that was familiar and known to me, which served me temporarily in letting go of my conditioned mind, to *KNOW*. I felt safe knowing that I made the presence of spirit be someone I knew.

Now where I reside, I realize I created all that to be so at the time, I required it to be so. But as more opened in me, all that, although it occurred at one time, was really only showing me myself and my beliefs and what I created in the nature of spirit and my channellings in my knowing THUS FAR.

Now when I LISTEN. I am only LISTENING to the presence of what is before me, remaining open and allowing without attaching.

It serves me well, being open and aware of myself in this way now.

(And so Jesus although I channelled through his presence in me through my heart space, he only served me for a time because I realized their was more. Then when I got to the God voice, I channelled from there for a time that served me and others for a time, then when I got to the oneness of all life as one, I just be me and do ma thing..lol )

[naturesflow]

Its good to laugh these things off.

When others require to believe in these things themselves that is about them.

(I had to retype that as I felt it sounded rude in how I wrote it initially, yet I didn't mean it to sound or read rude, just how it came out unexpectedly)

[ocean breeze]

There is a fast way of getting rid of ego. But typing that may get me in trouble.

[naturesflow]

There is a fast way of getting rid of ego. But typing that may get me in trouble.


After the ego has perished,
the true self rises from its dust
like desert flowers
after spring showers
have swept across arid plains.

(The Tao is Tao, 21)


Why on earth would such a place get you into trouble if you typed it ?

[Gem]

Its good to laugh these things off when others require to believe in these things themselves. It does serve the one attuned and requiring it only for themselves.

Which leads me contemplate the nature of spiritual intervention or channelling itself. I recall through my own process where I had both happening at once, I made every spirit being felt in me someone I knew that was familiar and known to me, which served me temporarily in letting go of my conditioned mind, to *KNOW*. I felt safe knowing that I made the presence of spirit be someone I knew.

Now where I reside, I realize I created all that to be so at the time, I required it to be so. But as more opened in me, all that, although it occurred at one time, was really only showing me myself and my beliefs and what I created in the nature of spirit and my channellings in my knowing THUS FAR.

Now when I LISTEN. I am only LISTENING to the presence of what is before me, remaining open and allowing without attaching.

It serves me well, being open and aware of myself in this way now.

(And so Jesus although I channelled through his presence in me through my heart space, he only served me for a time because I realized their was more. Then when I got to the God voice, I channelled from there for a time that served me and others for a time, then when I got to the oneness of all life as one, I just be me and do ma thing..lol )
When people say they channel Jesus I assume they're lying or under a sort of delusion. It's wasted on me entirely, mainly because even it were true it makes no difference to me.

The problem with such things is, people do believe that sort of thing and it positions the claimer in a highly influential and powerful position over them. People will even drink the Kool-Aid. People who know what they do understand this sort of dilemma.

[naturesflow]

When people say they channel Jesus I assume they're lying or under a sort of delusion. It's wasted on me entirely, mainly because even it were true it makes no difference to me.

The problem with such things is, people do believe that sort of thing and it positions the claimer in a highly influential and powerful position. People will even drink the Kool-Aid. Person who know what they do understand this sort of dilemma.

People believe and attach to much so yes this can happen. Just as I am aware of my own through my own process and what it created in me, in so many deluded ways of God and Jesus and everything related. I am with you, it makes no difference to me either. I trust my own process and knowing through what comes through my own experience from within me. Simply using any external reflections as a point of contemplation from within me to find my own answers and knowing.

Much of my own delusion was because of attachments in me and it was frantic to unfold, at times terrifying for me, so I know that it is important to be aware of how, too much external input with attachments in this way, can overwhelm this kind of awakening process. So being mindful of this is important I feel, to allow people just to feel and let go.

[Gem]

People believe and attach to much so yes this can happen. Just as I am aware of my own through my own process and what it created in me, in so many deluded ways of God and Jesus and everything related. I am with you, it makes no difference to me either. I trust my own process and knowing through what comes through my own experience from within me. Simply using any external reflections as a point of contemplation from within me to find my own answers and knowing.

Much of my own delusion was because of attachments in me and it was frantic to unfold, at times terrifying for me, so I know that it is important to be aware of how, too much external input with attachments in this way, can overwhelm this kind of awakening process. So being mindful of this is important I feel, to allow people just to feel and let go.

I imagine the person who, for instance, believed that book is direct from Jesus where there is no reason to, must be persuaded by a a real hope, which makes said person quite vulnerable, and susceptible. Spiritual people want everything to be nice, but it's often not a sincere goodness where people's own needs go unchecked when what appears as 'trying to help' is often sating ones own need to be appreciated. Personally, I do not like being thanked in the sense that someone was sated and is grateful for what they gained. I like to be appreciated regardless of what anyone gets out of it, just for being around. I appreciate people for who they are, not because of their attachments to Jesus, monks, gurus, teachers and what have you. I find all of these spiritual artifacts to be barriers to real communication. It seems like I'm getting off the track, but my thought-nform isn't exactly tracked. I only really know what I'm saying now, but there is big difference between trust and that faith which involves the blind belief in 'direct Jesus' or whatever. This persuasion into some power authority attached to text is like something we have to surpass even to speak sincerely at all. How much of what gets said is sincere compared to that said because it 'sounds spiritual'. Look at a quote thread for example, repeating old dead guys' things. It's nice, but not a real exchange. We go right past these 'things that are true' when we slip into that stream of actually listening and responding. I mean, getting rid of ego... in terms of 'how'... what fanciful instruction should I obey on the premise of another guruic authority or book, who's main persuasion is His? How could I, for example, even be heard by one who double checks all I say against older teachings that supposedly are 'true'? When one filters what they say against older teachings of knowledge, are thay actually speaking? People who 'know' neither listen or speak, and exist like echo chambers that resound the peals of yesterday.

This means, the name of Jesus can only subdue the truth that arises through free expression. When the authority of that voice is internalised one loses vitality as they start to be self-regulated by their internal authority construct. This means these psychologically constructed internalised spiritual masters become obstacles to person's spontaneous expressions, and are thus to be considered an obstacle to be overcome, so that YOU may really move more freely in self expression.

[naturesflow]

I imagine the person who, for instance, believed that book is direct from Jesus where there is no reason to, must be persuaded by a a real hope, which makes said person quite vulnerable, and susceptible. Spiritual people want everything to be nice, but it's often not a sincere goodness where people's own needs go unchecked when what appears as 'trying to help' is often sating ones own need to be appreciated. Personally, I do not like being thanked in the sense that someone was sated and is grateful for what they gained. I like to be appreciated regardless of what anyone gets out of it, just for being around. I appreciate people for who they are, not because of their attachments to Jesus, monks, gurus, teachers and what have you. I find all of these spiritual artifacts to be barriers to real communication.

You make a good point about these kind of things creating barriers. I try to get to know the person, but often I find these kind of limitations do pose a barrier that affects the connection in some form, unless of course you just stay in the zone and barrier and not try to move beyond that point when it arises, but it can be difficult as most often it runs as a thread through the whole of the person in some way, showing itself through a range of relating. Anyway I understand about the openness of sharing real communication. That is important to me as well. But I am aware of others and their barriers and limitations so I don't fuss too much about it, just more get on with why I like and enjoy being here and share as it falls.

I like what you say about being appreciated for just being around, that is a really valid point. For me it is enough just being myself and sharing and being in place of interest to me, so I suppose I just move in this way most often. I mean my focus was always to just be me even through all my spiritual fandangled ways over many years, I realize this now. My journey opened me to see that I was wanting to accept and meet myself more complete, more open and free from all that I thought I required to be me. The more real I got with myself, the more real life became in everyway life is. My mind doesn't entertain me now like it used too. If anything I feel richer in myself and more aware of life, free of clutter. I realize life is really just about listening. Everything supports me when I listen and allow myself to move and be moved in this way. I don't have to give name to what I am listening too, creating as, just be me and enjoy life this way.


It seems like I'm getting off the track, but my thought-nform isn't exactly tracked. I only really know what I'm saying now, but there is big difference between trust and that faith which involves the blind belief in 'direct Jesus' or whatever.

Yes I think you offer something really valuable in that trust and faith is really the main carrier that gets you through, when you take out all these notions of faith being related to something, other than just having faith itself. I suppose for me when I was wandering around in my dark night, afraid and realizing it wasn't Jesus or God coming to save me, it was faith and trust in the unknown awakening, where their was nothing to hold onto anymore in what I believed as such. I was being moved away from the spiritual that I had always leaned on in and hoped would be there for me in my time of need, but my learning was to open to the reality of myself in everyway I was holding on *up there* to get back *Down here* and live and get real... I was being shown to open up to real people who came with real support, in my time of need. People who understood what I needed in the moment, people who came unexpected and supported me just as I required. This was the faith I was being shown to build in me. Not in something created by religion or spiritual teachings. When the mind lets go of what is just the presence of what is, everything changes from what you mind thinks. This was real life and real support that I had to relearn and recreate all over again and know that I now live with a creation in part now as a mystery, one that I don't need to solve, one that supports me here and now as life is, as I am and choose to be. What was is past, is now just what is right now. This present moment, so I try just to live it fully and get on with my life..


This persuasion into some power authority attached to text is like something we have to surpass even to speak sincerely at all. How much of what gets said is sincere compared to that said because it 'sounds spiritual'. Look at a quote thread for example, repeating old dead guys' things.

Hey I post there....:tongue:

Old dead guys things lol...that made me laugh out loud.


It's nice, but not a real exchange. We go right past these 'things that are true' when we slip into that stream of actually listening and responding. I mean, getting rid of ego... in terms of 'how'... what fanciful instruction should I obey on the premise of another guruic authority or book, who's main persuasion is His? How could I, for example, even be heard by one who double checks all I say against older teachings that supposedly are 'true'? When one filters what they say against older teachings of knowledge, are thay actually speaking? People who 'know' neither listen or speak, and exist like echo chambers that resound the peals of yesterday.

Well my lesson was to get real in my most dramatic shedding stages, so all you say makes sense to me. I don't do checks, god no, I don't have the energy, nor reason too. I do read things and find things I like and relate too, but often its for my own reflections as I am building more awareness or deepening something new.

Its a bit like me with the Buddhism threads. I read all those things posted by Floatsy and think, there is too much, yet I am interested to learn things I don't know, but just reading text and not engaging is almost like running blind through a zen garden maze for me at times.

This means, the name of Jesus can only subdue the truth that arises through free expression. When the authority of that voice is internalised one loses vitality as they start to be self-regulated by their internal authority construct. This means these psychologically constructed internalised spiritual masters become obstacles to person's spontaneous expressions, and are thus to be considered an obstacle to be overcome, so that YOU may really move more freely in self expression

Yes, that's it. I have been trying to articulate this for weeks and you just placed it out as I have been feeling it in me. I just don't have to articulation like you do at times but you it struck a chord that answered what I have been feeling. :)

[naturesflow]

When the authority of that voice is internalised one loses vitality as they start to be self-regulated by their internal authority construct. This means these psychologically constructed internalised spiritual masters become obstacles to person's spontaneous expressions, and are thus to be considered an obstacle to be overcome, so that YOU may really move more freely in self expression

This is really quite a profound awareness and one that I feel is really important to the nature of being more open and in touch with the fullness of being one's true self. I had to come back and highlight it again.. (your not old dead man yet Gem, so I guess I can lol )

[naturesflow]

I wonder if in some ways that internal authority construct is really just another form of giving one self permission to just be a certain way ? Meaning while one is holding onto a reason for being, the reason starts to show more than the person themselves at times in this way? Which is often how I see this playing out at times. I wonder if while we still associate spirituality as something *otherworldly* and not as part of our integration to just be ourselves, whether we really do in fact lose a part of that free self expression that is housed within all that. In some ways this shows me that many of those caught up in this way, may in fact be oblivious to what they can open to in themselves more naturally and more in flow with themselves spontaneously, yes it seems to be as you say...Anything is possible I guess.

In some ways this kind of opens up the nature of *not wanting to be seen fully* aspect that I know so well in my own process, but rather using a source to identify yourself with that makes it ok to feel safe and connected and seen that way? Yet really when all that falls away their is only *you* to be you and be seen. I guess that is scary for some - no reason for being you and seen that way?

SO makes me ponder further now in why attachments become our source of being. We cannot fully know how it feels to be true to self until we let go fully of everything that we hold within our own minds as a reason for being so other than life itself.


Hmmm think you have got my deeper understanding's of my own process and others of late out of me and a little more clearer now.

[Curious-one]

The more you have ego the worst you behave, the more you love will take away the ego. curious-one

[naturesflow]

The more you have ego the worst you behave, the more you love will take away the ego. curious-one


What do you class as "worse you behave?" curious one. I am curious to know more..

[Shivani Devi]

What do you class as "worse you behave?" curious one. I am curious to know more..In my case, I tend to just say exactly what I think/feel without realising how this will affect another, because that just 'isn't there' anymore and I'm copping it from the universe as a result. It's time I stopped fighting against my ego and just drop it.

neti...neti...

[naturesflow]

In my case, I tend to just say exactly what I think/feel without realising how this will affect another, because that just 'isn't there' anymore and I'm copping it from the universe as a result. It's time I stopped fighting against my ego and just drop it.

neti...neti...


What do you mean you don't realize how you affect others? Do you mean you have lost all care and that you believe that you have to affect others only a certain way by being you?
how are you copping it from the universe?

[Shivani Devi]

What do you mean you don't realize how you affect others? Do you mean you have lost all care and that you believe that you have to affect others only a certain way by being you?
how are you copping it from the universe?Not really this way...

I'm pretty abrupt, crass and 'pull no punches' when it comes to explaining how I feel, because that is who I am. Who ever said that a 'spiritually advanced soul' needs to speak using beautiful words and positive affirmations and loving, guiding speech? Apparently, many do. Many believe that a real spiritual person wouldn't tell them to 'get a grip' or swear or behave like a 'gutter-mouthed urchin' because that shows 'your soul is still trapped on a lower-energy vibration' or something like that...fiddlesticks!

I've been reminded that a lot of spiritual people have 'sensitive ears' and could find my comments somewhat offensive, even though it wasn't my intent to offend in the first place...let's just say that diplomacy isn't my strong suit and never was. I thought that 'raising my vibration' may change all that, but nope...to which others just may say 'that's because you haven't raised your energies high enough'...I mean, how far do they want me to go when I've gone as far as it's gonna take me?

It's like a dog chasing its tail.

[naturesflow]

Not really this way...

I'm pretty abrupt, crass and 'pull no punches' when it comes to explaining how I feel, because that is who I am. Who ever said that a 'spiritually advanced soul' needs to speak using beautiful words and positive affirmations and loving, guiding speech? Apparently, many do. Many believe that a real spiritual person wouldn't tell them to 'get a grip' or swear or behave like a 'gutter-mouthed urchin' because that shows 'your soul is still trapped on a lower-energy vibration' or something like that...fiddlesticks!

Fair enough. You just sound very direct in this regard. I have had to learn to articulate myself as time has gone by. When I was young into my later life, I couldn't express myself or string two lines together so I know myself, in how it can be a someone struggling with any kind of appropriate means to express themselves. Now of course, I see that opening up all of myself to let go and just be me, without fear, just trusting in myself, that something amazing transpired. I found my carefree nature once again, that just allowed herself to flow more freely. I am more direct now in myself because I see how much more freeing it is in me to be this way. I am also real about myself and life around me. So when I have a houseful of bikies or car crazed men, spouting off in glitter gutter ways, drinking beer and talking cars. I don't look at them as being anything but themselves. I just get to know them and relate as I want to relate to them. And just let them be themselves. I like getting to know people for real. And funny thing is in this way of my world, I find, that almost anyone in my world, that I actually take time to get to know as they are, often turn out to be the most wonderful human beings who inspire me to continue to just be me.

I've been reminded that a lot of spiritual people have 'sensitive ears' and could find my comments somewhat offensive, even though it wasn't my intent to offend in the first place...let's just say that diplomacy isn't my strong suit and never was. I thought that 'raising my vibration' may change all that, but nope...to which others just may say 'that's because you haven't raised your energies high enough'...I mean, how far do they want me to go when I've gone as far as it's gonna take me?

If people are living more open and aware of themselves then I would imagine that they would self reflect in the immediate moment and ask themselves what it is that strikes that chord as being offensive to them. I often find that free spirited nature is often shown to be less compassionate, less aware, showing less respect and so forth. Yet as an all encompassing understanding of yourself being more open and being you, that is something I have proved time and time again with all kinds of people in my world is simply not true. I don't let my offensiveness lead me. More let my free spirit lead me so that naturally allows others to feel that in me.

Most spiritual people are trying to free themselves to free everything in them to utilize it all as part of just being themselves anyway. They don't always know this, but ultimately this is what *free spirit* in the totality of being yourself means to me now. Fear makes people make others need to be something other than what they are, I wonder why? Perhaps because when we cant relate or don't know, we don't go there..:wink:
I try to relate openly to all in my world, but if the other restrains me in any way, I see what they offer in the connection in this way and it does make it hard to not be open more naturally and more free spirited. This shows me their own binds, so I often don't pursue it to hard, because their barriers continually come up over and over, so it just becomes hard work in relating..When I listen to know, I will just let go, sometimes I push through, most times I push through, but sometimes I know not too. I trust my intuition in this way which helps me to know.

It's like a dog chasing its tail.

[naturesflow]

The other thing is some people don't have the normal filters to know how not to be themselves and close off parts of themselves to suit others. It is near impossible for them. They are good teachers for me more often than not in acceptance of others as they come and are.

[Shivani Devi]

The other thing is some people don't have the normal filters to know how not to be themselves and close off parts of themselves to suit others. It is near impossible for them. They are good teachers for me more often than not in acceptance of others as they come and are.Yes and the whole problem is that I am also autistic...and trying to be a 'spiritually advanced Aspie' is like pushing marbles uphill with a rake sometimes.

I've learned though, there's that which relates to 'self' and that which relates to 'everybody else' and more often than not, these two things will clash and find themselves at odds with each other.

It's also very lonely and isolating sometimes, knowing that you are the only soul who can actually feel and experience what you do. I was hoping that the whole experience would resolve this issue for me, but later learned that I am somehow 'resisting enlightenment' because I'd lose that sense of somehow 'belonging' and being 'understood' anyway.

It's already happening and I'm not letting it happen...resisting that which seems 'natural' because it's not 'natural' in relation to the material universe.

Also, my guides have told me that instead of trying to tell people who you are not, try telling them all who you are for a change and last night, under their guidance, I typed up a whole summation of my soul to be delivered into the Hindu forum.

Let's just say "I am getting on top of it" because some noses have been put out of joint, because no matter how much of a 'free spirit" I am, social (and forum) rules are just that.

[naturesflow]

Yes and the whole problem is that I am also autistic...and trying to be a 'spiritually advanced Aspie' is like pushing marbles uphill with a rake sometimes.

Yeah I can imagine. Personal struggles in this way you show, shows how we cannot pigeon hole spirituality as needing to be anyway but your own way.

I've learned though, there's that which relates to 'self' and that which relates to 'everybody else' and more often than not, these two things will clash and find themselves at odds with each other.

Yes I understand this in my own experience. I had to make peace with *everybody else's* part in me to open to more of me without that intrusion going on in me. Its not easy, but ultimately you know you best of all.

It's also very lonely and isolating sometimes, knowing that you are the only soul who can actually feel and experience what you do. I was hoping that the whole experience would resolve this issue for me, but later learned that I am somehow 'resisting enlightenment' because I'd lose that sense of somehow 'belonging' and being 'understood' anyway.

Yes sadly it can become very isolating when your experience is your own personal journey and unique self. Sometimes the resolution we seek turns out to be just another window showing us ourselves that we were not ok with or required to let go of something that was not accepting of itself. I think in general we have choices in how far we take our spirituality and journey. The potential of any choice is really only about us and what we need to do and be. My aim was just to be me. I am a very complex arrangement now days, that confuses many people, but within me I know I am a pretty good person and that is all that matters.

It's already happening and I'm not letting it happen...resisting that which seems 'natural' because it's not 'natural' in relation to the material universe.

Yes when you compare yourself in this way, it would naturally open a choice path.. Perhaps if you know your intention, is not to hurt others and you carry that in your natural open self, then I imagine it would shine itself in this way to the world?

Also, my guides have told me that instead of trying to tell people who you are not, try telling them all who you are for a change and last night, under their guidance, I typed up a whole summation of my soul to be delivered into the Hindu forum.

Wow that's awesome if it helped you.
I think showing people who you are is a great place to focus.

Let's just say "I am getting on top of it" because some noses have been put out of joint, because no matter how much of a 'free spirit" I am, social (and forum) rules are just that.

Yes the system and rules of the world will always affect us and its difficult to find the balance when your trying to just be you. I guess when you know the rules up front or know a person more directly you can get a better gauge on how you can be in that space. I am glad your getting on top of it.

It can be a struggle finding the right space to feel at home and also express more freely without too much coming in at you telling you its not right or its wrong, or you cant do that, you cant say that. So I hope your find the balance for you here.

[Shivani Devi]

I find myself always drawn to our 'user titles' on here and the best advice I get around here is from the forum "Masters"...I am just an "Ascender" which is pretty fitting too.

Whoever came up with these names to illustrate the progress along the spiritual path a certain member is at, isn't far wrong.

Edit -Oh dear god, I seem to be a "Master" myself now. lol

[Somnia]

Edit -Oh dear god, I seem to be a "Master" myself now. lol

Welcome to the jungle! :D

[Shivani Devi]

Welcome to the jungle! :DThank you. I did my own little personal and private "yay...go me" before regaining my composure in trying to 'lose my ego'. :D

[naturesflow]

I find myself always drawn to our 'user titles' on here and the best advice I get around here is from the forum "Masters"...I am just an "Ascender" which is pretty fitting too.

Whoever came up with these names to illustrate the progress along the spiritual path a certain member is at, isn't far wrong.

Edit -Oh dear god, I seem to be a "Master" myself now. lol

In a slip of the typing and a momentary glance you have ascended to become a master of all this typing, noticing and hidden disguises....:wink:

(Personally I am trying to master my spelling, its a horrendous at times..lol )

[Shivani Devi]

In a slip of the typing and a momentary glance you have ascended to become a master of all this typing, noticing and hidden disguises....:wink:

(Personally I am trying to master my spelling, its a horrendous at times..lol )
I saw it as a 'sign' of something, but maybe that was just my wishful thinking.

Let's just say thank you for your advice. :hug3:

[Somnia]

(Personally I am trying to master my spelling, its a horrendous at times..lol )

Then God created spellcheck, and he saw that it was good ;P

And thank the Lort because I need it because Wurdz R Hard! ;P

(Yes! I finally put that in my signature quote! Hahahahaha! :D)

[Somnia]

Testing...

ERMAHGERD! There's my signature quote! :D

[naturesflow]

Then God created spellcheck, and he saw that it was good ;P

And thank the Lort because I need it because Wurdz R Hard! ;P

(Yes! I finally put that in my signature quote! Hahahahaha! :D)

lol..Amenz sizzter wurdz that r hard can be wurdz thing in the whole wyd wurdz..(deciper that and you get a minty ):wink:

[Somnia]

"Words that are hard can be worst thing in the whole wide world"

[naturesflow]

"Words that are hard can be worst thing in the whole wide world"

Oopsy no minty for you. You left out Amen sister! :tongue:

[Somnia]

Oopsy no minty for you. You left out Amen sister! :tongue:

LOL...oops...